And Back to Racial Discrimination

[bekkilyn]

What is the difference?

While radical feminists do seek to upturn the male-dominated patriarchy and there is a large lesbian aspect to the movement, the focus is primarily on sex-based equality for (biological) women, and liberal feminism tends to work within the institutions of liberal politics and is gender-based rather than sex-based. So while what you describe sounds more radfem, the various liberal institutions have "cancelled" feminism and feminists that are based on biological women's issues and have instead embraced "gender studies" and "gender issues" and are therefore the ones who are currently the most numerous with the most political influence today. If you wanted to get involved with a radical feminism, you would need to look a lot harder because much of it has gone underground in the current political climate.

 

[RDKirk]

While radical feminists do seek to upturn the male-dominated patriarchy and there is a large lesbian aspect to the movement, the focus is primarily on sex-based equality for (biological) women, and liberal feminism tends to work within the institutions of liberal politics and is gender-based rather than sex-based. So while what you describe sounds more radfem, the various liberal institutions have "cancelled" feminism and feminists that are based on biological women's issues and have instead embraced "gender studies" and "gender issues" and are therefore the ones who are currently the most numerous with the most political influence today. If you wanted to get involved with a radical feminism, you would need to look a lot harder because much of it has gone underground in the current political climate.

All of that is radical. I'd say the gender-based feminists are as much or more radical than the TERFs.

 

[bekkilyn]

All of that is radical. I'd say the gender-based feminists are as much or more radical than the TERFs.

More radical than the radicals.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Mostly radical white feminists--the most numerous with most of the most influential positions in academia, whose teachings over the past 50 years have bled into other radical fringes. They're goal is to upturn the "white male patriarchy," and they seek "intersection" and feign "alliance" with every group that isn't part of the white male patriarchy.

Of course, there are other white women who oppose that, which is why a slim majority of white women voted for Trump.

Really? Are they teaching little boys in school they oppressors who have been historically responsible for innumerable injustices towards women?

 

[RDKirk]

Really? Are they teaching little boys in school they oppressors who have been historically responsible for innumerable injustices towards women?

I think you left some words out of that response.

But it's not Ibram X. Kendi standing in those classrooms. It's not even Ibram X. Kendi teaching all the college courses across the country. The great majority of those teachers are white feminists.

 

[Ana the Ist]

While radical feminists do seek to upturn the male-dominated patriarchy and there is a large lesbian aspect to the movement, the focus is primarily on sex-based equality for (biological) women, and liberal feminism tends to work within the institutions of liberal politics and is gender-based rather than sex-based. So while what you describe sounds more radfem, the various liberal institutions have "cancelled" feminism and feminists that are based on biological women's issues and have instead embraced "gender studies" and "gender issues" and are therefore the ones who are currently the most numerous with the most political influence today. If you wanted to get involved with a radical feminism, you would need to look a lot harder because much of it has gone underground in the current political climate.

All of that is radical. I'd say the gender-based feminists are as much or more radical than the TERFs.

I don't think you're entirely wrong. The "intersectional" aspects of Critical Pedagogy allows for Critical Gender Studies, Queer Studies, Fem Studies, and the like to all fall under the same umbrella.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think you left some words out of that response.

No he's standing in front of teachers telling them what to do. He charges a lot of money and requires you to sign a legal document making it so you can't record him.

But it's not Ibram X. Kendi standing in those classrooms. It's not even Ibram X. Kendi teaching all the college courses across the country. The great majority of those teachers are white feminists.

White feminists are definitely in there.

 

[RDKirk]

No he's standing in front of teachers telling them what to do. He charges a lot of money and requires you to sign a legal document making it so you can't record him.



White feminists are definitely in there.

It is by far mostly white feminists.

 

[bekkilyn]

So why do you think so many white feminists would be teaching those courses as opposed to other people? The systemic aspect?

 

[rturner76]

The weird thing is, I don't know what the left values. I can't tell. Even if I were to ask, I don't think they know. It's ideology...they do as they are told now. They simply obey.

They "simply" want to combat racism. Bad idea?

 

[IWalkAlone]

The Spirit says...

 

[Ana the Ist]

I do too, rturner! My mother brought me up with certain attitudes. In her defence her own upbringing was as a child of the Empire on which the sun never sank (and it was true in her day - and mine). We Brits have quite a burden of preconceived notions!

However flawed, quota systems advanced on the status quo. We have never had anything quite like that, possibly because there were relatively few slaves actually brought into Georgian Britain. What we have is a public awareness of discriminatory practices in our commercial and cultural institutions.

We have begun to deal with the legacy of slavery as an engine of wealth and development - and this is bringing latent racism to the surface in august institutions like Oxford University and our beloved National Trust.

In a couple of hours our national football team will 'take the knee' before the kick-off against Albania in a World Cup game. There will be some boos, no doubt, on the terraces of Wembley Stadium.

Hey, there's that report I was talking about....

Race report author ‘vindicated’ as analysis shows white people do not live longer

Why do you think people get so upset about the mere suggestion that white people face struggles and obstacles too?

A black man came to that conclusion in the UK and there was an extremely quick reaction to it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

They "simply" want to combat racism. Bad idea?

You think that instituting racial discrimination in hiring practices is "combatting racism"?

 

[Ana the Ist]

It is by far mostly white feminists.

I won't subject you to the type of nonsense arguments about "admitting your complicity" and the racist ideas of "racial fragility" that make it difficult to accept your "guilt" in this.

Instead I'll just respect your opinion and tell you that while I disagree, I think we can clearly see who the target is here regardless of where the attack comes from.

 

[RDKirk]

I won't subject you to the type of nonsense arguments about "admitting your complicity" and the racist ideas of "racial fragility" that make it difficult to accept your "guilt" in this.

I don't know what that meant.

 

[RDKirk]

So why do you think so many white feminists would be teaching those courses as opposed to other people? The systemic aspect?

First, demographics. Not only basic demographics (black people are only 13% of the population...we're certainly not covering all the school districts in the country). But also college demographics (mostly white women), and college specialty demographics (humanities and social sciences, by far mostly white women). School teachers...mostly white women.

 

[bekkilyn]

First, demographics. Not only basic demographics (black people are only 13% of the population...we're certainly not covering all the school districts in the country). But also college demographics (mostly white women), and college specialty demographics (humanities and social sciences, by far mostly white women). School teachers...mostly white women.

That makes sense going by demographics in those fields. Why would you think they are specifically feminists though and not just liberals and/or progressives?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don't know what that meant.

Neither did I until it was repeated to me a few hundred times and I finally decided to see what it was saying and where it came from.


This is the best article describing the problem pretty closely to the way I see it. If anything, I think it's a little too generous in assuming the good will of the ideologically driven. There is a blatant maliciousness in the ideology....and a self serving desire for power that is made by demanding ideological conformity...in my opinion.

It's a bit long, but The Atlantic isn't some right wing rag. I hope you read it.

Anti-racist Arguments Are Tearing People Apart

 

[rturner76]

You think that instituting racial discrimination in hiring practices is "combatting racism"?

From my understanding, they didn't say they would not accept or accept anglo-Saxon or they would only accept a certain amount. I thought they were just ensuring that they interviewed a diverse field of candidates. I see nothing wrong with that.

 

[Ana the Ist]

From my understanding, they didn't say they would not accept or accept anglo-Saxon or they would only accept a certain amount. I thought they were just ensuring that they interviewed a diverse field of candidates. I see nothing wrong with that.

I think they probably looked at the law and tried hard to figure out the extent to which they could racially discriminate.

The way it was described is they would give consideration to minority and female applicants first. The executives would also be given a financial incentive for reaching what I can only describe as a racial or gender quota.

That may not be the legal definition of saying "we aren't looking to hire white men unless there's no other option and we discriminate against them heavily"....but it may be that the distinction between that and the hiring process they created is not meaningful.

Straddling that line is what makes this tricky to challenge. They are an investment firm after all. They can afford really good lawyers.

I would simply say that you should consider whether or not you would consider this discrimination against you if it were written to give priority to everyone else, and a financial incentive to hire everyone other than black men. You have personally expressed situations far more ambiguous as racial discrimination to me in other conversations.