And call no man your father...

[God_Owned]

Jesus instructed us in Matthew 23:9 that we should not call any man upon the earth Father. So why do so many Christians call earthly men Father?

I'm not pointing fingers, but I must give a couple of examples to put this into context. Many WOFers call Kenneth Hagin, Dad Hagin, Catholics refer to their priests as Father, Episcopalians also refer to their priest as Father and many Christians refer to their spiritual mentors as Father. In light of Jesus' very straight forward instruction, I don't understand Christians compulsion to call an earthily man their Father, other than possibly their biological Father, although Jesus made no exception for this either.

And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Matthew 23:9

 

[PastorMike]

We need to take this portion of scripture in context... Jesus here was speaking about the religious leaders... he was telling the people about the hypocrisy of the religious leaders of the day... namely the scribes and pharisees (not refering to our earthly fathers but religious leaders... in my opinion)

So Jesus was warning about religious leaders who wanted to sit in Moses seat V2...

V4 they lay heavey burdens on the people...

V5 they love to wear long robes to be seen as spiritual by the people...

V6 they love to take the best seats in the place of worship...

V7-8 They love to be adresses as master taking the place of Christ...

V9 they want to be called father but we have one Father of our spirits even God the Father...

and so the passage continues warning the people not to be decieved by religious leaders who follow this pattern... and in our generation we can see this very thing happening but we need to be alert and aware of what is going on...

 

[God_Owned]

We need to take this portion of scripture in context... Jesus here was speaking about the religious leaders... he was telling the people about the hypocrisy of the religious leaders of the day... namely the scribes and pharisees (not refering to our earthly fathers but religious leaders... in my opinion)

So Jesus was warning about religious leaders who wanted to sit in Moses seat V2...

V4 they lay heavey burdens on the people...

V5 they love to wear long robes to be seen as spiritual by the people...

V6 they love to take the best seats in the place of worship...

V7-8 They love to be adresses as master taking the place of Christ...

V9 they want to be called father but we have one Father of our spirits even God the Father...

and so the passage continues warning the people not to be decieved by religious leaders who follow this pattern... and in our generation we can see this very thing happening but we need to be alert and aware of what is going on...

I'll have to think on what you've said. It just seems more literal to me.

Just out of curiosity, I don't much difference between the religious leaders of JESUS' day and many that we see today. Like the religious leaders of Jesus day, I've run into some Preachers, and yes even those posing as WOF Preachers, who were primarily interested in relieving me of my money.

 

[Preacherchick99]

Isn't it sad how that happens?

And when we refer to Kenneth Hagin as dad Hagin--We mean spiritual father--The Father of our faith The one who taught us what we know

 

[God_Owned]

Isn't it sad how that happens?

And when we refer to Kenneth Hagin as dad Hagin--We mean spiritual father--The Father of our faith The one who taught us what we know

I know why people say that they call Hagin, Dad Hagin. It still does not answer my question. You see, I say that God is my spiritual Father. He uses people like Kenneth Hagin to teach others, but Hagin did not produce the spiritual seed that germinated in me that resulted in my being born again. People plant, water with prayer, show forth God's love, but the seed is of my spiritual Father, which is God himself.

I've always suspected that this is why Jesus said not to call any earthly man Father. God wanted to give his people judges in the Old Testament, but the people wanted to elevate a man over themselves as Kings. People have, ever since the fall of Adam, wanted to elevate men over themselves as Kings, Dictators, heroes etc. Some other pitfalls of the practice of calling a man Father are:

1. Disobeying Jesus' instructions.
2. Giving credit for what God has wrought to a man.
3. Giving man more authority and power in you life than God ever intended. Many cult leaders desire to be referred to as Father.
4. Honoring man as your source instead of God.
5. Allowing man to become our Father confessor, instead of confessing our sins directly to the Father as the Bible instructs.
6. Unfairly putting too much pressure on God's ministers to solve problems for us that God has already solved for us.
7. Accepting a lower status in life than it is God's will for us to have. Why wouldn't I want to see myself as God sees me, which is as a son of the Most high, rather that a son of Hagin or any other man.
8. Those who we elevate over us in our lives tend to become arrogant,

God said in Exodus 20:5, "Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;"

I realize that God was in specific to the false Gods that the people were worshiping, but God applies the same principle to the worship of men in other parts of the Bible. Factually, this is desire to worship man is why the world will ultimately worship the Anti-Christ.

Elevating a man over me is the equivalent of bowing down to him and vise versa. The purpose of bowing down is to demonstrate that you subordinating yourself to another. If I give a man the position of Father in my life, then I've automatically subordinated myself to him as a Father is in authority over his children.

Submitting my mind to be taught by credible spiritual leaders is good, but I will never subordinate my will to another nor will I accept a lesser status than God has appointed me to via the blood of Jesus.

Even though Hagin is now with Jesus, he remains one of my favorite teachers, but I will never call him Father.

 

[KleinerApfel]

Occasionally I meet a brother in Christ who I have no problem calling "Father ....." (Insert their name.)

Different to calling them "Father" alone I think - adding it as a title or prefix to their name in this way is a mark of respect for their authority to teach or care for me.

I don't make a habit of it, since my church background and current church don't use it, but I see nothing wrong with using it in this context when a person is known by this title and is living up to it.

God bless, love Sue

 

[lismore]

And when we refer to Kenneth Hagin as dad Hagin--We mean spiritual father--The Father of our faith The one who taught us what we know

EEK

Thats the Holy Spirit. No one man has it all. The Holy SPirit will give you things pop Hagin doesnt know.

 

[God_Owned]

Isn't it sad how that happens?

And when we refer to Kenneth Hagin as dad Hagin--We mean spiritual father--The Father of our faith The one who taught us what we know

I mean spiritual Father too and in every other since of the word as well, since He is also our Creator. The Word is not Hagin's seed that causes the new birth. It is God's seen that germinates in our hearts until we are birthed as babes into His kingdom. Hagin is a planter and a cultivator, as we all are to be. But my Father's seed didn't originate with Hagin. I can see people referring to people as their mentor, or something similar, but I find it odd that anyone would want to a substitute an inferior surrogate Father-child relationship with Hagin, or any other man, when the Bible says that God is now our Father/Dad/Daddy/Pop.Poppa, etc. Jesus paid the greatest price so that we would be able to call God our Father and that same Jesus instructed us not to call any Earthly man our Father.

We have but one Father and it is God.

 

[Preacherchick99]

Maybe I didn't clarify enough--Now I feel like ya'llz are picking on me >.<

 

[KleinerApfel]

Maybe I didn't clarify enough--Now I feel like ya'llz are picking on me >.<

Aww! Leave her alone! LOL!

 

[chilifrankplate]

Maybe I didn't clarify enough--Now I feel like ya'llz are picking on me >.<

AAh, don't worry about it, it's just another form of legalism. "If you so much as call any man father, you are guilty!" God knows my heart, and me calling Kenneth "dad" Hagin isn't going to change my relationship with my TRUE Father. Neither is recognising someone who's been important to my spiritual growth as a spiritual father. This is just a term of friendship, or endearment, not something that is going to detract from God. After all, it was God who sent all these people into my life anyway, it all goes back to Him no matter what.

 

[amdntstr]

OK. Papa Hagin is a prophet of God, the term is used as a form of respect. That in NO way means that we take His word over what the bible says. He would tell you himself to check and research every word he says (or said) with the bible. his teachings do not superseed the the Word of God. But God has revealed things to Him so that he may teach us the same. But the Word is still the measurment we use to check Papa Hagin's or anybody else's words and teachings.

God the Father is still the ultimate and the only one we bow down and worship.

Now lets look at the verse you pulled up.

Matthew 23:
5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.
6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the
7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.'
8 But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.


OK lets look at what Paul has to say:

1Co 12:28
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

1Co 12:29
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?

Heb 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Heb 13:24
Greet all of your leaders and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.

Paul called people leaders and teachers.

Greek translation of Leader.
Leader in Matthew is translated:
a guide
a master, teacher

Leader in Hebrews is translated as:
to lead
to go before
to be a leader
to rule, command
to have authority over
a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or leaders of the churches
used of any kind of leader, chief, commander
the leader in speech, chief, spokesman
to consider, deem, account, think

1 Cor:
4:14
I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
4:15
For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
4:16
Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.
4:17
For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church

What I see is a difference between the "rabbi's and the religious leaders of the day compared to a leader that is in right standing with God. The leaders who wanted to be called fathers were hypocrites(sp) and did not do what they taught, were as Paul on the other hand taught that which was in line with God and what God has said.

That to me makes all the difference. We are to imitate Paul, but not the religious leaders who are the "do as I say and not as I do" types.

 

[God_Owned]

OK. Papa Hagin is a prophet of God, the term is used as a form of respect. That in NO way means that we take His word over what the bible says. He would tell you himself to check and research every word he says (or said) with the bible. his teachings do not superseed the the Word of God. But God has revealed things to Him so that he may teach us the same. But the Word is still the measurment we use to check Papa Hagin's or anybody else's words and teachings.

God the Father is still the ultimate and the only one we bow down and worship.

Now lets look at the verse you pulled up.

Matthew 23:
5 But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad and enlarge the borders of their garments.
6 They love the best places at feasts, the best seats in the
7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, 'Rabbi, Rabbi.'
8 But you, do not be called 'Rabbi'; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren.
9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ.


OK lets look at what Paul has to say:

1Co 12:28
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

1Co 12:29
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?

Heb 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

Heb 13:24
Greet all of your leaders and all the saints. Those from Italy greet you.

Paul called people leaders and teachers.

Greek translation of Leader.
Leader in Matthew is translated:
a guide
a master, teacher

Leader in Hebrews is translated as:
to lead
to go before
to be a leader
to rule, command
to have authority over
a prince, of regal power, governor, viceroy, chief, leading as respects influence, controlling in counsel, overseers or leaders of the churches
used of any kind of leader, chief, commander
the leader in speech, chief, spokesman
to consider, deem, account, think

1 Cor:
4:14
I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
4:15
For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
4:16
Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.
4:17
For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church

What I see is a difference between the "rabbi's and the religious leaders of the day compared to a leader that is in right standing with God. The leaders who wanted to be called fathers were hypocrites(sp) and did not do what they taught, were as Paul on the other hand taught that which was in line with God and what God has said.

First of all I never said that Hagin's teachings superceded the Word of God. Did Hagin ever instruct his students to call him Dad, Papa or Father or is this just something that the students took upon themselves. You seem to think that I'm attacking Hagin's teachings, which I'm not. What I am doing is questioning the practice of religious subordinates calling those appointed in authority over them as Father, Dad, etc.

This is not a Hagin issue. It applies to all Christians who refer to those appointed in authority over them as Father, Dad, etc.

I don't see how you see that anything that you said voids and absolute directive from Jesus.

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Matthew 23:9

"...no man..." means just that, "...no man..."

What I don't see is where Jesus endorses calling any man upon the Earth Father regardless of how wonderful that person is.

You make a great point in the following vases, but note that father is lower case here, where it is upper case in Matthew 23:9

1 Cor: 4:14-17
14 I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
16 Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.
17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church

So maybe what we have here is Jesus referring to the Father while Paul is referring to a father, much like the Son of God as opposed to a son of God. By the way, I see that you use upper cased when referring to Papa Hagin. I think that the Catholics also use upper case when referring to their priests as father.


I do read the following as God saying that Abraham is our father of faith, but not our Father.

Romans 4:9-11

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

11 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

How say you?

 

[God_Owned]

AAh, don't worry about it, it's just another form of legalism. "If you so much as call any man father, you are guilty!" God knows my heart, and me calling Kenneth "dad" Hagin isn't going to change my relationship with my TRUE Father. Neither is recognising someone who's been important to my spiritual growth as a spiritual father. This is just a term of friendship, or endearment, not something that is going to detract from God. After all, it was God who sent all these people into my life anyway, it all goes back to Him no matter what.

You statement is nonsense. It isn't legalism to make an inquiry where Christens are apparently doing something in direct conflict with a straight forward teaching of Jesus. I find most who accuse people of being legalistic in these types of situations are really just saying that it is to much trouble for me to consider what Jesus is saying because I may have to exercise my brain or change something I'm currently doing, so I just don't want to be bothered. Then they excuse their lack of desire to know the truth about a matter by accusing someone of being legalistic.

Maybe you should get into the Bible to support your point of view before you start hurling false accusation of legalism.

 

[Preacherchick99]

And you, are very boring. I try to read your stuff but I just find myself skipping past it. Remember, when you post stuff and are trying to teach it--You gotta reach the ppl where they are at and not try to make it seem like you're all high and mighty.

I do understand that you are questioning this topic though--But stop trying to make other ppl believe it too

Be blessed!

 

[amdntstr]

First of all I never said that Hagin's teachings superceded the Word of God. Did Hagin ever instruct his students to call him Dad, Papa or Father or is this just something that the students took upon themselves. You seem to think that I'm attacking Hagin's teachings, which I'm not. What I am doing is questioning the practice of religious subordinates calling those appointed in authority over them as Father, Dad, etc.

This is not a Hagin issue. It applies to all Christians who refer to those appointed in authority over them as Father, Dad, etc.

I don't see how you see that anything that you said voids and absolute directive from Jesus.

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Matthew 23:9

"...no man..." means just that, "...no man..."

What I don't see is where Jesus endorses calling any man upon the Earth Father regardless of how wonderful that person is.

You make a great point in the following vases, but note that father is lower case here, where it is upper case in Matthew 23:9

1 Cor: 4:14-17
14 I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
16 Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.
17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church

So maybe what we have here is Jesus referring to the Father while Paul is referring to a father, much like the Son of God as opposed to a son of God. By the way, I see that you use upper cased when referring to Papa Hagin. I think that the Catholics also use upper case when referring to their priests as father.


I do read the following as God saying that Abraham is our father of faith, but not our Father.

Romans 4:9-11

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

11 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

How say you?

Whoa... Take a deep breath. Ok now. I made those comments because of this quote from you:

Some other pitfalls of the practice of calling a man Father are:

1. Disobeying Jesus' instructions.
2. Giving credit for what God has wrought to a man.
3. Giving man more authority and power in you life than God ever intended. Many cult leaders desire to be referred to as Father.
4. Honoring man as your source instead of God.
5. Allowing man to become our Father confessor, instead of confessing our sins directly to the Father as the Bible instructs.
6. Unfairly putting too much pressure on God's ministers to solve problems for us that God has already solved for us.
7. Accepting a lower status in life than it is God's will for us to have. Why wouldn't I want to see myself as God sees me, which is as a son of the Most high, rather that a son of Hagin or any other man.
8. Those who we elevate over us in our lives tend to become arrogant,

I was simply showing that it was not any of these as well as explain why we call him Papa Hagin.

1 Cor: 4:14-17
14 I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.
15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.
16 Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me.
17 For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church

So maybe what we have here is Jesus referring to the Father while Paul is referring to a father, much like the Son of God as opposed to a son of God. By the way, I see that you use upper cased when referring to Papa Hagin. I think that the Catholics also use upper case when referring to their priests as father.

No. Paul said not to have many tutors because you should not have many fathers. He did not say not to call our teacher or tutors father. Also he said "I became your father". The translation here for father is different than the translation that is found in Matthew. In Matthew "father" was the same translation as it was for father God. To me in context of the rest of the scripture means that we should not put anyone above God.

15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

Peace to you!!

 

[God_Owned]

Whoa... Take a deep breath. Ok now. I made those comments because of this quote from you:

Some other pitfalls of the practice of calling a man Father are:



I was simply showing that it was not any of these as well as explain why we call him Papa Hagin.



No. Paul said not to have many tutors because you should not have many fathers. He did not say not to call our teacher or tutors father. Also he said "I became your father". The translation here for father is different than the translation that is found in Matthew. In Matthew "father" was the same translation as it was for father God. To me in context of the rest of the scripture means that we should not put anyone above God.

15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

Peace to you!!

I looked up the definitions of the two fathers in the Bob Jones linked Word Project (Strong's) and did not see a difference. Did I miss something?

Can you post the two definitions that you found here.

Thanks in Advance.

 

[God_Owned]

And you, are very boring. I try to read your stuff but I just find myself skipping past it. Remember, when you post stuff and are trying to teach it--You gotta reach the ppl where they are at and not try to make it seem like you're all high and mighty.

I do understand that you are questioning this topic though--But stop trying to make other ppl believe it too

Be blessed!

Then don't bother reading my stuff. It won't bother me in the least. In addition, you won't have to be bored or insulting to other posters.

This should work out very well for you.

 

[Preacherchick99]

Ever since you got here you've been acting stupid with me--And you're gett'n all crazy on other members trying to be all high and mighty like, "I am Godown!! I r teh 1337 and I know more than what you know so I will come and throw all my scripture at you so I can prove that I am the alpha male, blah blah blah blah"--No one cares

I'm sure this post will get deleted, but I don't care You are just getting on my last nerve >.<

 

[God_Owned]

Ever since you got here you've been acting stupid with me--And you're gett'n all crazy on other members trying to be all high and mighty like, "I am Godown!! I r teh 1337 and I know more than what you know so I will come and throw all my scripture at you so I can prove that I am the alpha male, blah blah blah blah"--No one cares

I'm sure this post will get deleted, but I don't care You are just getting on my last nerve >.<

Aren't you the sweet one. You just have the love of Jesus all over you, don't you? I guess you just felt compelled to try to take me down a notch or two.

In any case, certainly nothing you just said about me is true. You should try to see me as God sees me. You'd like me better that way.


Why don't you let God help you with you insecurities and also teach you how to control your emotion which will help you not to embarrass yourself like this again?


God will also show you the advantages of not judging people falsely.

Child, Jesus is you answer.

Bless your heart.