Angels

[CoreyD]

That night the angel of the LORD went out to the Assyrian camp and killed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers. 2 Kings 19:35

Just one angel killed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers in one night.
The Bible says, at Armageddon, Jesus will come with all the angels. Matthew 25:31
Image the size of Jesus' army - Daniel 7:10 says of the angels surrounding God's throne... "a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him". Myriads of myriads. Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 5:11

What an army of superior might.
Thus we expect a slaughter at Armageddon.
The Bible describes it this way...
Those slain by the LORD on that day will be spread from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried. They will be like dung lying on the ground. Jeremiah 25:33 (See Revelation 19:17-21)

Angels indeed are powerful 2 Peter 2:11, and will be used in a mighty way to vanquish God's enemies. 2 Thessalonians 1:7
God values the willing service of this magnificent creation - the angels.
God says of them... “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” Hebrews 1:7
They are God's ministers.

Thus, like Jesus, and the holy spirit, angels are very important to God, for assisting those on earth God is seeking to save. Hebrews 2:16
The Greek word translated angel, means messenger.
Angels are God's messengers.

When Jesus was on earth, God said, "This is my beloved son. Listen to him." Mark 9:7
Like Jesus, and the prophets of old 2 Kings 17:13, 14; Acts 3:21-23, and the prophets today 1 Corinthians 12:28, the angels bear a message from God, which God wants all to pay attention to.

Spoiler: Acts 3:21-23

whom the heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, whereof God spake by the mouth of His holy prophets that have been from of old. 22 Moses said, ‘THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR COUNTRYMEN; TO HIM YOU SHALL LISTEN regarding everything He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul that does not listen to that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

So, how do we view God's angelic messengers?
Do we respect them and listen to them?
That will be the focus of this thread.

And a voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, whom I have chosen. Listen to Him!”
Luke 9:35

On many past occasions and in many different ways, God spoke to our fathers through the prophets. But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things...
Hebrews 1:1, 2​

One way Jesus has spoken to us, is by means of angels - messengers of God.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants - things which must shortly take place.
And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John

Note
Though the book of Revelation will be the primary focus of this thread, the book of Daniel will also be considered, but the title of the thread will be maintained - ANGELS.
Also, if you decide to comment in this thread, please remember to pay attention to, and follow the guidelines of the Statement of Purpose, for the sub-forums. Thank you.

So, the question is, are we listening to the angels... including the one sent by Jesus?

 

[d taylor]

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The angel of The Lord in The Old Testament is Jesus

 

[CoreyD]

Visions of Beasts

Daniel 7:2, 3
2 Daniel declared: “In my vision in the night I looked, and suddenly the four winds of heaven were churning up the great sea.
3 Then four great beasts came up out of the sea, each one different from the others:

4 The first beast was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle.
5 Suddenly another beast appeared, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth.
6 Next, as I watched, suddenly another beast appeared. It was like a leopard, and on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. The beast also had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.
7 After this, as I watched in my vision in the night, suddenly a fourth beast appeared, and it was terrifying—dreadful and extremely strong—with large iron teeth.

The Angel's Explanation
15 I, Daniel, was grieved in my spirit, and the visions in my mind alarmed me.
18 I approached one of those who were standing there, and I asked him the true meaning of all this. So he told me the interpretation of these things:
17 ‘These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth.

The angel told me the interpretation of these things:
These four great beasts are [אִנּוּן] four kings who will arise from the earth.​

Symbolic Reference
אִנּוּן
used to refer to groups; used to denote a collective group, emphasizing their identity or actions; used to ensure that the audience understood who was being referred to

The angel says the Beast refers to / symbolizes / represents Kings.


A Vision of a Beast

Revelation 17:3
And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast being full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

The Angel's Explanation
9 Here is the mind having wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains, where the woman sits on them;
10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. But when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.
11 The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction.
12 The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings along with the beast.

The angel explains...
The seven heads are [οὗτος] seven mountains, where the woman sits on them; There are [οὗτος] also seven kings.
The beast that was, and now is not, is [οὗτος] an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven.
The ten horns you saw are [οὗτος] ten kings.​

Symbolic Reference
οὗτος
used to denote existence, identity, or presence. In the New Testament, it often serves as a linking verb, connecting the subject with a predicate nominative or adjective. It is essential for expressing states of being and is frequently used in statements of identity, existence, and presence.
used so that the pronoun refers to something which has just been said

The angel says the Beast, heads, and horns refers to / symbolizes / represents Kings.

Did you listen?
Do you respect the angels, by accepting their explanation?
If so, then you accept that the angels in delivering their message, used horns and beast as a symbol to represents kings and kingdoms. Daniel 7:23, 24

 

[CoreyD]

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The angel of The Lord in The Old Testament is Jesus

Is that an orthodox view, or is that considered a non-Christian view, since it would mean that the son of God, is a created being - a messenger of God, though chief, but subordinate to God?

Did you read the Statement of Purpose for the sub-forum?

 

[d taylor]

Is that an orthodox view, or is that considered a non-Christian view, since it would mean that the son of God, is a created being - a messenger of God, though chief, but subordinate to God?

Did you read the Statement of Purpose for the sub-forum?

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Read Judges chapter 13

And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”

 

[CoreyD]

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Read Judges chapter 13

And the Angel of the Lord said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?”
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”

So, did you say that in order to say God is an angelic messenger who sent himself?
Exodus 23:23
For My angel will go before you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them.

Exodus 32:34
But go now, lead the people where I told you. Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless on the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

Do you believe God is a messenger... an angel...? Of whom?

 

[d taylor]

So, did you say that in order to say God is an angelic messenger who sent himself?
Exodus 23:23
For My angel will go before you and bring you into the land of the Amorites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; and I will completely destroy them.

Exodus 32:34
But go now, lead the people where I told you. Behold, My angel shall go before you; nevertheless on the day when I punish, I will punish them for their sin.”

Do you believe God is a messenger... an angel...? Of whom?

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You are not reading what The Bible is saying. It is not My angel or an angel, but every time the angel of The lord is used that is a reference to the preincarnate Christ.

 

[CoreyD]

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You are not reading what The Bible is saying. It is not My angel or an angel, but every time the angel of The lord is used that is a reference to the preincarnate Christ.

You are not responding to me.
Are angels created beings?

 

[com7fy8]

So, how do we view God's angelic messengers?
Do we respect them and listen to them?
That will be the focus of this thread.

The Angel's Explanation
9 Here is the mind having wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains, where the woman sits on them;
10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. But when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.
11 The beast that was, and now is not, is an eighth king, who belongs to the other seven and is going into destruction.
12 The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings along with the beast.

Do you respect the angels, by accepting their explanation?
If so, then you accept that the angels in delivering their message, used horns and beast as a symbol to represents kings and kingdoms.

Yes.

Also, we need to honor the angels by doing what this message means for us to do, not only to accept the explanation but to do what it means for us to do.

We do not only accept an explanation, but live by every word of God.

Appreciate how God has personally communicated with us.

Thank Him for personally sharing with us, including how He has included angels in His process of bringing His kingdom, honoring the angels to be included, and including us. And so we honor this by including one another as our family in love and sharing together in how God uses us for doing His will.

And grow in Jesus so we are prepared in character of God's love for all which God knows is to come. Trust and depend on God to change us to become truly submissive to Him so we are sure to obey Him during all which is coming.

And learn from Jesus, so we are doing things in His "rest for your souls" > in Matthew 11:28-29. God will want us to be submissive to Him so we do His will in His "rest for your souls" - - not fearing, not worrying, not self-righteously judging ones who are wrong and who might not correctly understand things of God's prophecy.

Yes, and warn people, now, so they turn to Jesus, so they are ready for Jesus. And do not only be thinking about the troubles and judgments to come. But be getting ready for how we will be sharing eternity with Jesus and one another, loving as His family in His holiness of His love.

This is included, I would say, in respecting a message of God.

 

[d taylor]

You are not responding to me.
Are angels created beings?

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Angels are created being, but the Angel of The Lord is not an angel.

 

[com7fy8]

Are angels created beings?

Yes.

But > Jesus is called the Son of David, though Jesus is not David's created son. And Jesus is called the Lamb of God and the Lion of Judah. And Jesus is called a "Man".

So, calling Him God's Messenger or Angel does not seem too hard of a stretch.

Jesus is the Word of God. And He brought us God's word. If He can be called the Word, what is so hard about Him being called "the" Angel?

And Moses did say there would be a "Prophet" whom they must hear (Deuteronomy 18:15). Ones consider this was speaking of Jesus who did say the scriptures "are they which testify of Me" > in John 5:39.

Plus, in the Book of Acts we have the apostles calling Jesus God's "holy Servant", in Acts 4:27&30.

So, if Jesus can be called "Servant", I have no problem with Him being called "the Angel of the LORD". Because He has brought us God's message. And angels, like you say, bring messages.

 

[CoreyD]

Yes.

Also, we need to honor the angels by doing what this message means for us to do, not only to accept the explanation but to do what it means for us to do.

We do not only accept an explanation, but live by every word of God.

Appreciate how God has personally communicated with us.

Thank Him for personally sharing with us, including how He has included angels in His process of bringing His kingdom, honoring the angels to be included, and including us. And so we honor this by including one another as our family in love and sharing together in how God uses us for doing His will.

And grow in Jesus so we are prepared in character of God's love for all which God knows is to come. Trust and depend on God to change us to become truly submissive to Him so we are sure to obey Him during all which is coming.

And learn from Jesus, so we are doing things in His "rest for your souls" > in Matthew 11:28-29. God will want us to be submissive to Him so we do His will in His "rest for your souls" - - not fearing, not worrying, not self-righteously judging ones who are wrong and who might not correctly understand things of God's prophecy.

Yes, and warn people, now, so they turn to Jesus, so they are ready for Jesus. And do not only be thinking about the troubles and judgments to come. But be getting ready for how we will be sharing eternity with Jesus and one another, loving as His family in His holiness of His love.

This is included, I would say, in respecting a message of God.

Yes, the angels are also given the privilege of declaring the good news. Revelation 14:6
What a privilege followers of Jesus have, to work with glorious ones in declaring God's message of salvation!

Yes.

But > Jesus is called the Son of David, though Jesus is not David's created son. And Jesus is called the Lamb of God and the Lion of Judah. And Jesus is called a "Man".

So, calling Him God's Messenger or Angel does not seem too hard of a stretch.

Jesus is the Word of God. And He brought us God's word. If He can be called the Word, what is so hard about Him being called "the" Angel?

And Moses did say there would be a "Prophet" whom they must hear (Deuteronomy 18:15). Ones consider this was speaking of Jesus who did say the scriptures "are they which testify of Me" > in John 5:39.

Plus, in the Book of Acts we have the apostles calling Jesus God's "holy Servant", in Acts 4:27&30.

So, if Jesus can be called "Servant", I have no problem with Him being called "the Angel of the LORD". Because He has brought us God's message. And angels, like you say, bring messages.

Jesus was indeed the son of David (Matthew 1:1; Matthew 1:20), as the scriptures say. Jesus is also the figurative lamb of God, and lion of the tribe of Judah.
The scriptures refer to Christ as son of man, and he is a servant Acts 3:13 - the foremost, and an apostle and high priest as well Hebrews 3:1.

You are not saying that these are not true, are you?
Then, I'm not following your line of argument.

If you are saying the son of God is an angel... that being before Jesus came to earth,, and an angel is a created being, then that would make the son of God, a created being, wouldn't it?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The messenger of the Lord, the voice of the Lord, the Word of the Lord ... sure.

 

[CoreyD]

The messenger of the Lord, the voice of the Lord, the Word of the Lord ... sure.

If persons said Jesus was the messenger of the Lord, as the Greek word מֲלְאָךְ - malak can mean either messenger, or angel, then they could avoid "tripping themselves", since referring to Jesus as a messenger... the word of God... that is, chief spokesman, would not make Jesus a created being.
On the other hand, saying that Jesus is an angel... which is a created being (creature), one would be agreeing that Jesus was created and is subordinate to God... which goes against the primary teaching of these forums.
Isn't that so?

 

[com7fy8]

If you are saying the son of God is an angel... that being before Jesus came to earth,, and an angel is a created being, then that would make the son of God, a created being, wouldn't it?

Hi, Corey . . . I mean Jesus is the Creator of angels and lambs and lions and human sons. And yet, He is called "Lamb", "Lion", "Angel", and "Son". These terms are metaphorical . . . not meaning He is a creature, but these terms can help to show something which is true of Jesus as our Creator and Savior and Lord. So, if He is "the Angel of the LORD", this does not mean He is a created angel . . . just like calling Him "the Lamb of God" does not mean He is a created lamb.

I now think of this. When the Angel of the LORD showed up in a situation, things changed quite a lot . . . maybe we could say a lot more than when a created angel appeared and did something. And, like this, the Lamb of God has done a lot more than a created lamb on a human altar has done, in sacrifice. And I think of how the Angel of the LORD is not named, while Gabriel and Michael are named. So, I see how this could mean the Angel of the LORD is Jesus whose name would be revealed in due time.

I did not think of this before you just wrote to me about this. So, I'm just offering what I have just gotten.

 

[CoreyD]

Hi, Corey . . . I mean Jesus is the Creator of angels and lambs and lions and human sons. And yet, He is called "Lamb", "Lion", "Angel", and "Son". These terms are metaphorical . . . not meaning He is a creature, but these terms can help to show something which is true of Jesus as our Creator and Savior and Lord. So, if He is "the Angel of the LORD", this does not mean He is a created angel . . . just like calling Him "the Lamb of God" does not mean He is a created lamb.

I now think of this. When the Angel of the LORD showed up in a situation, things changed quite a lot . . . maybe we could say a lot more than when a created angel appeared and did something. And, like this, the Lamb of God has done a lot more than a created lamb on a human altar has done, in sacrifice. And I think of how the Angel of the LORD is not named, while Gabriel and Michael are named. So, I see how this could mean the Angel of the LORD is Jesus whose name would be revealed in due time.

I did not think of this before you just wrote to me about this. So, I'm just offering what I have just gotten.

Sorry. I'm confused.
I don't understand what it is you are trying to reason out.

To the question...

Are angels created beings?

You said, Yes.
So, are you saying you disagree with @d taylor who said...
The angel of The Lord in The Old Testament is Jesus
Or are you saying that angel / messenger used in those scriptures are used metaphorically, and if that is the case, what are they used metaphorically for? How is the term angel and messenger used metaphorically?

I'm just trying to understand you, because currently, I'm not clear on what you are actually saying.
If at all possible, can you use scriptures, because what I read here seems opinionated. Is it?

 

[com7fy8]

Or are you saying that angel / messenger used in those scriptures are used metaphorically, and if that is the case, what are they used metaphorically for? How is the term angel and messenger used metaphorically?

If Jesus is called an "angel", it is metaphorical . . . like how if He is called "Lamb" or "Lion".

 

[CoreyD]

If Jesus is called an "angel", it is metaphorical . . . like how if He is called "Lamb" or "Lion".

I can see how that opinion would remove the problem of the chief messenger of God being a created being, but while it is an explanation, is it a scriptural explanation?
Evidently not, because God did not speak of this one metaphorically. God said, an מֲלְאָךְ - malak, and my מֲלְאָךְ - malak.

I think if we translate that word as messenger, instead of angel, it would remove the problem.
Claiming that it is a metaphor, and having no scriptural basis for doing so, except having an idea, is merely opinionated, and not scriptural.

When we go all the way back to Genesis 16:7-12, for example, passing through Genesis 22:11-15 and coming all the way down to Exodus 23:20-23, the description is not metaphorical.
These texts refer to an actual angel. Even Numbers 20:16, does so, in recounting the events.

The angel that gave the donkey a voice isn't a metaphor. Numbers 22:22-35
If we take this approach, it gives us leeway to take any scripture and make it say whatever we want it to.
Any place where we read "angel" can be metaphorical.

The practice of interpreting something in a way that cannot be scripturally justified, is a practice I find is very common in this world's Christianity.
It's not a practice I admire.
What about you... do you appreciate it... that is, if you have noticed it?

If one wants Jesus to be that angel, why not just use the word messenger instead?
That, would be more scriptural, than injecting ideas into the texts.
Or, leave it as God's angel... which doesn't have to be the only begotten son of God, since God has many sons, and Michael is chief angel, which many do not believe, is Jesus.

So, why can't the angel not be Michael... or Gabriel?
What scriptural basis is there for saying that this angel is Jesus?
Is it Exodus 23:20, 21 Pay attention to him and listen to his voice; do not defy him, for he will not forgive rebellion, since My Name is in him.

 

[com7fy8]

If one wants Jesus to be that angel, why not just use the word messenger instead?

Because when an angel brings a message, often the angel does a lot more than bring the message. But a messenger might not do anything else.

As for scriptural backing > the scriptures say that Jesus was not made manifest until He came in the flesh. So, calling Him the "Angel of the LORD" could be part of not fully manifesting Jesus until His time. And the term is the metaphor > like how using "Lamb" is metaphorical while Jesus is not a metaphor. He could be called a messenger, too . . . though He is so more as God's own Son.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You are not responding to me.
Are angels created beings?

An angel just means messenger, it doesn’t always mean a created being. Jesus is not a created being but He is the greatest Messenger of all.