Anglicanism vs Orthodoxy

[Ioan cel Nou]

Once our community has a building, everything will be different!

ramesses,

Is this something that is actually happening or more of an aspiration for your community? If it's the latter then there is a charity that might be able to help your community out (you may already know about them). They buy up disused Anglican churches for Orthodox parishes and they have recently offered us one in Bradford. Let me know if you would like me to send you some details. They're called the St Stephen the Great Foundation.

James

 

[Dewi Sant]

Thanks for your reply.

We are searching for our own building and we have got pretty close to getting a building a few times.
One is a large church hall (not the church itself but a function hall) which was up for auction.

We also nearly bought a former Salvation army hall, but there is no car park and it is in the city centre.

There was also another building in a village outside of Preston, but it was in an awkward place that would cost £9 to go from Preston to it...which is about 4 miles .




Thanks for the info.
I'll forward it onto them tomorrow.


After the liturgy last Sunday I suggested a disused chapel in the centre of Preston which is next to a large car park (which I assume is used for the offices....though I suppose something could be arranged)
The building doesn't have a for sale sign and in my opinion it doesn't look like it is being used and is on the edge of falling into dereliction.
But it is a stone built building.
Quite quaint in a prestigious and accesable part of the city....and it is in the commercial district, so the church will be noticed.

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

ramesses,

Here's the St. Stephen Foundation site in case you want to have a look (you might find the icon in the top corner familiar - it's my avatar!)

http://www.ststephenfoundation.org

The church they have offered us (and despite being on the parish council, I don't know whether we will be taking them up on the offer - we apparently need to work out if we can afford to run the place) is St. Mary's church in Bradford (there's a link there under accomplishments) in case you would like to see the sorts of places they are buying up. Hope this helps.

James

 

[NewToLife]

I was previously Anglican, Anglo Catholic would probably be a fair description of the Anglicanism that i held. I did not find it difficult to transition to Orthodoxy.

I do think that we need to use the Western Rite if we are to welcome home Anglicans in any number here in the UK though.

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

I was previously Anglican, Anglo Catholic would probably be a fair description of the Anglicanism that i held. I did not find it difficult to transition to Orthodoxy.

I do think that we need to use the Western Rite if we are to welcome home Anglicans in any number here in the UK though.

I'm not so sure about the western rite thing. I don't know a single convert here who would prefer to use the western rite and as to my knowledge there are no western rite Orthodox parishes in the entire country I'd suggest that the demand for it simply is not there. There is a convert parish not so far from me (Antiochian) where almost everyone is an ex-Anglican. They are distinctly eastern rite.

James

 

[NewToLife]

I'm not so sure about the western rite thing. I don't know a single convert here who would prefer to use the western rite and as to my knowledge there are no western rite Orthodox parishes in the entire country I'd suggest that the demand for it simply is not there. There is a convert parish not so far from me (Antiochian) where almost everyone is an ex-Anglican. They are distinctly eastern rite.

James

Firstly, I would note that i am of course a convert myself but I am not so concerned about the small number of current converts but rather those who remain outside of the Church in great need of her.

One unfortunate effect of the history of our church is that it has caused a conflation to some degree of the culture of the East with Orthodox Christianity. At one time our Church was much broader and less identified with any specific culture, we need to be broad again.

For an example of just how broad our Church once was in its ability to speak the Gospel I'd recommend reading some Anglo Saxon Christian works, The Dream of the Rood for instance illustrates that Christ and the Church can speak to diverse cultures in a way that whilst startling to us was appropriate to the listener. We know that this is possible and simply need to start doing so again. Of course we also need to be sure that we continue saying the same thing, but that thing needs to be said in ways that the listeners can understand more readily. Tradition is vital, tradition isn't.

On the day of Pentecost, St Peter preached and everyone there heard him in his own language. Here in the UK half of the Orthodox churches dont even use English and the other half are deeply immersed in foreign cultures. We have a Western Rite, approved by the bishops, one day we need to start using it.

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

Firstly, I would note that i am of course a convert myself but I am not so concerned about the small number of current converts but rather those who remain outside of the Church in great need of her.

One unfortunate effect of the history of our church is that it has caused a conflation to some degree of the culture of the East with Orthodox Christianity. At one time our Church was much broader and less identified with any specific culture, we need to be broad again.

For an example of just how broad our Church once was in its ability to speak the Gospel I'd recommend reading some Anglo Saxon Christian works, The Dream of the Rood for instance illustrates that Christ and the Church can speak to diverse cultures in a way that whilst startling to us was appropriate to the listener. We know that this is possible and simply need to start doing so again. Of course we also need to be sure that we continue saying the same thing, but that thing needs to be said in ways that the listeners can understand more readily. Tradition is vital, tradition isn't.

On the day of Pentecost, St Peter preached and everyone there heard him in his own language. Here in the UK half of the Orthodox churches dont even use English and the other half are deeply immersed in foreign cultures. We have a Western Rite, approved by the bishops, one day we need to start using it.

I agree with you for the need to make Orthodoxy in Britain less ethnic, but there are parishes that already do this. There's also the work of Fr. Andrew Phillips in Felixstowe, who really strives to encourage all Orthodox here to venerate our local saints. I would suggest that, and not the western rite, is the most appropriate effort for making a truly English (and Scottish, Welsh etc.) Orthodox Church. It is something I am trying to promote in our parish even though it is an outpost of Romania in Britain and I am mainly getting positive responses at the moment.

I have to say that the Liturgy we use in the eastern rite is not part of the ethnic problem and I certainly would not want to attend a western rite Liturgy that would seem altogether too Anglican. It just wouldn't feel right to me, I'm afraid. I also have something of a problem with the western rite in that it isn't based on a truly western Orthodox rite of the past but rather one of the Roman Catholic Tridentine Mass or the Anglican Liturgy. If it were possible to resurrect, say, the Sarum Rite then I'd be less opposed but I don't think it is. I also seriously doubt that using the western rite would attract more converts. Those few I know of who converted after experiencing Orthodox worship were all struck by the beauty of our Liturgy, which they did not find in their own churches, and I'm not talking low church Protestants here but high church Anglicans. Now, if we were to begin a successful missionary outreach here that brought in numbers of converts that actually wanted to use the western rite, then I think they ought to be allowed to but such a demand does not currently exist and it seems dubious to me to create western rite parishes simply on the offchance that they might attract converts. There are fr better ways of evangelising heterodox Britons.

James

 

[NewToLife]

I agree with you for the need to make Orthodoxy in Britain less ethnic, but there are parishes that already do this. There's also the work of Fr. Andrew Phillips in Felixstowe, who really strives to encourage all Orthodox here to venerate our local saints. I would suggest that, and not the western rite, is the most appropriate effort for making a truly English (and Scottish, Welsh etc.) Orthodox Church. It is something I am trying to promote in our parish even though it is an outpost of Romania in Britain and I am mainly getting positive responses at the moment.

Venerating our local saints is definitely a good start ( I have a collection of icons of British saints myself ), pilgrimages in the UK are good also. Nevertheless, our local saints are quite distant from modern British people so I think that these things only help a little. Given time perhaps a more comtemorary figure will emerge as a saint, that I think would be a great blessing for the Church in Britain.

I have to say that the Liturgy we use in the eastern rite is not part of the ethnic problem and I certainly would not want to attend a western rite Liturgy that would seem altogether too Anglican. It just wouldn't feel right to me, I'm afraid. I also have something of a problem with the western rite in that it isn't based on a truly western Orthodox rite of the past but rather one of the Roman Catholic Tridentine Mass or the Anglican Liturgy. If it were possible to resurrect, say, the Sarum Rite then I'd be less opposed but I don't think it is. I also seriously doubt that using the western rite would attract more converts. Those few I know of who converted after experiencing Orthodox worship were all struck by the beauty of our Liturgy, which they did not find in their own churches, and I'm not talking low church Protestants here but high church Anglicans. Now, if we were to begin a successful missionary outreach here that brought in numbers of converts that actually wanted to use the western rite, then I think they ought to be allowed to but such a demand does not currently exist and it seems dubious to me to create western rite parishes simply on the offchance that they might attract converts. There are fr better ways of evangelising heterodox Britons.

I dont think that we should use a western rite as an evangelical tool exactly, it's more about recognising that although Catholicism and Anglicanism are not Orthodox they nevertheless have been the vehicles through which much truth has been preserved in Britain. Just as a convert is not rebaptised, Orthodoxy instead completing what has been partially accomplished so I feel that instead of looking to abandon what has gone before here in Britain we should instead be looking to bring it to completion within the Church. The Western Rite's Anglican/Catholic flavour is something that I dont feel should be a problem so long as the Church has made the necessary alterations to render it a valid Orthodox form.

My opinion ( and its only an opinion ) is that we ought to meet people where they are and look to complete what was started in good faith by others in the past who did not have the advantage of Orthodoxy, at one point we were talking about communion with Anglicanism, that is no longer possible Anglicanism having altered course dramatically over the last 50 years or so. Nevertheless at one point we recognised that this Church was not so very far removed from us, it seems odd to take what we already recognised as good within Angicanism and discard it as though it is beyond repair. We should remember that Anglicanism and before it Catholicism have been central to our national character for a very long time now.

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

Venerating our local saints is definitely a good start ( I have a collection of icons of British saints myself ), pilgrimages in the UK are good also. Nevertheless, our local saints are quite distant from modern British people so I think that these things only help a little. Given time perhaps a more comtemorary figure will emerge as a saint, that I think would be a great blessing for the Church in Britain.



I dont think that we should use a western rite as an evangelical tool exactly, it's more about recognising that although Catholicism and Anglicanism are not Orthodox they nevertheless have been the vehicles through which much truth has been preserved in Britain. Just as a convert is not rebaptised, Orthodoxy instead completing what has been partially accomplished so I feel that instead of looking to abandon what has gone before here in Britain we should instead be looking to bring it to completion within the Church. The Western Rite's Anglican/Catholic flavour is something that I dont feel should be a problem so long as the Church has made the necessary alterations to render it a valid Orthodox form.

My opinion ( and its only an opinion ) is that we ought to meet people where they are and look to complete what was started in good faith by others in the past who did not have the advantage of Orthodoxy, at one point we were talking about communion with Anglicanism, that is no longer possible Anglicanism having altered course dramatically over the last 50 years or so. Nevertheless at one point we recognised that this Church was not so very far removed from us, it seems odd to take what we already recognised as good within Angicanism and discard it as though it is beyond repair. We should remember that Anglicanism and before it Catholicism have been central to our national character for a very long time now.

I don't disagree with you at all. I just think that the time for starting a western rite parish in Britain is the time when the demand for such a parish becomes apparent amongst the Orthodox here. This may well become the case if we have an influx of Anglican or Catholic converts but I don't see it happening in the short term. What I would be opposed to, though, is the artificial creation of a western rite parish in the abscence of such a demand simply because somebody, somewhere thinks that it might attract some converts. I simply don't believe it would and any such parish would not serve the needs of the overwhelming majority of Orthodox, convert and cradle alike, who are perfectly happy with the eastern rite and have no desire for any such western Liturgy.

James

 

[Mysterium_Fidei]

A few Anglican Parishes (and a few Catholic) use the Sarum Rite. I think that would be a good start to any Western Rite, as you suggested jmbejdl.

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

A few Anglican Parishes (and a few Catholic) use the Sarum Rite. I think that would be a good start to any Western Rite, as you suggested jmbejdl.

Really? I thought the Sarum Rite had died out. Did it survive somewhere, or was it resurrected, so to speak?

James