Annihilationism

hedrick · Jun 29, 2016

Widlast said:
Revelation 14:11 pretty much sums up the reality of it all

And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.

Same goes for all the damned.

It's OT imagery, e.g. Is 34:10. There's no smoke going up from Edom now.

This whole discussion is based on reading poetry or literary prose entirely the wrong way.

Widlast · Jun 29, 2016

hedrick said:
It's OT imagery, e.g. Is 34:10. There's no smoke going up from Edom now.
Has nothing to do with Edom.

This whole discussion is based on reading poetry or literary prose entirely the wrong way.

You are way off base. Try reading the text in context.

The anti-christ was not at Edom. This is the punishment for the damned after the Tribulation.

“If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives its mark on his forehead or hand, 10he too will drink the wine of God’s anger, poured undiluted into the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."

Der Alte · Jun 29, 2016

Timothew said:
If you believe that the devil will not be destroyed, you are mistaken.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

StanJ · Jun 29, 2016

Timothew said:
Thank you. I thought that you would answer that way.
This proves that Revelation 20:10 is talking about destruction and not eternal conscious torment.
Isaiah 14:12 says
"How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn!"
Right? Most commentators say that this is referring to the devil.
The whole passage speaks of the death of this person. How can he live forever?

You keep vacillating back and forth. This says nothing about destruction, it says,"they will suffer torment day and night for all time."
Isaiah 14:12 has nothing at all to do with Revelation. You keep trying to make Old Testament connections where there are none.
If you want to learn what Isaiah 14:12 is talking about then study it, instead of making the common assertion that most people who read the KJV do. https://bible.org/article/lucifer-devil-isaiah-1412-kjv-argument-against-modern-translations

Timothew said:
Ezekiel says
"You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
You were in Eden,
the garden of God"
The devil, right? Most commentators agree.
Ezekiel goes on to say
"So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.:
Immortal right? Wrong, reduced to ashes! Tormented alive forever in the lake of fire? No, CONSUMED by fire and reduced to ash.

Everything you say here is wrong, so maybe you should just post the link to the commentators you say agree with you. In any event this has nothing to do with what I said in my post. Please try staying on topic.

Timothew said:
Here's a hint for you if you will accept it. The Book of Revelation is written in a style called "Apocalyptic" and it rely heavily on the use of SYMBOLISM. Since the Bible says that the devil will be destroyed, the Apocalypse has to be read with this in mind.

Here's a hint, the Bible does not say that the devil will be destroyed. It says that he will be condemned and confined to spiritual torment for all time. You really need to actually learn the truth in Scripture.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/isaiah-14-12.html

Timothew said:
No, please answer this question.
Do you agree or disagree with this statement?
"The wicked are doomed to destruction forever".
That is what I believe, and you should too. If the wicked are tormented alive forever in hell, then they have not been destroyed.

Obviously I do not believe the way you do because your belief is flawed. I think Barnes' explains it very well in the following excerpt.

When the wicked spring as the grass - When they grow up as plants do; when they seem to flourish and prosper. Compare Psalm 90:5-6; Psalm 37:2, Psalm 37:35, Psalm 37:38. The word "grass" here refers to the vegetable creation generally, embracing plants and flowers of all kinds.
And when all the workers of iniquity do flourish - As plants and flowers do. They are like vigorous plants; not like the stunted and dry shrubs of the desert.
It is that they shall be destroyed for ever - The meaning here is, not that the design of their being thus made to flourish is that they should be destroyed, or that they are made to flourish for that purpose, but that such "will be" the result. They will not be made happy in another world by their prosperous and prospered wickedness here, as if God approved of their course; but the end will be that they will be destroyed forever. The design of the psalmist seems to be to turn the mind from the idea that mere external prosperity is necessarily connected with happiness; or that one who is prospered in this life is on that account safe. There is another world, and "there" ample justice will be done to all. See Psalm 73:16-20.

hedrick · Jun 29, 2016

Widlast said:
You are way off base. Try reading the text in context.

The anti-christ was not at Edom. This is the punishment for the damned after the Tribulation.

No, that's not my point. Smoke going up forever is an image used by the OT for destruction. But the forever and ever wasn’t intended literally. Why would the author of the Revelation use the same kind of imagery but intend it to be taken literally?

The same image is used in Rev 19:3 about Babylon. Does the new earth coming down from heaven actually have a place with the old Babylon and smoke coming up from it? That seems unlikely.

Read the language understanding how it's intended.

Der Alte · Jun 29, 2016

hedrick said:
It's OT imagery, e.g. Is 34:10. There's no smoke going up from Edom now.
This whole discussion is based on reading poetry or literary prose entirely the wrong way.

This is a common tactic when scripture as written contradicts one's doctrine, dismiss it as SPAM-Fig, symbolic, poetic, allegory, metaphor, figurative anything but literal.
The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol. When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy
under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels and if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”

(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)

http://www.btdf.org/forums/topic/20113-the-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna-is-a-myth/

StanJ · Jun 29, 2016

Timothew said:
Dig yourself in a little deeper.
You claimed that that KJV was the only version that said that the soul who sins shall die, and I showed you two other versions that also said it. Why don't you stop insulting me for a second, calm down, listen and learn something?
You claimed that death in the Bible refers only to the body, I showed you a passage that says that the soul dies. Then you insulted me. Then you said that soul refers to the person. Okay, I agree, that refers to the person. So the person can actually die and not (merely) their body.
Just calm down, and let's discuss this rationally and biblically. You people who believe in eternal torment get so angry.

Wrong again. I said what I said it in writing so either quote what I said and refer to it or drop it because if you don't I'll report it.
The word death in the Bible always connotes the lack of Animation in the physical body. There is no other connotation that is used when it comes to death. We are not animals, we are made in God's image and in that image our spirit never dies, just as God never dies. His body did die and he was resurrected and we also will be resurrected, but our spirit will never die. It will be the fate of unbelievers that their spirit will be consigned to eternal torment exactly as the Bible says and as Jesus himself said. If you don't believe what Matthew 25:46 says in plain English then there's nothing I can do about it because you're going against the very word of God. If you're not going to believe the word of God then you're obviously not going to believe anybody else that tells you what the word of God tells you.

Alithis · Jun 29, 2016

wow people keep switching references of the physical realm and the spiritual realm .. the smoke of the devils torment is spiritual eternal realm .. and it is there that it does go up for ever and ever ..
the lord is quite clear on that . there no confusion unless it is introduced by that serpentine agenda that asks .."did god reeeally say ,.????

well YES .. he DID . and he means it .

Der Alte · Jun 29, 2016

Timothew said:
I gave you that passage. Matthew 10:28 clearly supports the doctrine that God will destroy both body and soul in hell. The reason you and I can't have a reasonable discussion is because you are not being reasonable.

As I have pointed out multiple times here and on other forums your proof text does not support "God will destroy body and soul" it supports that "God is able to destroy body and soul."

2 Peter 3:7 also says that the ungodly will be destroyed. I don't know why you are unable to see what is plainly written in Scripture. I don't know why you feel you must insult me for believing what Scripture says.

How have I insulted you? By pointing out when your posts are wrong or when you deliberately misrepresent what I say?

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition [ἀπώλεια/apoleia] of ungodly men.

Matthew 26:8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste [of ointment]? [ἀπώλεια/apoleia]

Mark 14:4 And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste [ἀπώλεια/apoleia] of the ointment made?

Acts of the Apostle 25:16 To whom I answered, It is not the manner of the Romans to deliver any man to die [ἀπώλεια/apoleia], before that he which is accused have the accusers face to face, and have licence to answer for himself concerning the crime laid against him.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition:[ἀπώλεια/apoleia] and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. [ἀπώλεια/apoleia]

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Evidently ἀπώλεια/apoleia means to be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

StanJ · Jun 29, 2016

Alithis said:
wow people keep switching references of the physical realm and the spiritual realm .. the smoke of the devils torment is spiritual eternal realm .. and it is there that it does go up for ever and ever ..
the lord is quite clear on that . there no confusion unless it is introduced by that serpentine agenda that asks .."did god reeeally say ,.????
well YES .. he DID . and he means it .

I must concur, one cannot keep vacillating between two contexts. The scripture is either dealing with the spiritual realm or the physical realm, in context, and it's not really hard to see which is which unless one practices eisegesis a lot.

Jan001 · Jun 29, 2016

ewq1938 said:
No, think about this: the punishment is death not torture. It is the punishment of death that is eternal. You misunderstand what the punishment is.

The second death for a person is the loss of eternal life. The punishment lasts forever.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” nkjv

vinsight4u · Jun 29, 2016

vinsight4u · Jun 29, 2016

vinsight4u · Jun 29, 2016

ewq1938 · Jun 29, 2016

Geralt said:
it says both destroy soul and body

Which you deny. Save your empty words about the "level" of my interpretation since you do not even accept or understand the text.

Jan001 · Jun 29, 2016

Timothew said:
Then your proof that all people are immortal because God is immortal fails.

The Bible says that evildoers are doomed to destruction. Obviously they are not immortal.
Though the wicked sprout like grass
and all evildoers flourish,
they are doomed to destruction forever;
Psalm 92:7 ESV

Do you agree or disagree that evildoers will be destroyed?

Evildoers are immortal and they will be continually destroyed forever.

ewq1938 · Jun 29, 2016

StanJ said:
Then you don't understand what Revelation 20:10 says?
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

That doesn't prove they are not destroyed.

Heb_2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Even the devil will be destroyed.

ewq1938 · Jun 29, 2016

Jan001 said:
The second death for a person is the loss of eternal life. The punishment lasts forever.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” nkjv

I know. That is my position and it proves eternal torture to be wrong.

vinsight4u · Jun 29, 2016

ewq1938 · Jun 29, 2016

Jan001 said:
Evildoers are immortal

No, just plain no. So much nonsense on this topic.

Annihilationism

What is your view of the final state of the unrepentant.

Annihilationism (I believe the unrepentant will be destroyed)

Traditionalism (I believe the unrepentant will suffer eternal conscious torment in hell)

Universalism (I believe that everyone will eventually be saved)

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