Anglican Communion and Catholicism

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Lifesaver

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I understand that all Christians strive for unity, to be one united flock as Christ intended us to.
I also understand that many Anglicans, I think they are called High Anglicans (am I mistaken here?) or even Anglo-Catholics, have beliefs and practices very similar to those of Catholicism, even closer to it than most Eastern Orthodoxy. In fact, they are so similar in their beliefs that many consider themselves to be both at the same time.
My question is for these Anglicans.

What would you say is the reason why the Anglican communion is not in communion with Rome? Would you be against a unification, bearing in mind that the Anglicans would be allowed (as many formerly Anglican parishes are today) to keep their liturgy and traditions?
What would you say that, personally, constitutes the greatest obstacle for a unification under the authority of Rome (As it was until the XVI century)?

Oh, and let me seize this oportunity to also learn about something I'm quite unclear on: what is the role of the British monarch in the Anglican communion? Is there any religious authority attached? Do they have the authority to make pronoucements about matters of faith? Is it true that if a successor to the throne becomes Catholic they lose their successory rights?
And how likely is it that the queen or the successors will try to make relations better with the Vatican?

Well, these are a lot of questions. To everyone who answers one (or all), thanks in advance.
 

gitlance

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Well, I consider myself to be Anglo-Catholic, but there are still a few main reasons why I am not a Roman Catholic. I can't speak for all Anglicans, but I believe these reasons are a somewhat common ground among our reluctance to become Roman Catholic.

1) Most Anglicans find the idea of a physical, earthly head of the Church to be unscriptural. We acknowledge Christ as the sole central authority. Now, we do accept the Bishop in Rome as a validly ordained Bishop in the Church; however, we don't treat him as if he has any more or any less power than all the other bishops worldwide.

2) Purgatory also tends to be a stumbling block for many Anglicans. While few of us would disagree that we will be "purified by fire," we find it difficult and scripturally unproven to assume that there is a 3rd possible destination after death, aside from Heaven and Hell. Our Christian hope is that we will be utterly and completely saved through Christ, without fear of retribution or punishment in any way. We believe that Christ's sacrificial atonement completely cleansed our sin, and therefore there is no need to undergo mortal purification after death.

3) Veneration of Mary is a concern for some Anglicans, though not so much so for Anglo-Catholics. However, even among Anglo-Catholics you will not usually find as high a degree of Marian veneration as you will among Roman Catholics.

The Anglican church was influenced highly by the Reformers, and because of such it distanced itself from some of the plainly unscriptural abuses of the Roman Catholic church of that time period.

---

As far as the monarchy goes, it is primarily nothing more than a figurehead, though officially the monarch is regarded as the "defender of the Faith." However, there is no authority on matters of doctrine or theology given to the monarch. Even the Archbishop of Canterbury cannot solely and infallibly declare dogma for the Church. He may be considered the most powerful man in Anglicanism, but in fact he is nothing more than the bishop of Canterbury, plain and simple. All other groups and dioceses within the Communion may listen to his advice, but they do not have to agree or comply with any rulings he may make for his own diocese. He is not analogous to the Pope in Roman Catholicism, as the media likes to commonly think.

I hope I at least pointed you in the right direction with my answers. You will want to hear from other members of the forum, though, such as Father Rick or Polycarp. They will be able to provide you with much more insight than I.

Christ's peace be with you!

gitlance
 
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benedictine

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Lifesaver said:
I understand that all Christians strive for unity, to be one united flock as Christ intended us to.
I also understand that many Anglicans, I think they are called High Anglicans (am I mistaken here?) or even Anglo-Catholics, have beliefs and practices very similar to those of Catholicism, even closer to it than most Eastern Orthodoxy. In fact, they are so similar in their beliefs that many consider themselves to be both at the same time.
My question is for these Anglicans.
OK.

Lifesaver said:
What would you say is the reason why the Anglican communion is not in communion with Rome?
The King wanted a divorce and the Pope said no. So the church split.

Lifesaver said:
Would you be against a unification, bearing in mind that the Anglicans would be allowed (as many formerly Anglican parishes are today) to keep their liturgy and traditions?
Absolutely not.

Lifesaver said:
What would you say that, personally, constitutes the greatest obstacle for a unification under the authority of Rome (As it was until the XVI century)?
Gene Robinson, Papal Infallibility, and Women's ordination.

Lifesaver said:
Oh, and let me seize this oportunity to also learn about something I'm quite unclear on: what is the role of the British monarch in the Anglican communion? Is there any religious authority attached? Do they have the authority to make pronoucements about matters of faith? Is it true that if a successor to the throne becomes Catholic they lose their successory rights?
And how likely is it that the queen or the successors will try to make relations better with the Vatican?
The Monarch appoints the Archbishop of Cantebury. That's it. Beyond this, the monarch has no religious power.
If the moarch is anything other than Anglican, they lose their right to the throne, under British Law.

Lifesaver said:
Well, these are a lot of questions. To everyone who answers one (or all), thanks in advance.
Certainly, anytime.
 
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Wigglesworth

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Lifesaver said:
I understand that all Christians strive for unity, to be one united flock as Christ intended us to.
Although I believe this statement should be the truth, I also believe it is not yet a reality. The greatest things I enjoy about the Anglican church are its love of unity and rejection of separatism and legalism. Although I sincerely explored the Catholic church, I could not bring myself to be placed under what I perceived as a legalism contrary to the grace of Jesus Christ. This hit me more than it might hit others because of my fundamentalist background.

Some of the most profound examples of things that bugged me were (1) the mandatory Sunday obligation under penalty of losing grace, (2) not being allowed to receive communion as a nonCatholic, and (3) the mandatory acceptance of doctrinal positions with which I disagree, and which are inconsistent with Scripture. (The above are oversimplified expressions of my perceptions, and are not intended to be construed as absolutely accurate presentations of the Catechism of the Catholic Church).

On the other side, (1) when I worship in the Episcopal church, I am not required to believe that if I attend a Wednesday prayer, but then skip a Sunday service, I go to Hell if I die on Monday. (2) The Episcpal church only requires that I be a baptized Christian to receive communion. (3) Anglicans hold to those beliefs that have been accepted by the whole church over the whole world the whole time the church has existed. That narrows it down pretty much to the basic things that true Christians have in common - regardless of denomination. I'm allowed to believe the things that my Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian brothers think are wrong.

Please understand that no offense is intended, and that I spent a great deal of time learning about these things and hashing out my own stand. Just because I seek more understanding and unity in the church, I am presently undertaking a formal study of the Catholic church from the Catholic perspective. I have chosen not to be Catholic - not because I do not understand the Catholic position, but rather because I do.

:crosself:
 
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pmcleanj

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Lifesaver said:
I also understand that many Anglicans, I think they are called High Anglicans (am I mistaken here?) or even Anglo-Catholics, have beliefs and practices very similar to those of Catholicism, even closer to it than most Eastern Orthodoxy. In fact, they are so similar in their beliefs that many consider themselves to be both at the same time.

We use the term "Catholic" rather differently than do those members of the Catholic church who are in communion with the Bishop of Rome. The word Catholic literally means "universal". It refers to the belief that the Church, which is the Body of Christ, is the community of all faithful people united through time and space. The opposite of Catholic is not "protestant", but "Congregationalist", referring to the belief that the Body of Christ manifests in fullness in the local congregation, without reference to other Christians outside the local congregation. Anglicans believe very much that the Body of Christ is the Blessed Company of All Faithful People. In fact, we believe it to the extent that we don't draw distinction between faithful people who are members of our denomination, and faithful people who are members of other denominations. The Body of Christ manifests in its wholeness only when we recognize that it transcends the divisions we have created among us.

"Anglican", on the other hand, just means "English", and refers to the nationality in which our understanding of the Church, and our liturgy, had its birthplace. So you see, it is easy to be both Anglican and Catholic. In fact, you can't be Anglican without being Catholic.

Many Anglicans, of course, prefer to emphasize their protestant heritage. "Protestant" technically refers to those who protested against the edicts of the Diet of Worms, which condemned Luther and forbade his teachings. Protestantism more generally refers to a belief in the individual's responsibility to protest in favour of what he believes to be right doctrine. The opposite of Protestantism is not Catholicism but dogmatism -- the belief that a clerical hierarchy has the power to codify doctrine and promulgate it as dogma. Anglicans are, by these definitions, every bit as much Protestant as we are Catholic.

(Now, some will make a distinction between "catholic" the adjective with a small "c", and "Catholic" the proper name with a capital "C". Unfortunately for that distinction, in classical English not only proper nouns but also poetical and spiritual abstracts take capitals. Throughout our Book of Common Prayer, which is the great uniting literary treasure of our communion, the Church is consistently referred to as Catholic, so the distinction doesn't hold. It does seem to work for twenty-first century American, though.)

Lifesaver said:
What would you say is the reason why the Anglican communion is not in communion with Rome? Would you be against a unification, bearing in mind that the Anglicans would be allowed (as many formerly Anglican parishes are today) to keep their liturgy and traditions?
Actually, we recognize the validity of all sacraments celebrated by that portion of the Catholic Church that is in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Members of your communion are welcome at our communion table and in our worship. So, as far as it is within our power, we are in communion with your portion of the Church. I have been invited to recieve the Eucharist consecrated by priests who are in communion with Rome, and I believe that I received from their hand the Body and Blood. So any lack of communion is on the part of those who refuse to come to our table, or who forbid us to come to their table. As far as we are able to create communion between us, we have done so.


Lifesaver said:
What would you say that, personally, constitutes the greatest obstacle for a unification under the authority of Rome (As it was until the XVI century)?

The notion that Rome has authority over other Bishops. We do not equate primacy with authority. Authority belongs to God, and to Bishops, each in his own see, under God. You will not find tacit agreement, either among Anglicans or among phenomenological religious scholars, that Rome wielded unquestioned "authority" rather than "influence" prior to the sixteenth century.

Lifesaver said:
Oh, and let me seize this oportunity to also learn about something I'm quite unclear on: what is the role of the British monarch in the Anglican communion? Is there any religious authority attached? Do they have the authority to make pronoucements about matters of faith? Is it true that if a successor to the throne becomes Catholic they lose their successory rights?
And how likely is it that the queen or the successors will try to make relations better with the Vatican?

Great Britain has religious establishment (something I personally and strongly oppose). The Church of England, which is the established church in Great Britain, is a member of the Anglican communion. However, the legal relationship between the Church of England and the government of Great Britain does not (much) affect the rest of the Anglican communion.

Under establishment, the government ratifies the election of Bishops. So there is some nominal secular authority over the governance of the Church. But the monarch can not make pronouncements about matters of faith, other than as the layperson that she is. And the successor to the throne does indeed lose his successory rights if he puts himself under the authority of the Bishop of Rome.

As head of state, the queen can take a role in *state* relationships with the Vatican state. To improve relationships between that portion of the Catholic Church that is in communion with Rome, and that portion of the Catholic Church that self-identifies as Anglican, would require that our respective Bishops reach out to one another. Preferably without one party being on record as thinking that the other party's episcopacy is null and void.
 
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gtsecc

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I believe some things said in this thread are incorrect.



benedictine said:
The King wanted a divorce and the Pope said no. So the church split.



Ouch. One does hear this a lot, but I don’t think that is the correct answer. Rome was asserting more than Spiritual authority over England. Henry the 8th was Catholic, and called a Defender of the Faith by the Pope. This is an important point because most Protestants split over Theological differences; the Church of England did not. They wanted to remain fully Catholic, then started moving away from that Theologically until the Oxford movement.





pmcleanj said:


Actually, we recognize the validity of all sacraments celebrated by that portion of the Catholic Church that is in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Members of your communion are welcome at our communion table and in our worship. So, as far as it is within our power, we are in communion with your portion of the Church. I have been invited to recieve the Eucharist consecrated by priests who are in communion with Rome, and I believe that I received from their hand the Body and Blood. So any lack of communion is on the part of those who refuse to come to our table, or who forbid us to come to their table. As far as we are able to create communion between us, we have done so.


Pmcleanj, Your answer was fantastic! I never could have said what you said as well. However, I do think Anglicans and Rome have formally disavowed each other’s communion. From the Catholic Encyclopedia "…When, then, they proceeded to administer it, the only reasonable interpretation of their action was that they conformed their intention to their rite, and hence that, from a Catholic point of view, their acts were invalid on a twofold ground: the defect of the form and the defect of the intention." The Anglican communion has likewise disavowed Rome's, but I can't find the wording on the web. I believe it is likely that priests in both denominations will administer and partake in each other’s communion..

Anglicans will allow all Baptized Christians to partake, so we would therefore allow Roman Catholics.

Roman Catholics will not allow any non-Catholics to partake, so therefore Anglicans would be forbidden.

Their Church also forbids Roman Catholics to partake in Anglican Communion.

The Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox recognize each other’s Eucharist as valid.
The Roman Catholics and Anglicans DO NOT recognize each other’s Eucharistas valid.
The Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox ???
 
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pmcleanj

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gtsecc said:

Ouch. One does hear this a lot, but I don’t think that is the correct answer.

If nothing else, it's certainly a gross oversimplification. Thank-you for pointing this out. The English reformation took place in context of a complicated history where Rome played political roles in the balance of power between invading gentry and indiginous peasantry, and where the intellectual speculations from the continent were adding to historic tensions. Also, it was an anullment, not a divorce, that Henry was looking for.

gtsecc said:
However, I do think Anglicans and Rome have formally disavowed each other’s communion.
And excommunicated one another, and discriminated against one another (which in England, where the Anglicans have been the established church for four hundred odd years, has been a pretty one-way discrimination, to our shame). But, since Anglicans don't have an authoritative central hierarchy, we don't have to wait for permission to stop when we realize our behaviour has been stupid and shameful. I wonder if the Anglican disavowal you're thinking of is the Article on transubstantiation? At any rate, I don't know any modern Anglican clergy who deny the validity of Rome's communion. Doubtless though, with the famous Anglican variety on all subjects, there are some who do!

gtsecc said:
I believe it is likely that priests in both denominations will administer and partake in each other’s communion.
Did you mean unlikely? I think that's probably correct, but I don't think it's because Anglicans deny the validity of the others' sacrament. I lurk on some professional liturgy mailing lists. Most of the clergy there know and respect the limits within which their opposite numbers work. The Anglican clergy would never expect to participate with a cleric in communion with Rome, because they know that Rome forbids it, not because they have any problem with it. In fact, 'way back in the gloriously ecumenical 1970's, I attended several Eucharists that were concelebrated by Anglican clergy and clergy in communion with Rome.

gtsecc said:
The Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox recognize each other’s Eucharist as valid....
The Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox ???

As far as I know, Eastern Orthodox Christians don't recognize any sacraments but their own, and do not permit non-Orthodox to partake of their sacraments. Roman and Anglican Catholics both recognize the validity of Eastern Orthodox sacraments, and both admit Eastern Orthodox Christians to their Eucharist; but Eastern Orthodox will not admit Roman or Anglican Catholics and won't receive from a non-Orthodox celebrant.

In England, however, I've heard there is an Agreed of cooperation on pastoral care, between the Church of England and the Eastern Orthodox. I've never been able to get hold of the details of what that entails.
 
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Polycarp1

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I'd thought not to participate, after the problems that ensued in the Ecumenism thread, but on second thought I probably ought to give my perspective.

Lifesaver said:
What would you say is the reason why the Anglican communion is not in communion with Rome?
If you want a completely technical but accurate answer, the reason is that Pius V excommunicated Elizabeth I of England and all her followers in 1570, in a move related to the split of the Anglican Church some 35 years before, but which was founded largely in the dispute between Philip II of Spain, with whom Pius was allied politically, and Elizabeth. That excommunication was never revoked, and is the single key technical problem today. Catholics are more than welcome at the Lord's Table in any Anglican church; what stops them is not us but their own church's teachings.

Would you be against a unification, bearing in mind that the Anglicans would be allowed (as many formerly Anglican parishes are today) to keep their liturgy and traditions?
No, they would not. I regret saying this, but much of Anglican liturgy, including the ordination rite, is deemed heretical by ultraorthodox Catholics. Let me give you some examples of problems: I am in submission to the two priests who serve my parish, and to the bishop of our diocese. The priests are a married couple, husband and wife, and both they and the bishop are strong supporters of Gene Robinson. They would not be permitted to continue in the views they hold, and Lorraine would not be permitted to continue exercising her calling as a priest in God's Church.

What would you say that, personally, constitutes the greatest obstacle for a unification under the authority of Rome (As it was until the XVI century)?
Well, I'd date the splitting of the church back to Chalcedon, not the Anglican/Roman Catholic split, which was purely one element in the Reformation-Era divisions. But I think that Catholic ecclesiology is the biggest single barrier. Either we are a constituent part of the Holy Catholic Church, or we are not. According to Catholicism, we are not, and participate in it only insofar as our schismatic and heretical doctrines correspond to those of Rome. Much as I wish there were, there appears to be no ground for compromise there.

Oh, and let me seize this oportunity to also learn about something I'm quite unclear on: what is the role of the British monarch in the Anglican communion? Is there any religious authority attached? Do they have the authority to make pronoucements about matters of faith?
People have addressed this already -- but what you need to see is that it's a holdover from the days when the Crown was the secular authority -- it was the monarch's job, as the supreme layman of the land, to ensure that the Church was protected and enabled to do its work. Old Bluff King Hal said it memorably to a synod: "You are the Bishops of the Church. But I am the bishop (=overseer) of the Nation."

Is it true that if a successor to the throne becomes Catholic they lose their successory rights?
This is in fact true, a holdover from the days when the Catholic son and grandsons of James II were pretenders to the throne. I suspect it could be quietly repealed with no real furore, except among the extremist anti-Catholics of the English low church. In any case, it affects only the Church of England, not the other 27 members of the Anglican Communion.

And how likely is it that the queen or the successors will try to make relations better with the Vatican?
Charles, Prince of Wales, has received some truly bad press the past few years, and probably deservedly. But one of the good points about him is that he is very interested in seeing a rapprochement between Catholicism and the English church, and has used his role as heir to the throne to try to promote that, including several meetings with John Paul II.
 
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benedictine

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gtsecc said:
The real reason Anglo-Catholics would not rejoin Rome:
Roman Catholics view touching yourself as a sin; Anglicans do not.
Eh... My former priest does. And, he's a very liberal theologian. But he views touching yourself as a sin.

~~~Pax Christi
 
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pmcleanj said:
Great Britain has religious establishment (something I personally and strongly oppose). The Church of England, which is the established church in Great Britain, is a member of the Anglican communion.
It's slightly more complicated.

The British Isles has 4 main Anglican churches. The Church of England, the Church of Scotland, the Church in Wales and the Church of Ireland (which covers both Northern Ireland, part of the UK, and the Republic of Ireland, which is it's own country).

The Churches of Ireland, Scotland and Wales were disestablished (much to the dismay of antidisestablismentarians*) but are still alive and well. The Church of England is the official national church of England and is governed by the Queen (but mostly self-governing). the Archbishop of Canterbury crowns the monarch of the UK.

Just to be clear:

Ireland = Northern Ireland + Republic of Ireland.
Great Britain = England + Scotland + Wales
UK = Great Britain + Northern Ireland.




pmcleanj said:
However, the legal relationship between the Church of England and the government of Great Britain does not (much) affect the rest of the Anglican communion.
Correct.

Polycarp1 said:
If you want a completely technical but accurate answer, the reason is that Pius V excommunicated Elizabeth I of England and all her followers in 1570, in a move related to the split of the Anglican Church some 35 years before, but which was founded largely in the dispute between Philip II of Spain, with whom Pius was allied politically, and Elizabeth.
...Which paved the way for the Spanish Armada in 1588, from which was born the British Empire.

gtsecc said:
Anglicans will allow all Baptized Christians to partake, so we would therefore allow Roman Catholics.


Sometimes true but not always. From the churches I've been to (and certainly my school priest) the requirement for communion was either:


  • [*]That you were either a confirmed anglican


or


  • [*]Were a baptised member of a triune church (one that baptises in nomine Patri, Fili et Spiritu Sancti a.k.a. "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit". (see the Nicene Creed Baptism clause: "We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins") And would qualify for communion in that church.


    For example, if you were Catholic, you would have to be confirmed Catholic to be eligible. Not so if you were Methodist (as they don't generally confirm).


The second one isn't a cut-and-dry rule though.


* Yay, I used that word in a thread :D
 
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PaladinValer

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1. The King wanted an annulment, not a divorce. That's a very common mistake to make.
2. A lot of the others had said good arguments, especially those that deal with the Pope, purgatory, transubstantiationism, and other "exacting arguments." In these, we are, in fact, closer to the Eastern Orthodox Church than to the Vatican Catholic one.
3. To add:

1. Women's ordination
2. Homosexual/bisexual issues (and I'm asking for no arguments on this issue, for the love of God. I bring them up only because they are most definitely a "barrier," and if what I just mentioned turns into a fight, I'm out of this thread.)
3. Who is welcome at the Altar for the Holy Eucharist
 
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Jason of Wyoming

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gtsecc said:
The Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox recognize each other’s Eucharist as valid.
The Roman Catholics and Anglicans DO NOT recognize each other’s Eucharistas valid.
The Anglicans and Eastern Orthodox ???
Old Catholics recognize the Eucharist of RCC, Eastern Orthodox, and Anglicans.
 
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PaladinValer said:
The Anglican Communion recognizes the validity of the Sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Vatican Catholic Church.
And, for the most part, the validity of the Sacraments of the Old Catholic Churches of the Union of Utrecht, the Lusitanian Church, and a few other "reformed catholic churches." Just because they're relatively small, let's not leave them out of the picture!
 
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RobNJ

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julian the apostate said:
stop me if i am wrong, or missed it

but dont the anglicans also recognize the validity of rome's sacraments?

(having just been received as against confirmed in ecusa due to roman confirmation)
Well, I am aware of that & I believe it was alluded to, about a foot or so of text ago;)
I'm going to join the ECUSA by confimation in November, and was told that if I had been either Baptized or Confirmed in either the Orthodox , or Roman Catholic church, I could have been "recieved " instead (Baptized by a Presbyterian grandfather, Confimed in the R.C.A...no bishops involved)
 
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