Animal Suffering

[random person]

Yes, I know carnivores are necessary (in our corrupted world).

But a need that arose due to corruption is a part of that corruption. I will never say the concept is beautiful because it is a fruit of this corrupt world.

1 John 2:15-17
Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father[d] is not in them. 16 For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17 The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

This is speaking of the human realm.

Do you believe animals were immortal before the Fall?

Or do you believe animals could only expire naturally (e.g. old age) before the Fall? And what about scavengers? Who cleaned up this dead matter?

If the latter, how did animals ever compete for food?

I for one do not believe predators used to feed on plant matter.

The fossil records shows predators always have existed and the fossils bear the marks of violent deaths via predation.

 

[timewerx]

This is speaking of the human realm.

Do you believe animals were immortal before the Fall?

Or do you believe animals could only expire naturally (e.g. old age) before the Fall? And what about scavengers? Who cleaned up this dead matter?

If the latter, how did animals ever compete for food?

I for one do not believe predators used to feed on plant matter.

The fossil records shows predators always have existed and the fossils bear the marks of violent deaths via predation.

This site explained it better than what I could have.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/carnivores.html


They did not mention about sexual reproduction which is an entirely different topic. But sexual reproduction also did not exist prior to the fall. Reproduction was via a different method which does not result to overpopulation but fully regulated by the adaptive mechanisms of our body. This is an independent scientific research I am doing and it is not yet finished.

Sufficing to say, people only reproduced via virgin births and the process was integrated with the body's defense mechanisms. This means virgin births was only initiated under very hostile events like threat of an extinction.. After the fall, it became sexual reproduction for many species and the control was given over to LUST instead of the original (and intelligent) defense-reactive-based mechanism.

That is the symbolic importance of why Christ came through a virgin birth. Virgin birth of Christ is symbolic of the period before the FALL.

This is why most of the things you see in the world is a reaction to this corruption and are corrupt themselves. Which is why very little in this world is really good. Read 1 John 2:15-17

 

[random person]

I am sorry I am not impressed with that site, timewerx, because it has no scriptural support whatsoever. Genesis 1:27-28 and biology alone destroys your scientific research into non-sexual reproduction.


This is my full preterist interpretation of Isaiah 11:6-9 & Isaiah 65:25 btw! But this article was not written by me.

The Wolf and the Lamb - by Allyn Morton

by Allyn Morton February 22, 2015​

If you are familiar with the futurist's view or maybe have come out of this camp you will be just as familiar with the position this futurist camp holds on chapter 11 of Isaiah and in paticular verses 6 and 7. As you may know the futurist holds to the idea that these two verses are specifically referring to a time on earth when a thousand year period of time (literal) will take place when Jesus will reign over the entire earth and the earth will be subdued by this reign. It will be a time, by their estimation, when all creatures, likewise, will have been subdued and will no longer act upon the instincts placed within them by their creator but instead will become docile and a community of passive loving animals towards one another and with the peoples of the earth who will also live among these creatures exhibiting no fear from one to the other.

However, I would like to present what I believe to be what these verses actually mean and by allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture you too may come to my conclusions or some refined version of them.

In Isaiah 11 we see a picture of Jesus in His first coming, and when we read of the wolf and the lamb as they lie down together and we might say in what sense is this a reality? The answer to that is really quite interesting. Its one of those answers that made my spirit jump within me. I may not be able to convey to you the same sense of exitement I felt when I discovered this, but I am sure you will certainly have something to think about and you may never look at these verses in the same way again. This comes right from the pages of the prophets.

Notice what Isaiah says: 6 “ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat, The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them. 7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

In each case you have what the Jew would call a clean animal and an unclean animal. A docile animal and a ferocious agressive carniverous animal. The four carniverous animals mentioned are a lion, a leopard, a bear and a wolf. These same animals, at least three of the four, are mentioned in Daniel chapter 7 as Gentile nations that rose up in the persecution of the Jews. The first of the four beasts was like a lion, the second like a bear, the third like a leopard, the fourth is not said to be a wolf but is simply discribed as an indescribeable ferocious beast. Its not called a wolf but it is interesting that in the New Testament Jesus and the Apostles warned us about wolves - but the interesting thing here is that the Gentile nations in Daniel are discribed as these very same animals.

And then, of course, the docile animals, the clean animals, are all sacrificial animals. The cow, the lamb, the kid, all the things mentioned here that lie down peaceably with the ferocious animals, are pictured as the clean animal. Now, when God said you should not plow with an ox and an ass together, which means you cannot put them under one yoke, the reason being the ox was a clean animal and the ass an unclean animal. Paul told his hearers to not be equally yoked together with unbelievers. Implying the clean and unclean animals. This is a spiritualization of God's people and those who are not God's.

Now look at Ezekiel 34. Here we have a parable, more or less, a figurative prophecy where Israel is compared to God's flock. The leaders of Israel are compared to the shepherds, and he is decrying the shepherds for the improper shepherding saying: Woe to the shepherds that feed themselves, should not the shepherd feed the flock. And He goes on that He is going to replace those shepherds of Israel with a Shepherd (meaning Jesus).

23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them—My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd.

But the interesting thing here is the part of the new covenant that Jesus will establish. He says in verse 25:

25 “I will make a covenant of peace with them, and cause wild beasts to cease from the land; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing;... 28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid.

I believe this is Hebrew parallelism when beasts of the land are identified with the nations (heathen). What I am saying here is that the Hebrew prophets would sometimes compare the Jews with clean animals and compare the Gentiles, who are unclean, with unclean animals. There has always been hostility between the nations and Israel just has there is between the ferocious animals and the docile. But in Christ, these would lie down peaceably.

Looking now at Ephesians 2: 12-16 we read from Paul what exactly Jesus did accomplish.

12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

Of the two, Jesus has taken the believing portions of the Jews and the believing portions of the Gentiles and made one - the body of Christ, the church. And he is saying that God has removed the enmity that existed between the Jew and the Gentile and in Christ God has made them one.

I am personally convinced - you are free to disagree - that Isaiah is speaking figuritively of this very thing. That the clean animal and the unclean animal, formerly hostile to one another, as a result of Jesus coming has made us one in Him. They are harmonously one together.

Now, if we need any further evidence, turn to Isaiah 11 again and see at the end of verse 6 where it says:

And a little child shall lead them.

Jesus made that statement also in Matthew 18:1-4

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Then back to Isaiah 11:8-9;

8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD...

Would I be taking too many liberties in saying that these poisonous snakes could refer to demons or to the devil which is commonly in Scripture referred to as a serpent or a dragon? If I say that, then what we see is the most vulnerable of God's people, the little children themselves have authority over the serpent. [The] child shall play by the cobra’s hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.

Let's look at Luke chapter 10:17 Here is where Jesus says to the 70:

17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” 18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

When Jesus said, " and nothing shall by any means hurt you." I hear an echo of Isaiah saying: 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain.

I think Jesus is referring back to this passage saying; "You little children, I have given you authority over the serpents. Nothing shall hurt you, they shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain".

1 John 4, talking about the spirit of the antichrist, then says in verse 4:

4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

This is about the spirit of the antichrist - the demonic powers that seek to keep people in darkness - and little children have overcome these. We are God's little children.

Is. 11:8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den. 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD...

In my opinion, these are spiritual fulfillments in our own lives today. I don't see the end of verse 9 completed yet because but I do think each generation heads in that direction. Because Jesus came, this is how it will all end up, and because Jesus came, because He has given authority to His people to stomp down the devil (the adversary), because of the great commission and the new life in Christ, this message will be carried to others forever.

© Allyn Morton

 

[random person]

 

[2KnowHim]

Removed by me.

 

[Hank77]

Carnivores have always existed and will always exist. God created mother nature. God provided food and sustenance for all carnivores, omnivores, and herbivores.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God. All scripture.

Gen 1:29 And God saith, `Lo, I have given to you every herb sowing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree sowing seed, to you it is for food;
Gen 1:30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to every creeping thing on the earth, in which is breath of life, every green herb is for food:' and it is so.

I believe animals began killing other animals when sin entered the world.

I agree.
https://answersingenesis.org/animal...ectedly-vegetarian-animals-what-does-it-mean/

 

[random person]

Gen 1:29 And God saith, `Lo, I have given to you every herb sowing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree in which is the fruit of a tree sowing seed, to you it is for food;
Gen 1:30 and to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the heavens, and to every creeping thing on the earth, in which is breath of life, every green herb is for food:' and it is so.

I agree.
https://answersingenesis.org/animal...ectedly-vegetarian-animals-what-does-it-mean/

Carnivores weren't created by sin neither were created by Satan. God has given them a specific role and task. They are part of God's creation.

So what do you believe? Animals before the Garden could only die of old age or acts of God? If so, what cleaned up the corpses if there were no scavengers and scavenging carnivores?

 

[Hank77]

Animals before the Garden could only die of old age or acts of God?

What animals before the Garden?

 

[random person]

What animals before the Garden?

I stand correctly, that should have read "before the Fall".

 

[Hank77]

I stand correctly, that should have read "before the Fall".

There was no physical death before the Fall.

 

[random person]

There was no physical death before the Fall.

So you believe animals were created immortal and simply kept on reproducing and reproducing and reproducing and reproducing and reproducing?

 

[Reformed Lutheran]

There was no physical death before the Fall.

That's a myth. Adam and Eve ate before the fall (as did the creatures and animals) something had die in this process of food consumption

 

[Hank77]

That's a myth. Adam and Eve ate before the fall (as did the creatures and animals) something had die in this process of food consumption

Yup, they ate plants, at least all the people before the Flood ate plants.

 

[Reformed Lutheran]

Yup, they ate plants, at least all the people before the Flood ate plants.

Plants are alive .. Just as animals are. Plants died by the hands of the consumer , therefore there was death before the fall.
But it's obvious in nature that god created carnivores and I'm sure they ate meat before the fall,, why the heck wouldn't they of!

 

[Reformed Lutheran]

Yup, they ate plants, at least all the people before the Flood ate plants.

Why did they eat plants? Why did they eat at all ,, if there was no death for animals or people before the fall then there would be no need to eat in order to nourish and maintain life

 

[Hank77]

Why did they eat plants? Why did they eat at all ,, if there was no death for animals or people before the fall then there would be no need to eat in order to nourish and maintain life

Read my post again, I said everyone ate only plants before the FLOOD.
As for eating before the Fall, they obviously did. Beyond that I can't answer your other question.

 

[Reformed Lutheran]

Read my post again, I said everyone ate only plants before the FLOOD.
As for eating before the Fall, they obviously did. Beyond that I can't answer your other question.

How do you know this? The millions of wicked men destroyed in the flood, how do you know they did not eat fish, or insects, or animals ?

The noahic covenant has to do with animals,, sure. But again, how do you know that other peoples all over the earth before Noah ate only plants,, Highly unlikely

 

[random person]

Read my post again, I said everyone ate only plants before the FLOOD.
As for eating before the Fall, they obviously did. Beyond that I can't answer your other question.

So cockroaches had no natural enemies?

So locusts and grasshoppers had no natural enemies?

So hares and rabbits had no natural enemies?

So rodents had no natural enemies (one pair of mice could produce 15,000 brood in a year)?

And what about carnivorous plants? They what... ate other plants?

It sounds like a living hell!

 

[random person]

If there was no death before the fall, what happened elephants stepped on ants and snails or any smaller animals perhaps hidden beneath scrapes consisting of fallen detritus, rock, bark, etc?

What happened when nestling chicks fell from their nests from great heights or into bodies of water or were forced to fend for themselves exposed to the elements and no parent birds to look after them? Could eggs be broken or could high temperature summer heat cook an exposed egg?

What happened when animals suffered accidental falls from crushing great heights?

 

[Reformed Lutheran]

So cockroaches had no natural enemies?

So locusts and grasshoppers had no natural enemies?

So hares and rabbits had no natural enemies?

So rodents had no natural enemies (one pair of mice could produce 15,000 brood in a year)?

And what about carnivorous plants? They what... ate other plants?

It sounds like a living hell!

^^^ exactly . Without the predator, carnivore and physical death the natural world would destroy itself !