Another Eucharistic miracle.

[Mountainmike]

Another Eucharistic miracle is under investigation in Argentina on April 11
Holy Week Eucharistic Miracle Under Investigation in Argentina

It will be fascinating to see if forensics confirm the usual pattern observed at for example, tixtla, sokolka , Buenos Aires, legnica ( and even old ones such as lanciano, with exception of white cells)

Which are:

Real human blood
Heart myocardium cells
With white cells showing both trauma and life.
These die and lysewithin hours in vitro.

If so it will be yet another piece of evidence supporting transubstantiation, as the mode of real presence, and with it disproving Darwin using his own words.

 

[paul becke]

Another Eucharistic miracle is under investigation in Argentina on April 11
Holy Week Eucharistic Miracle Under Investigation in Argentina

It will be fascinating to see if forensics confirm the usual pattern observed at for example, tixtla, sokolka , Buenos Aires, legnica ( and even old ones such as lanciano, with exception of white cells)

Which are:

Real human blood
Heart myocardium cells
With white cells showing both trauma and life.
These die and lysewithin hours in vitro.

If so it will be yet another piece of evidence supporting transubstantiation, as the mode of real presence, and with it disproving Darwin using his own words.

I believe they are all AB type, too.

 

[Mountainmike]

I believe they are all AB type, too.

Indeed! But the fact of an inert substance becoming living flesh and blood of any type is miraculous!

 

[chevyontheriver]

... and with it disproving Darwin using his own words.

How so?

 

[Mountainmike]

How so?

Darwin states in his work ( I paraphrase from memory) " if any instance of life were found that was not the result of successive small changes, it would disprove my theory"

Life from no life - bread to flesh -meets darwins own test for disproving his theory!

 

[bbbbbbb]

I find these "eucharistic miracles" to be oxymoronic in the extreme. The dogma of transubstantiation in the Catholic Church clearly asserts that at each and every mass that is celebrated according to the correct formula, the bread truly and really becomes the very flesh of Jesus Christ and the wine really and truly becomes the very blood of Jesus Christ. No exceptions. Each and every time.

However, what we have, by the own admission of the same denomination, is the reality that on extremely rare occasions a miracle of God occurs and the bread truly and really becomes the very flesh of Jesus Christ and the wine really and truly becomes the very blood of Jesus Christ.

Now, that means that every other of the millions and millions of masses that have been performed were either flawed in some way so that the bread truly and really failed to become the very flesh of Jesus Christ and the wine really and truly failed to become the very blood of Jesus Christ or that the dogma itself is seriously wrong and that the bread never becomes physical flesh and the wine never becomes physical blood no matter how much folks wish it to be true.

Which is it?

 

[Mountainmike]

I find these "eucharistic miracles" to be oxymoronic in the extreme. The dogma of transubstantiation in the Catholic Church clearly asserts that at each and every mass that is celebrated according to the correct formula, the bread truly and really becomes the very flesh of Jesus Christ and the wine really and truly becomes the very blood of Jesus Christ. No exceptions. Each and every time.

However, what we have, by the own admission of the same denomination, is the reality that on extremely rare occasions a miracle of God occurs and the bread truly and really becomes the very flesh of Jesus Christ and the wine really and truly becomes the very blood of Jesus Christ.

Now, that means that every other of the millions and millions of masses that have been performed were either flawed in some way so that the bread truly and really failed to become the very flesh of Jesus Christ and the wine really and truly failed to become the very blood of Jesus Christ or that the dogma itself is seriously wrong and that the bread never becomes physical flesh and the wine never becomes physical blood no matter how much folks wish it to be true.

Which is it?

Four issues.

1/ the forensic evidence is beyond reasonable doubt - conducted by labs whose day job is criminal evidence.

2/ your senses are a projection of the real world, not the determinant of it.

3/ if our Lord chooses to manifest the change visibly only occasionally who are you to contest his decision

4/ going back to first Christian times the romans thought Christians were cannibals, demonstrating the prevalent belief of what occurred and interpretation of it,

On what basis do you discount it, not least because I doubt you have even investigated it!

It seems to me - You allow your own dogma to get in the way of objective investigation and judgement,

 

[Phil 1:21]

Reminds me of a crying Virgin Mary statue at a local Catholic store several years ago. Turned out it was a hoax to drum up business. But boy did they sell a lot of stuff before going bankrupt.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Reminds me of a crying Virgin Mary statue at a local Catholic store several years ago. Turned out it was a hoax to drum up business. But boy did they sell a lot of stuff before going bankrupt.

Yes, sadly, it happens all to often. A few years ago a young man at the local health club had a miraculous image of the Virgin of Guadalupe on his torso. It turned out to be a tattoo.

Four issues.

1/ the forensic evidence is beyond reasonable doubt - conducted by labs whose day job is criminal evidence.

2/ your senses are a projection of the real world, not the determinant of it.

3/ if our Lord chooses to manifest the change visibly only occasionally who are you to contest his decision

4/ going back to first Christian times the romans thought Christians were cannibals, demonstrating the prevalent belief of what occurred and interpretation of it,

On what basis do you discount it, not least because I doubt you have even investigated it!

It seems to me - You allow your own dogma to get in the way of objective investigation and judgement,

I don't need to discount or necessarily accept this assertion. This ought to be a no-brainer for everyone, especially Catholics, concerned. The simple fact is that the Catholic Church clearly teaches that at each and every mass that is celebrated according to the correct formula, the bread truly and really becomes the very flesh of Jesus Christ and the wine really and truly becomes the very blood of Jesus Christ. No exceptions. Each and every time.

Do you believe this or don't you?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Darwin states in his work ( I paraphrase from memory) " if any instance of life were found that was not the result of successive small changes, it would disprove my theory"

Life from no life - bread to flesh -meets darwins own test for disproving his theory!

Not so sure this is sufficient. If the starting material was not organic and biological to begin with that would be more significant. Also more significant would be an unconsecrated host. The host, being consecrated, is ontologically already different than an unconsecrated host. I'm not sure Darwin is relevant at all to the discussion.

 

[Mountainmike]

Not so sure this is sufficient. If the starting material was not organic and biological to begin with that would be more significant. Also more significant would be an unconsecrated host. The host, being consecrated, is ontologically already different than an unconsecrated host. I'm not sure Darwin is relevant at all to the discussion.

I was just being mischievous - using Darwins words against him!

 

[Mountainmike]

I clearly do believe it.

As for the lady of Guadalupe, no amount of forgeries make an original any less real - the number of pious forgeries is a falasy when used as an argument against genuine phenomena.

Yes, sadly, it happens all to often. A few years ago a young man at the local health club had a miraculous image of the Virgin of Guadalupe on his torso. It turned out to be a tattoo.


I don't need to discount or necessarily accept this assertion. This ought to be a no-brainer for everyone, especially Catholics, concerned. The simple fact is that the Catholic Church clearly teaches that at each and every mass that is celebrated according to the correct formula, the bread truly and really becomes the very flesh of Jesus Christ and the wine really and truly becomes the very blood of Jesus Christ. No exceptions. Each and every time.

Do you believe this or don't you?

 

[Mountainmike]

Reminds me of a crying Virgin Mary statue at a local Catholic store several years ago. Turned out it was a hoax to drum up business. But boy did they sell a lot of stuff before going bankrupt.

Which is irrelevant.
Study the forensic evidence on its own merits.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Four issues.

1/ the forensic evidence is beyond reasonable doubt - conducted by labs whose day job is criminal evidence.

2/ your senses are a projection of the real world, not the determinant of it.

3/ if our Lord chooses to manifest the change visibly only occasionally who are you to contest his decision

4/ going back to first Christian times the romans thought Christians were cannibals, demonstrating the prevalent belief of what occurred and interpretation of it,

On what basis do you discount it, not least because I doubt you have even investigated it!

It seems to me - You allow your own dogma to get in the way of objective investigation and judgement,

I don't need to discount or necessarily accept this assertion. This ought to be a no-brainer for everyone, especially Catholics, concerned. The simple fact is that the Catholic Church clearly teaches that at each and every mass that is celebrated according to the correct formula, the bread truly and really becomes the very flesh of Jesus Christ and the wine really and truly becomes the very blood of Jesus Christ. No exceptions. Each and every time.

Do you believe this or don't you?

 

[Mountainmike]

Why the repeat? I answered above.
Just because your senses do not detect "what is" makes no difference to " what is. As a quantum physicist I can tangle you in intellectual knots proving that,

I don't need to discount or necessarily accept this assertion. This ought to be a no-brainer for everyone, especially Catholics, concerned. The simple fact is that the Catholic Church clearly teaches that at each and every mass that is celebrated according to the correct formula, the bread truly and really becomes the very flesh of Jesus Christ and the wine really and truly becomes the very blood of Jesus Christ. No exceptions. Each and every time.

Do you believe this or don't you?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Why the repeat? I answered above.
Just because your senses do not detect "what is" makes no difference to " what is. As a quantum physicist I can tangle you in intellectual knots proving that,

Thanks. I seem to have missed your "Yes" to the question.

Given the fact that you do believe this, then why all the fuss about one out of millions of masses where the bread was transformed into physical flesh and the wine was transformed into physical blood? It happens all the time in the Catholic Church, according to the dogma you profess to believe. Thus, one can go to any Catholic mass and receive the same flesh and blood that was given at the "miraculous" mass in Argentina.

 

[kepha31]

Yes, sadly, it happens all to often. A few years ago a young man at the local health club had a miraculous image of the Virgin of Guadalupe on his torso. It turned out to be a tattoo.


I don't need to discount or necessarily accept this assertion. This ought to be a no-brainer for everyone, especially Catholics, concerned. The simple fact is that the Catholic Church clearly teaches that at each and every mass that is celebrated according to the correct formula, the bread truly and really becomes the very flesh of Jesus Christ and the wine really and truly becomes the very blood of Jesus Christ. No exceptions. Each and every time.

Do you believe this or don't you?

Yes. It's because I have supernatural faith. The accidents (what you perceive with your senses) doesn't change. The substance changes. transubstantiation.
On rare occasion, God allows both the accidents and the substance to change visibly. It's meant for the faithful, not for the faithless.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes. It's because I have supernatural faith. The accidents (what you perceive with your senses) doesn't change. The substance changes. transubstantiation.
On rare occasion, God allows both the accidents and the substance to change visibly. It's meant for the faithful, not for the faithless.

No problem then. You readily admit that at a Catholic mass the bread does remain physical bread and the wine remains physical wine. What changes is your personal perception of them. Thus, I can understand all the fuss when, lo and behold, the bread actually undergoes transubstantion into physical flesh and the wine actually undergoes transubstantiation into physical blood.

 

[kepha31]

No problem then. You readily admit that at a Catholic mass the bread does remain physical bread and the wine remains physical wine. What changes is your personal perception of them.

My personal perception has nothing to do with a change of substance. What Jesus said has everything to with it.

Thus, I can understand all the fuss when, lo and behold, the bread actually undergoes transubstantion into physical flesh and the wine actually undergoes transubstantiation into physical blood.

Because it happens so rarely. The consecrated Bread and Wine are not little separate sacrifices. They are all one and the same, transcending time, with or without dramatic changes in appearance. This was prophesied in Malachi 1:11.
My favorite Eucharistic miracle is San Damiano. 12 centuries of exposure and no sign of decomposition.
Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano

 

[chevyontheriver]

You readily admit that at a Catholic mass the bread does remain physical bread and the wine remains physical wine. What changes is your personal perception of them.

Kind of the opposite of that. The physical perception is (in all but the rare case) the same but we admit that it stops being actual bread and wine. Instead we know it is the body and blood, soul and divinity of Jesus, that is Christ with us.