ANNOUNCEMENT: New Report System Information

[sentipente]

Hi there, jt! How are y'doin?

I got a question for you. I know that in the States, as in the UK, the public can go and sit in on almost any court case and watch the proceedings.

I never knew you were also permitted to sit in the jury room and observe their deliberations as they decided their verdict.

Or have I got that wrong?

Though no one is allowed in the jury room everybody knows all the evidence on which the jury bases its verdict. The jury is not allowed to consider any evidence that has not been accepted as valid by the court.

 

[IamRedeemed]

There is no criminal court jury here is there?
And we are being judged by our peers,
not a board of strangers aren't we?
I am not sure the "jury" scenario is even applicable here.

Hi there, jt! How are y'doin?

I got a question for you. I know that in the States, as in the UK, the public can go and sit in on almost any court case and watch the proceedings.

I never knew you were also permitted to sit in the jury room and observe their deliberations as they decided their verdict.

Or have I got that wrong?

 

[Floatingaxe]

No way what?

I don't believe that jury deliberations are open to observers.

 

[jessesgirl]

There is no criminal court jury here is there?
And we are being judged by our peers,
not a board of strangers aren't we?
I am not sure the "jury" scenario is even applicable here.

Aren't the moderators and admin....your peers?

 

[jessesgirl]

I don't believe that jury deliberations are open to observers.

Oh, okay. I just got a little lost.

 

[flaglady]

again this is merely my opinion but I just can't bring myself to take an internet Christian forum this seriously - to compare it to the legal court system is a bit much to me...sorry, this is not stated to offend but to show that not all agree with the clamour to reopen things in the reports.

lady, you have my gold star for making such good sense.

​

 

[Floatingaxe]

Well, as of this morning, I have access to all reports I make and those others have made against me. So, that kind of openness I think is excellent!


Thank you so much, Lee, for this much-needed change!!

 

[IamRedeemed]

Yes.
That is my point. They are PEERS and not a board made up of strangers.

I stated, "There is no criminal court jury here is there? And we are being judged by our peers,
not a board of strangers aren't we?
I am not sure the "jury" scenario is even applicable here."

Aren't the moderators and admin....your peers?

 

[IamRedeemed]

Another good point.

Though no one is allowed in the jury room everybody knows all the evidence on which the jury bases its verdict. The jury is not allowed to consider any evidence that has not been accepted as valid by the court.

 

[IamRedeemed]

I can testify to the validity of your claim as to what occurred in reference to the
misappropriation of authority of the Sr. Staff member and the scenarios to which you refer.
Thank you for your post.

I am glad that you recognize this is your opinion, for what it is worth the same can be said of our court system in the U.S. Should court proceedings not be public?


If you think the same thing did not happen with closed reports then you weren't paying much attention. The difference of course is that with closed reports people couldn't go to the thread to evaluate the "gossip". As for the benefit of this kind of openness the benefit is that staff can not hide behind secrecy and treat different members inconsistently.

I will make this as clear as I can so that it is not vague. There has been secrecy and conspiracy occur amongst staff. I know first hand having been both a moderator and a supervisor. I will point out to you only one example of staff "unfairness" that I have witnessed since the 777 debacle. One particular Sr. Staff member in one report thread overturned a consensus vote of staff that a flaming violation had occurred, this staff members reason was that the individual was simply stating their opinion and stating an opinion could not be a flame. This same Sr. Staff member in another report thread not three days later made the statement that a flame had occurred by an individual who made it clear that they were only stating their opinion. The difference was a fondness the staff member had for the former that was not shared with the later.

When questioned about this, the staff member would not answer PM's etc. When this was brought to the attention of this staff members supervisor the response was a vote of confidence that this particular Sr. Staff member would never do such a thing. Further PM's quoting and linking the report threads went unanswered. This was not an isolated incident by the way this particular staff member was very inconsistent and would overturn consensus decisions by teams under their supervision on more than a few occasions. There have been several more occasions of staff making inconsistent decisions and then closing threads which pointed out the inconsistency. As for being staff; I served on staff for over 2 years I know what happens in some closed threads and subfora.


An accusation that doesn't deserve a response.

 

[A New Dawn]

Hi there, jt! How are y'doin?

I got a question for you. I know that in the States, as in the UK, the public can go and sit in on almost any court case and watch the proceedings.

I never knew you were also permitted to sit in the jury room and observe their deliberations as they decided their verdict.

Or have I got that wrong?

You cannot sit in a jury room and watch them deliberate. They are behind a closed door with a guard. That is to protect them from being tampered with.

 

[A New Dawn]

Well, as of this morning, I have access to all reports I make and those others have made against me. So, that kind of openness I think is excellent!


Thank you so much, Lee, for this much-needed change!!

You do? I don't.

 

[IamRedeemed]

In the criminal court system, if there is any indication that a juror knows the accused or the accuser, they are immediately replaced because of the possibility of bias one way or the other, so the only way that scenario is applicable here really, is to show a good reason why the mod process should not be private as they are made up of people who do usually either know the accused or the accuser and therefore bias is not only a temptation or possibility but has been shown to also be a probability here in the present and in the past.

You cannot sit in a jury room and watch them deliberate. They are behind a closed door with a guard. That is to protect them from being tampered with.

 

[redrose26]

My 2 cents (and you might still want to give me change): open reports creates a "tabloid" kind of feeling with people who are not involved at all following every post in them just for the voyeristic nature of them. Open reports and the threads that follow tends to create an environment where people can "gossip" about accusations and the people who complain the most. I truly cannot see a benefit to the kind of openess that has been mentioned here - all I am seeing are vague accusations of "secrecy" & "conspiracy" and assumptions of unfairness. If you believe the moderators are unfair, then become one or support someone you think is fair. Otherwise the arguements just go in circles with people repeating themselves over and over.

Sour grapes make a bitter whine.

Here, Here

 

[Lindon Tinuviel]

Is it secrecy that truly bothers you or just the fact that you're not involved in it to second guess and questions those with the responsibility to address things? And do you believe that you method of "fighting" is effective? The very word "fighting" tells me a lot - "disagreeing" or "objecting" would have been more appropriate words to use if there is a true desire for change.

While I certainly appreciate your evaluation of my character, all I can tell you is that I've been repeatedly asked to join Staff, and I have repeatedly declined. I won't support this system. I will have no part in contributing to this system's shadowy mechanism.

Disagreeing, objecting... those things do no good, they bring no change. Believe whatever you wish to believe, but yeah, it's a fight.

 

[Floatingaxe]

You do? I don't.

Yes, in Theology, but I cannot access the reports on Debates.

 

[No Swansong]

Hi there, jt! How are y'doin?

I got a question for you. I know that in the States, as in the UK, the public can go and sit in on almost any court case and watch the proceedings.

I never knew you were also permitted to sit in the jury room and observe their deliberations as they decided their verdict.

Or have I got that wrong?

Hi Jo you are correct. But this is not applicable as those actually deliberating the outcome of the case must not have any personal relationships or knowledge of the individuals involved. My point was that I can go and watch almost any trial, if there is inappropriate action on the part of any court officer etc. it is open to the public for accountability purposes. As a matter of fact that is one of the reasons why the proceedings are open to hold the court accountable.

 

[No Swansong]

again this is merely my opinion but I just can't bring myself to take an internet Christian forum this seriously - to compare it to the legal court system is a bit much to me...sorry, this is not stated to offend but to show that not all agree with the clamour to reopen things in the reports.

There was no offense taken and no reason to apologize. Everyone has their own priorities. I put two years of service into this board spending several hours a day. If you think we are taking it too seriously why bother responding to us?

 

[Nimrauko]

I am quite annoyed by this. By having the reports private it causes distrust between the "powers that be" and us the members. I havent seen much that Lee has done, other than switching the title of the site back, and I would like to hear from him on this matter.

Secondly, comparing this to a Court Room, is a gross overstatement. There are no similarities between a unbiased court and what happens here. As neutral as you try to make the parties involved be, there is bias here and its undeniable. There are sects, and groups, that if you get on your back its near impossible to get off.

 

[jessesgirl]

Quite frankly, I am tired of hearing that "the staff" is doing things that are subversive, one-sided, biased, etc., etc.

Just because you as members have issues with a handful of staff members doesn't mean that the staff as a whole is bad. It is likely that the staff you are refferning to isn't even bad, maybe they are. But I don't think it is fair to say that we are all that way.

The staff (myself included) volunteer time out of our days and our lives to see that this site runs smoothly with as little controversy and as few issues as possible. It is a thankless job and while I can accept that, making us out to be some sort of horrible people is unacceptable in my opinion. I can nearly guarantee you that at LEAST 99% of us are here, dealing with all the crap that comes with moderating because we want this site to be good for YOU, the members. I do my best to be honest, fair and just in every report that I work and every moderator that I know does the same.

I am not trying to debate here because as you can tell, I don't do debate well. I probably stumbled over my words in this post because I do that when I am upset. What it boils down to is this: I do this because this is my ministry and while I can accept that it is thankless, I can't accept conspiracy theorists thinking that the WHOLE staff is out to get them.