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Annihilationism Simplified

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Gentlemantech48, Oct 11, 2020.

  1. Gentlemantech48

    Gentlemantech48 Experienced Christian

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    I am 72 years old and have been a born again Christian most of my life. Until a few years ago, I had never heard of the theology of annihilationism. I had been taught that the unbeliever suffers eternally in the fires of Hell. I've always had a problem with that and I've talked to God about it. I just have a lot of trouble believing that a just and righteous God would have someone suffer for eternity simply because they chose to to live their life without Jesus as Lord. I was riding a train from St Louis, MO to Kansas City, MO when I read about annihilationism for the first time. I was fascinated and I read the complete article and the scriptural references that really seemed to show that unbelievers are annihilated in Hell, not left to burn in the fire for eternity.

    I know this is a very controversial subject and I know that most people reading this do not accept the teaching of annihilationism. After studying it thoroughly for years, I can only say that I am 90% convinced of its reality. I believe all the study on this subject breaks down to two important questions:

    #1 - It is obvious that there is a fire in Hell that cannot be quenched and burns for eternity according The Word. The annihilationist simply says that although the Fire is eternal, that does not mean that the unbeliever will continually burn in the fire and never burn up. ***Rather, the person, (body, soul, and spirit) are thrown into the fire and only suffer long enough for their body, soul, and spirit to be totally annihilated.
    #2 - As I understand it, suffering for eternity in Hell was a theology created by the Catholic church to frighten the people into serving the church and avoiding this eternal punishment. Also, the Old Testament seems to describe Hell as simply going into darkness and then into eternal sleep.

    I'm not a good enough Bible student to set forth the scriptures that are in question here. There are many articles on the internet that show in detail why some believe in annihilationism over eternal suffering. I know God is eternal and we cannot put Him in a box of our own belief system but when I study all of the other attributes of God, the idea of making the spirits of people suffer for eternity has never seemed to me to fit with His other attributes. All I can do is hope that the annihilationists are right because I don't want to think about people who were actually pretty good people suffering for eternity. We all know some very gentle, loving people who simply have decided they don't need Jesus but otherwise live a moral life. Do you understand what I'm saying?
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
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  2. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    That is the problem with mankind in general as we think that Gods ways should be like our ways. That God should think and act like we would act and think. When in fact just the opposite is true.

    Isaiah 55:9
    For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    1 Corinthians 2:10-16
    these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

    The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. 14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. 15 The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, 16 for,

    “Who has known the mind of the Lord
    so as to instruct him?”
    But we have the mind of Christ.

    Job 40
    The Lord said to Job:

    2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
    Let him who accuses God answer him!”

    3 Then Job answered the Lord:

    4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
    I put my hand over my mouth.
    5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
    twice, but I will say no more.”

    6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:

    7 “Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

    8 “Would you discredit my justice?
    Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
    9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
    and can your voice thunder like his?
    10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
    and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
    11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
    look at all who are proud and bring them low,
    12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
    crush the wicked where they stand.
    13 Bury them all in the dust together;
    shroud their faces in the grave.
    14 Then I myself will admit to you
    that your own right hand can save you.

    Job 42
    Then Job replied to the Lord:

    2 “I know that you can do all things;
    no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
    3 You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
    Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
    things too wonderful for me to know.

    4 “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.’
    5 My ears had heard of you
    but now my eyes have seen you.
    6 Therefore I despise myself
    and repent in dust and ashes.”




    hope this helps !!!
     
  3. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Unlike many I did not grow up in any particular denomination but I did attend Sunday School as a small child. I did not become a Christian until my mid-20s when LBJ was president.
    …..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, translated hades and gehenna in the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
    …..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

    Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
    The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
    [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]
    (I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
    But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
    … heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

    Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
    Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
    = = = = = = = = = =
    Encyclopedia Judaica:
    Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.

    …..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
    In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
    Gehinnom
    http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
    = = = = = = = = = =
    Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
    The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
    "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
    Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
    Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
    When Jesus taught e.g.,
    • “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Matthew 25:41
    • "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
    • "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3X Mark 9:43-48"
    • "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
    • “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.Matthew 18:6
    • “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.Matthew 7:23
    • “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. Matthew 26:24
    • “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
    …..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
    …..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
    30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
    31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
    …..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
    …..The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent.
    When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
    …..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

    “Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
    …..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?
     
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  4. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    The fire does not burn for eternity ... quenched means it can't be put out .... not that it burns forever (throughout eternity)

    The Catholic church did/does promote burning in hell for eternity ... many protestant ones as well. Many of the early protestants were those who had left the catholic church and disagreed with various teachings of the catholic church.

    The bible wasn't available to the common man for a long time ... much less available in all the different languages. So ... many of the early protestants still had "baggage" from previous teachings ... and to this day many protestants are still carrying this "baggage". God gives new light to every generation.

    The "burn in hell forever" belief is a "spin off" from another belief and that is that we have an immortal soul ... that is ... something that continues to consciously exist after our earthly death. This teaching is straight out of Egypt and is not what His word teaches. All are indeed dormant (know nothing) in the grave until His return and the 1st resurrection happens.

    The "burn in hell for eternity" is one of the most terrible teachings there is .... many turn away from God because of it ... they turn away from the idea of a God that would do such a thing ... and rightfully so. God is NOT a torturer.

    We humans know instinctively torture of any kind is not "ok" ... much less for eternity ... no way a loving God would do this. Yes, there will be multitudes that are annihilated at the very end, necessary to eradicate sin forever (for eternity). This is not what the Lord desires .... but he does not violate anyone's free choice decision and gives them over to their desires.

    I know EXACTLY what you are saying ... bothered me for many years of my life until I studied it out myself and found the truth.

    Always remember only HE knows the heart and desires as many as possible will enter His kingdom.

    Thank the Lord He is bringing you to the truth and may He continue to do so. Amen.

    Many verses about asleep in the grave ... if you want them ... let me know. Many have posted them many many times.

    May the Lord give everyone light as we study His word. Amen.
     
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  5. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Great biblical response to the heretical teaching known as annihilation
     
  6. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Baloney on your use of heretical teaching ... study His Word for yourselves folks. Many verses on this ... here is one

    “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch… And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.” Malachi 4:1,3
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2021
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  7. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    Does that describe the eternal fate of the proud and wicked or does it describe what happens on one day in this life?
    "the day that cometh shall burn them up"
    "they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this"
    Will the saints in heaven be walking on the ashes of the wicked throughout eternity, in paradise?
    This is known as "proof texting" or "quote mining."
     
  8. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife. Just as the Righteous experience everlasting bliss with Christ the wicked experience everlasting punishment with their father the devil.

    Mark 9:42-48
    42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

    "'their worm does not die,
    and the fire is not quenched
    .'

    Matthew 8:11-13
    11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

    Matthew 13:41-43
    41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

    Matthew 13:49-50
    49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matthew 22:13-14
    "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

    Matthew 24:48-51
    48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matthew 25:29-30
    29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Matthew 25:46
    "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

    2 Peter 2:1-9
    But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

    4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.


    Jude 1:4-7, 12-13
    4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

    5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

    12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

    Revelation 21:8
    8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

    Revelation 19:20-21
    20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

    Revelation 20:10
    10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    Revelation 20:12-15

    12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

    Unquenchable fire
    Fiery hell
    Black darkness
    Outer darkness
    Furnace of fire
    Fire and brimstone
    The smoke of their torment
    The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
    Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
    The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

    All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

    The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

    The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. got?

    hope this helps !!!
     
  9. Gentlemantech48

    Gentlemantech48 Experienced Christian

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    I'm not trying to "correct God"! I'm just trying to figure out what He's really saying about damnation in His Word.
     
  10. Gentlemantech48

    Gentlemantech48 Experienced Christian

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    Thank you for your reply. I'm still at 90% for now but maybe God will show me more.
     
  11. Gentlemantech48

    Gentlemantech48 Experienced Christian

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    Interesting, but very complex.
     
  12. Gentlemantech48

    Gentlemantech48 Experienced Christian

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    Yes! That is why I say there are a lot of scriptures on the side of annihilationism.
     
  13. Gentlemantech48

    Gentlemantech48 Experienced Christian

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    A very long and exhaustive reply but long and exhaustive does not always equal correct.
     
  14. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    I have already shown from Jewish sources that, in Israel 100s of years before there was a Catholic church, there was a belief in a place of eternal, fiery punishment which they called both sheol and Ge hinnom translated hades and Gehenna in both the LXX and the NT.
    …..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

    Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)

    9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

    10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
    11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

    [ . . . ]
    22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
    In this passage God, himself, is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
    …..Some may argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They may argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
    …..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal, translated “proverb,” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.


    …..The Jews considered this passage to be factual.

    Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
    “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
    GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
    …..Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.
    Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
    18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
    19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
    20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
    21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.


    22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
    Eze 32:30-31
    (30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
    (31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword,saith the Lord GOD.
    Jesus speaking, in the NT, a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.
    Luk 16:22-28
    (22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    (23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    (24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    (25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    (26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    (27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    (28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
  15. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    That is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to eternal torment for the wicked. There are plenty more scriptures I can provide.
     
  16. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Couldn't quote your entire post ... too many characters ... people will need to refer back to it.

    How happy are you (and others) going to be in heaven knowing people are "burning forever" (suffering for eternity)? Perhaps your mother, father and/or children/grand children?

    Torturing is completely out of Gods character of love.

    What does the word destruction mean? Destroyed.
    What does the word perish mean (death)

    Whether or not hell-is-forever is important because it portrays God's character as perceived by doubters and unbelievers. Is God just and merciful? Or vengeful and monstrous?

    The wicked will be totally destroyed.

    'Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, some must die.' (2 Samuel 14:14, Joab speaking, military commander under King David)

    The Old Testament does not teach about any particular kind of hell after death. In the Old Testament, Jews thought that people – non-Jews (Gentiles) for sure – just die ('cannot be recovered,' end of existence), like every other living thing.

    'A little while, and the wicked will be no more ...' (Psalm 37:10, Psalmist speaking)

    In the Old Testament times, Jews believed that human life is short and death is end of existence. The important thing is preserving life of the nation. 'Will be no more' means no existence.

    '... though the wicked spring up like grass and all evil doers flourish, they will be forever destroyed' (Psalm 92:7, Psalmist speaking)

    Same words used by Jesus in the New Testament (see below). 'Forever destroyed' means end of existence, much different than alive forever in hell.

    ''Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evil doer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,' says the Lord Almighty. 'Not a root or branch will be left to them ... and they will be ashes under the soles of your feet ...'' (Malachi 4:1-3, Old Testament Prophet speaking)
    Ashes mean no life, no consciousness.

    'His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.' (Matthew 3:12, John the Baptist speaking)

    When something is burned up, it ceases to exist, even though the fire continues until there is nothing left.

    'If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.' (Matthew 5:29, Jesus speaking)

    Jesus acknowledges hell as a terrible place, but no mention of time in hell.
    'Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.' (Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus speaking)

    Only two possibilities: Eternal life or destruction. When something is destroyed, it is damaged so badly that it ceases to exist.

    'Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.' (Matthew 7:19, Jesus speaking)

    Jesus giving an example about what will happen to false prophets who come in sheep's clothing. When trees are thrown into the fire, they burn up and cease to exist.
    'But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' (Matthew 8:12, Jesus speaking)
    Meaning awaiting judgment, before being cast into hell. See 2 Peter 2:4 below.

    'Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.' (Matthew 10:28, Jesus speaking)

    Jesus says clearly that BOTH soul and body will be DESTROYED in hell. Even the soul is destroyed. When something is destroyed, it no longer exists.

    'As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth' (Matthew 13:40-42, Jesus speaking)

    Weeds thrown into fire become dry, burn up and cease to exist.

    'Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth' (Matthew 13:47-50, Jesus speaking)

    Dead fish rot and cease to exist. When any living thing is thrown into a blazing furnace, it is killed and ceases to exist.

    'And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.' (Matthew 18:9, Jesus speaking)

    Doesn't say people will live forever in hell. When something is thrown into fire it is consumed, burned up, ceases to exist, even tho the fire continues until everything is in ashes.

    ➤ 'If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed with two hands than to go into hell, where the fire can not be put out.' (Matthew 18:18, Jesus speaking)

    People die in the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (see next verse below).

    'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' (Matthew 25:41, Jesus speaking)

    'Then they will go away to eternal punishment (not eternal punishing), but the righteous to eternal life.' (Matthew 25:46, Jesus speaking)

    Doesn't say the burning is eternal, only that the punishment is eternal – i.e., the sentence will never be commuted or changed. The judgment is for all time with no reprieve. The punishment is death, no eternal life.

    'Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell' (Luke 12:5, Jesus speaking)

    Jesus says there is a hell but doesn't say anything about time there before one perishes.
    'But unless you repent, you too will all perish.' (Luke 13:3, Jesus speaking)

    Perish means no longer alive, end of existence.

    'For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16, Apostle John speaking)

    Does not say people will have everlasting life in hell. Says people will perish (end of existence). Where will they be when they perish? Not on earth because sinners without Christ will be cast into hell. So it must be in hell where they perish.

    'My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish.' (John 10:27-28, Jesus speaking)

    Perish means no longer alive, end of existence. Eternal life is contrasted with perish, the alternative.

    'While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one [Judas] doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.' (John 17:12, Jesus praying)

    When something is destroyed, it is damaged so badly that it ceases to exist.

    'For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.' (Romans 6:23, Apostle Paul speaking)

    What a person gets for sin is death. Does not say eternal life in hell. This death (end of existence) is contrasted with eternal life offered through Jesus. Death is the default condition for everyone, avoidable only by accepting God's provision for salvation.

    'What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath — prepared for destruction?' (Romans 9:22, Apostle Paul speaking)

    When something is destroyed, it is damaged so badly that it ceases to exist.
    'This is a sign to them that they will be destroyed, but that you will be saved — and that by God.' (Philippians 1:28, Apostle Paul speaking)

    When something is destroyed, it is damaged so badly that it ceases to exist. God will save genuine Christians from destruction (will continue living, eternal life).

    'Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame.' (Philippians 3:19, Apostle Paul speaking)

    Destruction means damaged so badly that it ceases to exist.

    'He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.' (2 Thessalonians 2:3, Apostle Paul speaking)

    When something is destroyed – everlasting destruction – it is damaged so badly that it ceases to exist, and there is no hope of re-construction. This is the ultimate separation from God, forever.

    'But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved.' (Hebrews 10:39, Apostle Paul speaking)

    When something is destroyed, it is damaged so badly that it ceases to exist. People who have accepted Jesus as Savior are saved from destruction and given eternal life.

    'For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment ...' (2 Peter 2:4, Apostle Peter speaking)

    'Chains of darkness' is the dire condition while awaiting judgment, before being cast into hell.

    'With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare ... That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.' (2 Peter 3:8-13, Apostle Peter speaking)

    Perish means no longer alive, end of existence. When something is destroyed, it is damaged so badly it ceases to exist. This passage says that the day will come when everything will collapse in flames.

    'And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

    Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.' (1 John 5:11-12, Apostle John speaking)

    Only two possibilities: Eternal life or no life (death, end of existence). No mention of people being punished forever in hell.

    'Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.' (Jude 7, Jude speaking)

    Sodom and Gomorrah are cited as examples of punishment of eternal fire. Those cities were burned out of existence (not still burning forever)

    'If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night FOR THOSE WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.' (Revelation 14:9-12, Apostle John dream)

    WORDS IN CAPS make it clear that this is only for a very narrow category of people at a later time. This is the Apostle John's dream about what will happen in the future; words quoted from a dream are not as clear as the preceding direct statements from Jesus and the Apostles. The dream says that hell fire is eternal for people who 'worship the beast and his image.'

    'The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.' (Revelation 20:13-15, Apostle John dream)

    The first death is physical death and second death (after judgment) is death in hell fire. This speaks of death (end of existence) in hell, not everlasting life in hell. Any living thing thrown into a lake of fire dies.

    'But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning suffer. This is the second death.' (Revelation 21:8, Apostle John dream)

    Like verse above, the first death is physical death and second death (after judgment) is death in hell fire. This speaks of death (end of existence) in hell, not everlasting life in hell.

    Nobody is immortal. Immortality is given (only to the saved) when He returns.

    IF people are "burning in hell" having consciousness
    ... for eternity ... then they have been given immortality (although tortureous) and His Word does not teach this at all.

    1 Corinthians 15:26

    Berean Study Bible
    The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

    Revelation 20:14

    Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.

    death is death (cease to exist).

    Hope this helps ;o)
     
  17. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    So Jesus ceased to exist after He died on the cross ?
     
  18. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Jesus was/is 100% man and 100% God ..... God can not die. He (Jesus) ceased to exist as a man on earth ... was resurrected .... He maintains 100% of both.
     
  19. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    No that is not true. Jesus is forever both God and man in One Person.

    So who died ?
     
  20. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    Colossians 2:9

    Berean Study Bible
    For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form.
     
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