Anglican/Episcopalian vs Methodist

[Albion]

I wasn't really trying to oppose or confirm here as I didn't think it the proper place to start a debate over theology. I am only saying that High Church liturgy and accouterments reflect certain beliefs that cannot be reconciled to the 39 articles.

That I understand. And I hope you noticed that when I said "I think you oppose some because they squelch certain doctrinal implications while I'd applaud the same ones for the same reason" I let it go at that.

 

[boswd]

Well, that was intended as a quick comment, but what I know of the details runs something like this. The Reformation-era north-enders (a colloquialism) celebrated at an altar set up in the aisle so that all the action could be seen by the congregation. This proved to be very confining. Later on--including for those presbyters who do it this way still today--the altar is in its usual position but the officiant operates from the north side of it. This is for the same reason, though. The presbyter is not to turn his back on the congregation.

What the so-called liturgical reformers of the last two generations did was to have the priest face the congregation from behind the altar in the mistaken notion that this is how it was done in Apostolic times. That theory has since been shown to be inaccurate, but of course the Roman Church still does it this way.

I go to a few Anglican Services at a couple of different Church's and at both places the Priest was behind the alter facing the congragation and both of them held the Bread above and would break it while holding it high. In one, the Church Bells ring when conscreted. I think it's a nice touch.

One Church is in no way shape or form a High church, the second one is Higher but is not in the same leauge as a "Tridentine" type Anglo Catholic Church's.

So are you only speaking of Anglican Church's in your branch or of ALL the Anglican Church's even the ones in Communion with the Church of England?

 

[Albion]

I go to a few Anglican Services at a couple of different Church's and at both places the Priest was behind the alter facing the congragation and both of them held the Bread above and would break it while holding it high. In one, the Church Bells ring when conscreted. I think it's a nice touch.

They ring at the elevation, I believe. Yes, this the usual way in the Episcopal Church, USA since the introduction of its new prayerbook. Not so in most of the (other) Anglican churches in America.

the second one is Higher but is not in the same leauge as a "Tridentine" type Anglo Catholic Church's.

Good luck on finding one of those!

So are you only speaking of Anglican Church's in your branch or of ALL the Anglican Church's even the ones in Communion with the Church of England?

I was speaking of parishes in any Anglican church body in which the worship service is conducted "north-end." None of those in my "branch" do it this way, to my knowledge.

 

[boswd]

They ring at the elevation, I believe. Yes, this the usual way in the Episcopal Church, USA since the introduction of its new prayerbook. Not so in most of the (other) Anglican churches in America.


Good luck on finding one of those!


I was speaking of parishes in any Anglican church body in which the worship service is conducted "north-end." None of those in my "branch" do it this way, to my knowledge.

Here is one, I think, I haven't been to a Sunday Mass yet, but from what I hear it is very very High and the Choir is supposed to be outstanding.

The Church of the Advent - Homepage


I have a feeling you wouldn't care for this Church too much I'm dying to go. I've been inside, it's amazing, I think this liturgy would right up my alley.

 

[Albion]

Here is one, I think, I haven't been to a Sunday Mass yet, but from what I hear it is very very High and the Choir is supposed to be outstanding.

The Church of the Advent - Homepage


I have a feeling you wouldn't care for this Church too much I'm dying to go. I've been inside, it's amazing, I think this liturgy would right up my alley.

Well, you did use the word "Tridentine" in your description, so to me that ups the ante to a Latin Mass using a Roman Missal but the parish still technically a member of some Anglican jurisdiction. There are a few of those around, of course, and you are fortunate if this is what you want and there's also one of them near where you live.

By the way, I am sure that if I were to visit this church, I'd find it "amazing" also. I would be dazzled by Midnight Mass at St. Peter's in Rome, too. I'd come away from both feeling the drama and the majesty of elaborate vestments, processionals, multiple clergy and acolytes, etc. I would recognize the devoutness and sincerely involved. But I would not find it as personally meaningful as the uncluttered worship service in a low church setting, no.

 

[ContraMundum]

I am only saying that High Church liturgy and accouterments reflect certain beliefs that cannot be reconciled to the 39 articles.

Liturgically speaking, "low church" liturgy seems more readily compatible with most perspectives within Anglicanism. You can be a Tract 90 Anglican or a 39 Article Anglican and not be too offended by a straight forward BCP service. I think that's the genius of a truly catholic prayerbook.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

What I'm sad about is that there doesn't seem to be room for the moderate position; it's either pseudo-Romanist or happy clappy. That was always the Anglican boast--that we are the Via Media--but now we are polarized both theologically and liturgically as well.

I may be weird but I like both styles of service. I get plenty of "happy clappy" at my AoG church, and I go to Episcopal churches for the liturgy. Doing both is more satisfying to me than either alone. A church that offered both would suit me very well. Something in between might suit me too, though I'm not exactly sure how that'd work. And I suppose I'd be considered moderate: far less conservative than typical for AoG, but far less liberal than typical for TEC.

 

[Timothy]

Liturgically speaking, "low church" liturgy seems more readily compatible with most perspectives within Anglicanism. You can be a Tract 90 Anglican or a 39 Article Anglican and not be too offended by a straight forward BCP service. I think that's the genius of a truly catholic prayerbook.

Agreed. I think in all honesty, the ASB liturgy was excellent for that too--in many ways greatly superior to the 1979 book, IMO.

 

[Wildcat48]

Well, you did use the word "Tridentine" in your description, so to me that ups the ante to a Latin Mass using a Roman Missal but the parish still technically a member of some Anglican jurisdiction. There are a few of those around, of course, and you are fortunate if this is what you want and there's also one of them near where you live.

By the way, I am sure that if I were to visit this church, I'd find it "amazing" also. I would be dazzled by Midnight Mass at St. Peter's in Rome, too. I'd come away from both feeling the drama and the majesty of elaborate vestments, processionals, multiple clergy and acolytes, etc. I would recognize the devoutness and sincerely involved. But I would not find it as personally meaningful as the uncluttered worship service in a low church setting, no.

The Episcopal Church of St. Michael the Archangel in Lexington, KY offers a traditional, Tridentine style Mass in Latin with slight corrections for distinct Episcopal theology.

 

[Wildcat48]

If you were reading the earlier posts, you know that it was a criticism of low church ritual that started us off, not the other way around.

I don't know of anything that can be called wrong with low church services, so long as the rubrics of the BCP are followed. But a lot of high church worship utilizes additions and subtractions to the BCP and can run the risk of having so much pageantry as to focus the congregation's attention on either the priest himself or on unsound doctrine. Those would be, it is often remarked, real wrongs.

I suppose it totally depends on what you considered "low church", but I think some might argue that developments such as infrequent communion in some parishes are "unsound developments" and counter to tradition in the Early Church.

 

[Albion]

I suppose it totally depends on what you considered "low church", but I think some might argue that developments such as infrequent communion in some parishes are "unsound developments" and counter to tradition in the Early Church.

The term "Low Church" refers to the degree of ceremony involved in worship. It has absolutely nothing to do with how frequently the Lord's Supper is celebrated. Similarly, it is possible to be very "High Church" and celebrate Communion less often than in the Low Church parish across town. To the extent that some parishes tend towards a more frequent use of Morning Prayer than Holy Communion, that would be characteristic of "Evangelical" Anglicanism (to use the most common of several terms that describe the opposite end of the spectrum from Anglo-Catholicism).

 

[Wildcat48]

The term "Low Church" refers to the degree of ceremony involved in worship. It has absolutely nothing to do with how frequently the Lord's Supper is celebrated. Similarly, it is possible to be very "High Church" and celebrate Communion less often than in the Low Church parish across town. To the extent that some parishes tend towards a more frequent use of Morning Prayer than Holy Communion, that would be characteristic of "Evangelical" Anglicanism (to use the most common of several terms that describe the opposite end of the spectrum from Anglo-Catholicism).

Fair enough. Though "evangelical" and "low church" are often correlated, I see your distinction. I've often heard my priest speak of low church in theological terms as well, so I've repeated that usage here. But I can see the nuance of semantics.

 

[Albion]

Fair enough. Though "evangelical" and "low church" are often correlated, I see your distinction. I've often heard my priest speak of low church in theological terms as well, so I've repeated that usage here. But I can see the nuance of semantics.

Sure. Low Church does generally go with Evangelical Anglicanism and High Church with Anglo-Catholicism, both for obvious reasons. HOWEVER, the original Anglo-Catholics were Low Churchmen, and I know many Evangelicals who are "higher" in worship style than we might expect given their beliefs.

 

[Secundulus]

Sure. Low Church does generally go with Evangelical Anglicanism and High Church with Anglo-Catholicism, both for obvious reasons. HOWEVER, the original Anglo-Catholics were Low Churchmen, and I know many Evangelicals who are "higher" in worship style than we might expect given their beliefs.

My Church is Anglo-Catholic and we are neither particularly low nor high Church. We have communion at every service but normally celebrate it low mass with a 1928 BCP - Anglican Missal service.

We even do a straight out of the book evening prayer service on Wed evenings as a lead in to Christian education.

Personally, I would prefer high mass every time, but since my desire is in the minority, I lost. Also, our priest doesn't like to sing his parts.

 

[Wildcat48]

My Church is Anglo-Catholic and we are neither particularly low nor high Church. We have communion at every service but normally celebrate it low mass with a 1928 BCP - Anglican Missal service.

We even do a straight out of the book evening prayer service on Wed evenings as a lead in to Christian education.

Personally, I would prefer high mass every time, but since my desire is in the minority, I lost. Also, our priest doesn't like to sing his parts.

Do you attend an Episcopal church, or a breakaway Anglican church (or Old Catholic)? I've only seen a handful of churches in the TEC still using the 1928 BCP. I'm intrigued.

Does your service include consecration bells, elevation of the host, Marian intercessions, etc?

 

[Albion]

We're now drifting into a discussion of 'how low is low' and 'how high is high.' That's a real toughie without any absolute answers.

 

[Secundulus]

Do you attend an Episcopal church, or a breakaway Anglican church (or Old Catholic)? I've only seen a handful of churches in the TEC still using the 1928 BCP. I'm intrigued.

Does your service include consecration bells, elevation of the host, Marian intercessions, etc?

My Church is part of the Traditional Anglican Communion (TAC). St. George's Anglican Church - Welcome!

We use consecration bells and the host is elevated.

The service is from the Missal, but follows the 1928 BCP with some added prayers and antiphons.

The ministers say the confiteor before every service. The only specific mention of Mary during the Mass is the Priest's prayer for the Acceptance of us and our Gifts at the beginning.

FOR THE ACCEPTANCE OF OURSELVES AND OUR GIFTS
Receive 0 Holy Trinity, this oblation which- we offer unto thee, in memory of the passion, resurrection, and ascension of our Lord Jesus Christ; and in honour of blessed Mary Ever-Virgin, of blessed John Baptist, of the holy Apostles Peter and Paul; of these and all the Saints’; that it may be to their honour and our salvation and that like as we remember them on earth, so in heaven they may plead for us. Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
Anglican Missal, pg. B39.
​

 

[Secundulus]

We're now drifting into a discussion of 'how low is low' and 'how high is high.' That's a real toughie without any absolute answers.

That is true. What is low mass for one might look high to another.

Our Low and High Masses follow the guidelines of Ritual Notes by E.C.R. Lamburn.

 

[Timothy]

I currently attend a church where the idea of robing for any service puts you into the high-church realm. Our minister has worn robes precisely once--for his induction by the bishop, and then, of course, liturgically appropriately, he was in choir dress.

Tim

 

[Wildcat48]

Albion: Not sure if your comment was directed towards me, but my purpose wasn't really to push the conversation in that direction. I was just honestly curious about Secundulus' church.

Secundulus: Thanks for the answer. I know of no TAC churches around me, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Do you have an opinion on the upcoming Anglican Ordinariate?

Timothy: I'm equally intrigued by the thought of a priest with no vestments. Churches in my area are pretty uniform with only slight differences in elaborations of the liturgy. All that I have visited make use of vestments, however. Does the rest of the CoE follow a similar churchmanship as your parish? Or is it a mixture?