And he gave ...

[Xeno.of.athens]

Some interpret 2 Timothy 3:16-17 as evidence that the Bible alone is sufficient for guiding us to eternal life. If this were the case, then the testimony found in Ephesians would be unnecessary.

The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ. We must no longer be children, tossed to and fro and blown about by every wind of doctrine, by people's trickery, by their craftiness in deceitful scheming. But speaking the truth in love, we must grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knitted together by every ligament with which it is equipped, as each part is working properly, promotes the body's growth in building itself up in love.​

(Ephesians 4:11-16 NRSV)

God endowed His Church with pastors, bishops, evangelists, teachers, prophets, and apostles; these are the individuals who shepherd the Church on its journey to eternal life.

 

[RandyPNW]

Some interpret 2 Timothy 3:16-17 as evidence that the Bible alone is sufficient for guiding us to eternal life. If this were the case, then the testimony found in Ephesians would be unnecessary.

The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ. We must no longer be children, tossed to and fro and blown about by every wind of doctrine, by people's trickery, by their craftiness in deceitful scheming. But speaking the truth in love, we must grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knitted together by every ligament with which it is equipped, as each part is working properly, promotes the body's growth in building itself up in love.​

(Ephesians 4:11-16 NRSV)

God endowed His Church with pastors, bishops, evangelists, teachers, prophets, and apostles; these are the individuals who shepherd the Church on its journey to eternal life.

Of course that's true. God used the apostles, as well as others to write the Scriptures. The Scriptures, however, became the rule in the same way that Paul said, with apostolic authority, that God made the apostles the "foundation" for the Church. If the apostles were the "foundation" for the Church, then what they wrote was authoritative and our "rule." And all those who wrote the Scriptures were supported by the apostles.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Of course that's true. God used the apostles, as well as others to write the Scriptures. The Scriptures, however, became the rule in the same way that Paul said, with apostolic authority, that God made the apostles the "foundation" for the Church. If the apostles were the "foundation" for the Church, then what they wrote was authoritative and our "rule." And all those who wrote the Scriptures were supported by the apostles.

Saint Paul isn't the one who refers to the twelve apostles of the Lamb of God as the foundations of the Church, I think that homour belongs to saint John who wrote the Apocalypse in which we find, "Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, 'Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.' And in the spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. It has the glory of God and a radiance like a very rare jewel, like jasper, clear as crystal. It has a great, high wall with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates are inscribed the names of the twelve tribes of the Israelites; on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Revelation 21:9-14 NRSV)

 

[RandyPNW]

Saint Paul isn't the one who refers to the twelve apostles of the Lamb of God as the foundations of the Church, I think that homour belongs to saint John who wrote the Apocalypse in which we find, "Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, 'Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.' And in the spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. It has the glory of God and a radiance like a very rare jewel, like jasper, clear as crystal. It has a great, high wall with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates are inscribed the names of the twelve tribes of the Israelites; on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Revelation 21:9-14 NRSV)

All of the apostles, along with Paul, were the foundation for the Church. The 12 apostles were primary in the establishment of the Church on the basis of Jesus' teaching. Paul's ministry was based on this same model and provided a foundational ministry, as well.

When Paul suggested the Church is built upon the foundation of the apostles, I feel confident he included himself in the ministry of establishing foundational work for the Church.

Rom 15.20 It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.
1 Cor 3.10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care.

So Paul was part of the foundation for the churches where he established them. I think the passage in Revelation is speaking of the initial foundation laid down with Jesus' teaching at the beginning of the Church.

Here, Paull makes it clear that the work of building a foundation was not just reserved to apostles, but also to prophets who were doing similar foundational work at the beginning of the Church...

Eph 2.20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

So my initial point is that the rule, doctrinally, was set down at the very beginning, with the teaching of Jesus, the teaching of the 12 apostles, and the teaching of Paul, Barnabas, and others who were well acquainted with the teaching of Jesus via his 12 apostles.

The farther away we get from Jesus' original teaching the more capable we are of diluting those teachings, if we do not rely upon the Scriptures. People should not today claim apostleship to the degree they feel they can amend the Scriptures or invent new rules.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

All of the apostles, along with Paul, were the foundation for the Church.

You think that saint Paul is one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb?

 

[RandyPNW]

You think that saint Paul is one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb?

No, he definitely is not one of the 12. He himself said he arrived late to be one of them! He was, in a sense, almost born "out of time." But he and Barnabus were apostles, and they did lay the foundation for many churches. Through his Scriptures Paul laid a foundation for us all.

Gal 2.2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

 

[Dan Perez]

Saint Paul isn't the one who refers to the twelve apostles of the Lamb of God as the foundations of the Church, I think that homour belongs to saint John who wrote the Apocalypse in which we find, "Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, 'Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.' And in the spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. It has the glory of God and a radiance like a very rare jewel, like jasper, clear as crystal. It has a great, high wall with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates are inscribed the names of the twelve tribes of the Israelites; on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city has twelve foundations, and on them are the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Revelation 21:9-14 NRSV)

And EKKLESIA does not mean church .

The Greek word EKKLESIA , means the following !

EK means OUT OF .

KLESIA means A CALLING

And EKKLESIA means ASSEMBLY .

And John 21: 16-19 we see that Peter would die of OLD AGE IN verses 18 and 19 .

dan p

 

[Guojing]

Some interpret 2 Timothy 3:16-17 as evidence that the Bible alone is sufficient for guiding us to eternal life. If this were the case, then the testimony found in Ephesians would be unnecessary.

The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ. We must no longer be children, tossed to and fro and blown about by every wind of doctrine, by people's trickery, by their craftiness in deceitful scheming. But speaking the truth in love, we must grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knitted together by every ligament with which it is equipped, as each part is working properly, promotes the body's growth in building itself up in love.​

(Ephesians 4:11-16 NRSV)

God endowed His Church with pastors, bishops, evangelists, teachers, prophets, and apostles; these are the individuals who shepherd the Church on its journey to eternal life.

gave is past tense, not present.

 

[Dan Perez]

gave is past tense, not present.

Guojing has it right on , as it is in the PAST TENSE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD and that means , you better believe it

And just who are those Christ chose , us , apostle just means messenger and that all Peter was a messenger .and never was THE STONE .

dan p

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

gave is past tense, not present.

"Until all of us come to the unity of the faith" is future tense.

 

[ARBITER01]

All of the apostles, along with Paul, were the foundation for the Church. The 12 apostles were primary in the establishment of the Church on the basis of Jesus' teaching. Paul's ministry was based on this same model and provided a foundational ministry, as well.

When Paul suggested the Church is built upon the foundation of the apostles, I feel confident he included himself in the ministry of establishing foundational work for the Church.

Rom 15.20 It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else’s foundation.
1 Cor 3.10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care.

So Paul was part of the foundation for the churches where he established them. I think the passage in Revelation is speaking of the initial foundation laid down with Jesus' teaching at the beginning of the Church.

Here, Paull makes it clear that the work of building a foundation was not just reserved to apostles, but also to prophets who were doing similar foundational work at the beginning of the Church...

Eph 2.20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

So my initial point is that the rule, doctrinally, was set down at the very beginning, with the teaching of Jesus, the teaching of the 12 apostles, and the teaching of Paul, Barnabas, and others who were well acquainted with the teaching of Jesus via his 12 apostles.

The farther away we get from Jesus' original teaching the more capable we are of diluting those teachings, if we do not rely upon the Scriptures. People should not today claim apostleship to the degree they feel they can amend the Scriptures or invent new rules.

The majority of the NT teaching came through Paul.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The majority of the NT teaching came through Paul.

Majority?

the core of every New Testament teaching comes from the four gospels and has its roots in the teaching of Christ.

 

[ARBITER01]

Majority?

the core of every New Testament teaching comes from the four gospels and has its roots in the teaching of Christ.

I would disagree

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I would disagree

Do you believe that Saint Paul conceived the majority of the New Testament teachings independently of Jesus' teachings?

 

[Guojing]

"Until all of us come to the unity of the faith" is future tense.

Do you think this will happen only at the 2nd coming?

 

[ARBITER01]

Do you believe that Saint Paul conceived the majority of the New Testament teachings independently of Jesus' teachings?

I see his teaching being in agreement with the gospels, but Jesus was able to take things much further through Paul. There are some subjects that without Paul's teaching, we would have no idea about, such as the gifts.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Do you think this will happen only at the 2nd coming?

Maturity develops over time through learning and education, which is why God has provided the Church with pastors, bishops, evangelists, among others.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I see his teaching being in agreement with the gospels, but Jesus was able to take things much further through Paul. There are some subjects that without Paul's teaching, we would have no idea about, such as the gifts.

Are you referring to the spiritual gifts that Pentecostal Christians believe are active today, such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing?

 

[ARBITER01]

Are you referring to the spiritual gifts that Pentecostal Christians believe are active today, such as speaking in tongues, prophecy, and healing?

Of course.

There are certain doctrinal stances also that Jesus revealed through Paul in those letters to the churches that help guide them. Without Paul and the teachings that Jesus revealed through him in those letters, we would be way worse off.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Of course.

There are certain doctrinal stances also that Jesus revealed through Paul in those letters to the churches that help guide them. Without Paul and the teachings that Jesus revealed through him in those letters, we would be way worse off.

The topics of tongues, healing, and prophecy are not the focus of this discussion thread.