And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness

[Debi1967]

what is HGTV?

Fox news is great I wish I was still able to get it

yeah, there is a huge amount of celebrity gossip and other fripery classed as 'news'

Home and Garden Television
It is a Do It yourself network like DYI is and has all these shows that show you home improvement techniques that you can do on the cheap that make your house beautiful and I am into that kind of stuff.

 

[MrJim]

Romans12 1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be conceited. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. 20 To the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head. 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Continued passages tied in with having no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness...note in this chapter the nature of the Christian life is expounded again, with similar passages that can be found elsewhere in the NT.

I want to focus a bit on this:
3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment,

Often in my walk I think of myself as being mature and confident in dealing with things such as entertainment. I can "handle" this sort of movie, I can be "objective" in watching this, though I certainly don't think kids or immature Christians should view it.

Yet how often am I using this as an excuse to avail myself to the WORLD's ways? At what point am I any different than the unsaved when I have the same taste in entertainments as he? I am only fooling myself~thinking more highly of myself than I ought~in that this will not effect me in any way. Yet it does, and not admitting it is only lying to myself. A true turning from the world is going to create a different creature~that new creature scripture speaks of.

Whenever I am putting myself ahead of another, that is thinking more highly of myself. The "self-esteem" lie (that you need to trust/love/believe in yourself) makes it easy to want to put myself ahead, after all it's simply being "assertive", letting myself be heard and not being a "doormat", right? That is what this world is teaching us~yet our passage says we are to be renewed, not conformed. It ain't about us, church~it's about them.

 

[Miss Shelby]

Romans12 1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. 3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4 For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness. 9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. 13 Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be conceited. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord. 20 To the contrary, if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head. 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Continued passages tied in with having no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness...note in this chapter the nature of the Christian life is expounded again, with similar passages that can be found elsewhere in the NT.

I want to focus a bit on this:
3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment,

Often in my walk I think of myself as being mature and confident in dealing with things such as entertainment. I can "handle" this sort of movie, I can be "objective" in watching this, though I certainly don't think kids or immature Christians should view it.

Yet how often am I using this as an excuse to avail myself to the WORLD's ways? At what point am I any different than the unsaved when I have the same taste in entertainments as he? I am only fooling myself~thinking more highly of myself than I ought~in that this will not effect me in any way. Yet it does, and not admitting it is only lying to myself. A true turning from the world is going to create a different creature~that new creature scripture speaks of.

Whenever I am putting myself ahead of another, that is thinking more highly of myself. The "self-esteem" lie (that you need to trust/love/believe in yourself) makes it easy to want to put myself ahead, after all it's simply being "assertive", letting myself be heard and not being a "doormat", right? That is what this world is teaching us~yet our passage says we are to be renewed, not conformed. It ain't about us, church~it's about them.

weird that you should mentioned this. When I first read your thread I thought of this passage. And doesn't it also say in Philipians to treat others as though they are better, and to not think we are better than others? I don't think this is meant in an unhealthy way-- I think it just means to treat others with the respect they deserve as humans made in the image of God. I think the passages speak of humility. And you're right, the world teaches us the exact opposite, to look out for number 1.

 

[rebel_conservative]

Home and Garden Television
It is a Do It yourself network like DYI is and has all these shows that show you home improvement techniques that you can do on the cheap that make your house beautiful and I am into that kind of stuff.

that's nice you must have a beautiful home

Often in my walk I think of myself as being mature and confident in dealing with things such as entertainment. I can "handle" this sort of movie, I can be "objective" in watching this, though I certainly don't think kids or immature Christians should view it.

I think that when I am watching something, there is the nagging feeling that I know I should not watch it, but I am corrupted by the world, that I kid myself I can handle it. If there is nudity on tv, I either turn away (if it is one of those 'integral to the plot' things ) or I just turn tv over, I just don't like it. but often the themes are simply wrong, showing women as sexually available, casual sex as natural and advisable, abortion as an option and other things that we can't turn away from. I think we should turn the tv off at this point, but it is very difficult.

Yet how often am I using this as an excuse to avail myself to the WORLD's ways? At what point am I any different than the unsaved when I have the same taste in entertainments as he? I am only fooling myself~thinking more highly of myself than I ought~in that this will not effect me in any way. Yet it does, and not admitting it is only lying to myself. A true turning from the world is going to create a different creature~that new creature scripture speaks of.

I agree, it does not seem right that the only distinction between us and the unsaved is a simple profession of faith, you are right, it should be manifest in other ways.

 

[JPPT1974]

We need to not be conformed to the world
As God isn't as we need to look
More above to heaven.

 

[MrJim]

I posted this in another thread, thought I'd put it here too.

Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

The new FU allows all, so if believers want to work in this atmosphere we'll have to deal with these issues as they arise. I has to be noted that with all the "Jesus ate with sinners" passages there is still the rest of scripture to deal with too. And He gave no OK to the heathen worship of the day, in fact spoke often of the Kingdom of God, and the exclusivity of worship to Him alone.

1Cor5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person

All in the context, scripture teaches that we do not fellowship with unrepentant brethren in these cases~not the world of unbelievers in their sins, but with believers. I then cannot fellowship with many that are called Christians that fall into this category, because as new creatures in Christ they are to know better (through Holy Spirit conviction, through teaching, through scripture, through admonition of elders). And guess what? When I am unrepentant and in sin I have to be confronted~I have to be disfellowshipped (is that a word?) until I've repented of my sin, yet in our "I'm ok you're ok we don't judge" world this doesn't happen much at all~but it does happen, and I've had posters here get on me when I'm out of line (lambslove was aces at this for me). It's easy to look at a "Christian Satanist" (whatever that might mean ) and disregard the wrath-filled brother that is "on your side". I can sit at the sidelines and cheer "Go get 'em", but that is not what we are called to be or do.

Lines are blurry, and we are in the midst of spiritual warfare, unfortunately it comes as "flesh and blood" battles so often, instead of recognizing that there are bigger forces in play.

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

So we need to reprove

reprove verb [ trans. ] reprimand or censure someone

and it appears from the scripture that this is in context of the church not the world. The unredeemed world is not going to hear us

1Cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Yet this does not give us license to engage in war against the unbelievers or the darkness within the church on a physical plane. Scripture gives us guidelines, the historic church gives us guidelines (though this has been abused as times) on dealing with darkness within the congregation...our call is to go and preach, go and love, go and forgive, go and feed, go and visit, go and BE the Body of the risen Christ. When abused we turn the other cheek, when angry and vindictive seeking revenge (mea culpa) scripture says:

Rom12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

In recent months I had moved toward the power/force end of things, which is opposite of my mennonite background. But it was shown to me after my angry outbursts of the 777 changes that this is not the way~and I'm drifting back toward the anabaptist, and I believe scriptural & historical, way of viewing conflict. I'll be viewed as too liberal to be conservative and too conservative to be liberal, but the chips have to fall where they will, ya know?

...went long again...


Jim

 

[ContentInHim]

MrJim - I am so sorry but I just messed up your perfect rep (77,777) because of your post above.

 

[MrJim]

MrJim - I am so sorry but I just messed up your perfect rep (77,777) because of your post above.

That was a strange line of sevens there.

 

[ContentInHim]

Yeah - I was getting ready to go outside and check the cloud formations for our savior's feet but .... had to check the next thread.

What I should have done was copied it to my post for posterity.

 

[JoeWill]

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

Those foolhardy enough to try scrumping at night.

 

[GreenMunchkin]

Those foolhardy enough to try scrumping at night.

Heh. Scrumping. Quintessential Zummerzet

 

[ContentInHim]

What on God's really really green earth is scrumping?

 

[MrJim]

What on God's really really green earth is scrumping?

good question, if them brits would jes learn good english

 

[JoeWill]

What on God's really really green earth is scrumping?

Scrump = cider

Scrumping = the act of stealing of fruit from someone else's orchard


Those who attempt to go scrumping at night might have limited success in finding any apples - "the fruitless works of darkness"

 

[MrJim]

again, from another thread but same theme:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freitag
That would be fine if people were actually exposing the works of darkness. However for the most part that "exposing of darkness" involves the repitition of inaccuracies, falsehoods, misassumptions or urban legends

That there are abuses cannot be disputed; it does not mean we decide the system won't work.

This is where grace and mercy are called into play. Because one child had an abusive parent doesn't make parental correction abusive.

Then there will be those that have decided to rebel against the Word, and decide that what scripture says is dark is really light. At that point the one doing the reproving simply steps away in grace and love and walks away. This is often where the conflict is instead escalated. I say X is right, and you say X is wrong. If after discussion we come to no conclusion, and this issue is one of conviction (as opposed to opinion or taste), we will part and journey on our separate ways. I have convictions that I will die over, but I also have a lot of opinions that I'll not bleed for. Take baptism for example~I believe in what is commonly called "believer's baptism", my opinion is that this is the correct doctrinal teaching. But my paedobaptist [infant baptism] friends present a great arguement, and can't honestly say that they are wrong. So it's one of the "agree-to-disagree" sorta things. Then there is the teaching of the deity of Christ. That is a point of which there is no room for compromise...so if after discussion one believes that Christ is not the Son of God, and yet calls himself a Christian, I would at some point have to break fellowship. This may actually take years to happen, because with young/new Christians there will be some time to learn some of the historical teachings. Key to this plays on to whom I'm discussing. I can minister to unbelievers of any stripe for the rest of my life; believers that want to disregard or change the teaching of the scripture/church~generally using the historic creeds as a guideline~will become out of fellowship.

Coming from something of an anabaptist background I can speak to the history of being on the outside looking in. The Roman Catholic and Protestant groups of the Reformation declared the anabaptists to be heretics (prison to exile to execution) because the anabaptists did not "fit" their definition of what a Christian is, and as I said before, instead of simply disfellowshipping and moving on, they escalated the conflict by force. Many fringe groups today will look to those anabaptists as a model, they just need to be sure they read the scripture as honestly as those folks did, but the "honestly" is in the eyes of the beholder, for the RC & Protestants didn't think they were interpreting it correctly either

<<*What is interesting is that while I'm writing this I am up and down the stairs teaching my son Drafting Perspective for his art class. Perspective....hmmmmm sorta fits in here~I had him get as far away from the kitchen table and then put his eyes right up to the edge to grasp perspective~make me wonder what I'm missing*>>

I say all that to say we'll have disagreements, we'll part and go on our journeys in Christ in different ways. I may think incorrectly you are wrong, but if I will simply disagree with love and grace I'll account for my mistake later. I may think correctly that I am correct, yet conduct myself in a most heinous way to defend my position to the point of persecution, then the love has long since gone, and the scripture warns of this:

I Corinthians 13:1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Don't matter how spiritual or educated or faithful or anything, without agape love it's all just nothing, just trash. AGAIN, this isn't the only passage in the scripture, and it doesn't excuse sin, the New Testament must be looked at in its entirety. But this love business~love Christ in God showed to us~is the crux. Otherwise we just have religion wars...

...went long again smarter folks than me (JimfromOhio comes to mind) are far more able to be succinct in writing, I write like I talk, gaffs 'n all

 

[ContentInHim]

And a hearty MrJim!

 

[JoeWill]

All in the context, scripture teaches that we do not fellowship with unrepentant brethren in these cases~not the world of unbelievers in their sins, but with believers. I then cannot fellowship with many that are called Christians that fall into this category, because as new creatures in Christ they are to know better (through Holy Spirit conviction, through teaching, through scripture, through admonition of elders).

So what should our reaction be to the Liberal Forum where there will be born-again Christians who should know better over many moral issues, but perhaps also non-Christians and seekers of the truth, as well as those who are mistaken to think upon themselves as "Christian" because they have received a false gospel?

Should we post our thoughts in that forum or not?

 

[MrJim]

Scrump = cider

Scrumping = the act of stealing of fruit from someone else's orchard


Those who attempt to go scrumping at night might have limited success in finding any apples - "the fruitless works of darkness"

Aah it all makes sense now

 

[MrJim]

So what should our reaction be to the Liberal Forum where there will be born-again Christians who should know better over many moral issues, but perhaps also non-Christians and seekers of the truth, as well as those who are mistaken to think upon themselves as "Christian" because they have received a false gospel?

Should we post our thoughts in that forum or not?

If you see this, I would recommend (and I've done this) simply PM'ing the person, and gently & lovingly invite a discussion on the issue. Landing in the lib forum and trying to "correct" them is what they did to us causing all sorts of problems. One on one is best.

 

[MrJim]

2Cor6:14 Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,18 and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.

This passage often gets tossed out as simply for "marriage" or sometimes "business partners" but it doesn't seem to specify any particular exclusive situation~just the Christian life in general.