ANCIENT CHINESE RECORD ON THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS!

[Pavel Mosko]

Stumbled on this video from an English Seventh Day Adventist speaker pretty interesting. Will have to look into this stuff more.

 

[Margot Lugo]

Stumbled on this video from an English Seventh Day Adventist speaker pretty interesting. Will have to look into this stuff more.

Wow! This is fantastic! I can't wait to share this with my family! Thank you for posting it! God bless you!

 

[timothyu]

Other references to the same

Historical Clues About the Date of Jesus' Birth

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Stumbled on this video from an English Seventh Day Adventist speaker pretty interesting. Will have to look into this stuff more.

That was great. Thanks for sharing.

 

[ewq1938]

There's a lot ore info here:

CHINESE EVIDENCE OF JESUS’ BIRTH, DEATH AND RESURRECTION (from the time of Christ) – Truth Is Life!

"Volume 26: Treatise on Astronomy
Chinese Notes (starts at 2nd to last paragraph)

In English, it says
“In the second month of the second year [of Jian Ping, emperor of that time], the comet was out of Altair for more than 70 days…It is said, ‘Comets appear to signify the old being replaced by the new.’ Altair, the sun, the moon and the five stars are in movement to signify the beginning of a new epoch; The beginning of a new year, a new month and a new day…The appearance of this comet undoubtedly symbolizes change. The extended appearance of this comet indicates that this is of great importance.”
Astronomy Records of the Book of the Han Dynasty

Jian Ping was the emperor of China at this time and historians believe his reign was from about 6 B.C. – 1 B.C. And what person was born in that time period and grew up to change history and bring about a whole new era of history? Of course Jesus. This period fits perfectly with the time that nearly all scholars believe Jesus was born (see more specific info on the date in Note #1 at the end).

The astronomers saw the comet for ~70 days. Interestingly, the Bible tells us that wise men from the east saw a star that to them signified the birth of a Great King and traveled to give Him gifts. In ancient times, it took travelers/caravans ~70 days travel from China to Jerusalem. Could some wise men have come from China? It’s a possibility. But others think some of the wise men were from Babylon/Iraq and were remnants of Jews who were exiled there from the time of Daniel (which would explain why they were so intensely interested in looking for a Jewish Messiah). Interesting, but we don’t know for sure."


"“The primary meaning of Altair, the key supporting pillar of the heavens, is the Perfect Sacrifice.”
Historical records, Vol. 27, Book of Astronomy
二十四史-史記-卷二十七‧天官書第五 - 漢川草廬 (near the middle)
史記 : 書 : 天官書 - 中國哲學書電子化計劃 (line #24 but characters are a little modified)

Who is the only perfect sacrifice who ever lived? Jesus is the Perfect Sacrifice! The Bible tells us:

• “…with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.” 1 Peter 1:19"

 

[JSRG]

I am not sure how accurate these claims are. The video puts the following quote:

"Summer fourth month [of the year], on the Day of Ren Wu, the imperial edict reads Yin and Yang have mistakenly switched and the Sun and the moon were eclipsed. The sins of all the people are now on one man. Pardon is proclaimed to all under heaven."

(frustratingly, the text is hard to read at points--thankfully, he reads it out loud so I could transcribe it)

This appears to be cited to the History of the Latter Han Dynasty, Volume 1... at least that's what it looks like, again the text is horribly presented due to the background image on it making it hard to read.

Unfortunately, it seems there is no full translation of the work, so we have to work with the Chinese. Let's start with the first one, Volume 1. Its text can be found here (divided into two parts):
後漢書/卷1上 - 维基文库，自由的图书馆
後漢書/卷1下 - 维基文库，自由的图书馆

Now, I don't know Chinese, and I know even less of the Classical Chinese that the text is written in (I have heard Classical Chinese is significantly harder than regular Chinese). But automated translations like Google Translate can translate pages, and in the second of the links I found the following which seems to be what is referred to:

On the afternoon of the fourth month of the summer, the edict said: "It is more wrong than yin and yang, and the sun and the moon are thin. The common people have done it, and I will give it to one person to give amnesty to the world. The public, ministers, ministers, state shepherds, virtuous people, and Fangzheng each have one person, and send a public car. I will try it out." < Bus, door name. Where the bus is, because of its name. Han Guanyi said: "The Sima Gate of the Hall of the Head of the Bus, and all the affairs of the world and the conscription will be led by him."

The Chinese text in question is this, for the record:
夏四月壬午，詔曰：「比陰陽錯謬，日月薄食。百姓有過，在予一人，大赦天下。公、卿、司隷、州牧舉賢良、方正各一人，遣詣公車，朕將覽試焉。」〈公車，門名。公車所在，因以名焉。漢官儀曰：「公車掌殿司馬門，天下上事及徵召皆緫領之。」〉

The mention of one person giving amnesty to the world is presumably the "The sins of all the people are now on one man." However, I do not see--in the above automated translation--anything close to "pardon is proclaimed to all under heaven".

Now obviously, it's an automated translation of a language that's not something that probably automates well and is an older form of Chinese to boot, which could explain the discrepancies easily. But I can't help but wonder if the translation he is offering is biased in favor of trying to make it seem more Christian than it actually is.

A similar thing occurs for the next quote offered:

"Eclipse on the day of Gui Hai. Man from Heaven died."

This one is cited to "History of the Latter Han Annals No. 18 Gui Hai". There is also another one (cited to that) where he says the Chinese recorded a rainbow that circled the sun like a halo (unfortunately, the text is basically impossible to read on that one, so I'm just saying what he said) and he claims that it occurred three days later.

This citation is confusing. It says Annals No. 18 but it looks to me like Annals are Volumes 1-10 and then Volume 18 is in the Biographies section. Through a bit of research, it looks to me like this is from Volume 108, which is the eighteenth book of the Records section. That can be found here:
後漢書/卷108 - 维基文库，自由的图书馆

The quote in question appears to be the bolded portion from this:
七年三月癸亥晦，日有蚀之，〈潛潭巴曰：「癸亥日蝕，天人崩。」鄭興曰：「頃年日蝕，每多在晦，〔皆月〕行疾也。君亢急，臣下促迫。」〉在毕五度。

An automated translation renders the bolded as "The sun eclipses the Guihai, and the heavens and the people collapse." This is similar enough we can be pretty sure is what is being referred to, but again we notice a difference. Is this difference the fault of automated translation? Quite possibly. Though a translation of the more fuller context (that is, everything listed above) gives us:

"In the third month of the seventh year, Guihai was dark, and the sun eclipsed it. <Qiantanba said: "The sun eclipses the Guihai, and the heavens and the people collapse." Zheng Xing said: "The solar eclipse in the past year, every time it is dark, [all the moon] travels fast. . The monarch is arrogant and anxious, and the ministers are eager to force."> At the end of the fifth degree."

Again, a highly subpar translation. But it doesn't look like it's in the context of anything that seems related to Christianity.

So where do these come from? I managed to find a discussion at Darkness at Noon » Undivided Looking in the comments that indicates the quotes are taken from a book called "Finding God in China". A preview of it is available on Google Books (see https://www.google.com/books/edition/Finding_God_in_Ancient_China/9ZPu4ndl9EAC) and a search shows this to be there, complete with the exact same citation of "History of the Latter Han, Annals No. 18, Gui Hai".

I don't know if this work is the ultimate source of these quotes or if it took them from somewhere else, but it does show that the guy in the video is just taking these talking points from someplace else.

So ultimately I have to wonder how accurate these quotes being given are. I don't really have anything to compare them to other than low quality automated translations, but I have to wonder if the translations might be skewing things to make them look more Christian-like than they actually are. As for the eclipse being mentioned, in the link I gave, someone gave this comment:

"I studied this supposed Chinese eclipse-- It occurred on May 10th-- the last day of the third month in the year 31ad. The first month of this particular year was: Feb to March, Second month was: March to April, and the third month was April to May, making the last of the third month May 10th-- the Chinese were off a few days and thought that this occurred on the last day-- This also happened to be Gui-Hai-- and the astronomers told the King that royalty is known to die when an eclipse happens on this day. Hence, his fear of this eclipse. I double checked everything with an astronomer. This can not be used to corroborate the darkenss of the crucifixion. It happened on the last day of of a Chinese month-- lunar-- when the moon is gone and a perfect time for a solar eclipse -- and NOT during a full moon."

If this is the case, and admittedly this is all coming from an anonymous commenter on a blog, this could not be the eclipse/darkness of the Crucifixion. Remember it took place the day after the Passover meal, and Passover is on a full moon.

The bottom line is that this would be very interesting if true... but I would want verification from someone who understands Classical Chinese before jumping to the conclusion that these passages are being translated accurately without skew, and also would like better context regarding the work they're actually mentioned in to know if these are being taken out of context or not.

 

[Tolworth John]

Just to add to the confusion, Answers in Genesis had an article on chinese characters that indicated the existance of a creator God worshipped in ancient china.
For those interesd:-https://answersingenesis.org/genesis/the-original-unknown-god-of-china/

 

[timothyu]

but I would want verification from someone who understands Classical Chinese before jumping to the conclusion that these passages are being translated accurately without skew

This be true

 

[Carl Emerson]

For those interested here is a related topic..

The links below are two books about the relationship between classical Chinese characters and the Biblical text in Genesis.

This is a fascinating topic.

https://www.amazon.com/Faith-Our-Fathers-Chan-Thong/dp/7801865065

https://www.amazon.com/Discovery-Genesis-Truths-Chinese-Language/dp/0570037921

 

[Pavel Mosko]

The astronomers saw the comet for ~70 days. Interestingly, the Bible tells us that wise men from the east saw a star that to them signified the birth of a Great King and traveled to give Him gifts. In ancient times, it took travelers/caravans ~70 days travel from China to Jerusalem. Could some wise men have come from China? It’s a possibility. But others think some of the wise men were from Babylon/Iraq and were remnants of Jews who were exiled there from the time of Daniel (which would explain why they were so intensely interested in looking for a Jewish Messiah). Interesting, but we don’t know for sure."

Yeah but this comes up a bit with people in the Assyrian Church of the East, and other folks who have ties with that Church. Since they came from that area and also descended largely from the Diaspora Jews from the Silk and Spice routes.


Not to mention, the Assyrians managed to send missionaries to China at 3 different times, one of which was before the Middle Ages. There actually is an online book that covers this sort of stuff linked below.


East of the Euphrates: Early Christianity in Asia – Religion Online

"John Stewart refers to another tradition current among the Chinese of Chang-an, a tradition referred to also in the Chinese records. According to this tradition, in AD 64, the Chinese emperor Ming-ti, as a result of a dream, sent messengers along a road leading to the west to find out who was the greatest prophet who had arisen in the west. They met two Christian missionaries on the way to the court and returned with them. The missionaries remained there till they died six years later. The only relic of their stay is to be found in a scripture of forty-two sections and a logia of the New Testament. We are not sure of the reliability of this tradition."


(Taken from the top of Chapter 5)

 

[Chesterton]

Stumbled on this video...

Coincidence. I stumbled on the exact same video yesterday too.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Coincidence. I stumbled on the exact same video yesterday too.

On second thought maybe not coincidence, maybe the SDA's are "paying for clicks" as my friend says (paid money for it to get bumped in the algorithm).

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I don't see how the china stuff applies to Jesus as a historical source.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yeah but this comes up a bit with people in the Assyrian Church of the East, and other folks who have ties with that Church. Since they came from that area and also descended largely from the Diaspora Jews from the Silk and Spice routes.


Not to mention, the Assyrians managed to send missionaries to China at 3 different times, one of which was before the Middle Ages. There actually is an online book that covers this sort of stuff linked below.


East of the Euphrates: Early Christianity in Asia – Religion Online

"John Stewart refers to another tradition current among the Chinese of Chang-an, a tradition referred to also in the Chinese records. According to this tradition, in AD 64, the Chinese emperor Ming-ti, as a result of a dream, sent messengers along a road leading to the west to find out who was the greatest prophet who had arisen in the west. They met two Christian missionaries on the way to the court and returned with them. The missionaries remained there till they died six years later. The only relic of their stay is to be found in a scripture of forty-two sections and a logia of the New Testament. We are not sure of the reliability of this tradition."


(Taken from the top of Chapter 5)

Not only did the Church of the East send missionaries there, they had churches at least as far as China, Mongolia and Tibet until the genocide of Tamerlane, which wiped them out everywhere except in Mesopotamia and India. But prior to that, they spanned all of Asia and were the largest church in the known world (the explored regions well known at the time of the collapse of the Roman Empire) in terms of geographical size.

 

[The Liturgist]

There's a lot ore info here:

CHINESE EVIDENCE OF JESUS’ BIRTH, DEATH AND RESURRECTION (from the time of Christ) – Truth Is Life!

"Volume 26: Treatise on Astronomy
Chinese Notes (starts at 2nd to last paragraph)

In English, it says
“In the second month of the second year [of Jian Ping, emperor of that time], the comet was out of Altair for more than 70 days…It is said, ‘Comets appear to signify the old being replaced by the new.’ Altair, the sun, the moon and the five stars are in movement to signify the beginning of a new epoch; The beginning of a new year, a new month and a new day…The appearance of this comet undoubtedly symbolizes change. The extended appearance of this comet indicates that this is of great importance.”
Astronomy Records of the Book of the Han Dynasty

Jian Ping was the emperor of China at this time and historians believe his reign was from about 6 B.C. – 1 B.C. And what person was born in that time period and grew up to change history and bring about a whole new era of history? Of course Jesus. This period fits perfectly with the time that nearly all scholars believe Jesus was born (see more specific info on the date in Note #1 at the end).

The astronomers saw the comet for ~70 days. Interestingly, the Bible tells us that wise men from the east saw a star that to them signified the birth of a Great King and traveled to give Him gifts. In ancient times, it took travelers/caravans ~70 days travel from China to Jerusalem. Could some wise men have come from China? It’s a possibility. But others think some of the wise men were from Babylon/Iraq and were remnants of Jews who were exiled there from the time of Daniel (which would explain why they were so intensely interested in looking for a Jewish Messiah). Interesting, but we don’t know for sure."


"“The primary meaning of Altair, the key supporting pillar of the heavens, is the Perfect Sacrifice.”
Historical records, Vol. 27, Book of Astronomy
二十四史-史記-卷二十七‧天官書第五 - 漢川草廬 (near the middle)
史記 : 書 : 天官書 - 中國哲學書電子化計劃 (line #24 but characters are a little modified)

Who is the only perfect sacrifice who ever lived? Jesus is the Perfect Sacrifice! The Bible tells us:

• “…with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.” 1 Peter 1:19"

There is also the theory that they were Magi, e.g. Mobeds, which is to say priests of the Zoroastrian religion, which closely resembles Christianity and Judaism. Indeed I think it represents some sort of attempt at syncretism between the Hebrew faith, ancient Iranian Paganism, and Hinduism. Much like we see in later syncretic religions which are also related in part to Christianity, for example, the Yazidi religion, which in its present form was organized by a mysterious Sufi sheikh, allegedly, but Yazidism is definitely not Sufi Islam.

I do think it is quite possible however that one of the visitors could have been Chinese, and if this notice is genuine, it provides corroboration for a historically documented miracle concerning the birth of our Lord.

A part of me wonders if the miracle in question was a supernova, which was the basis for a mediocre science fiction novel in the 1960s.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yeah but this comes up a bit with people in the Assyrian Church of the East, and other folks who have ties with that Church. Since they came from that area and also descended largely from the Diaspora Jews from the Silk and Spice routes.


Not to mention, the Assyrians managed to send missionaries to China at 3 different times, one of which was before the Middle Ages. There actually is an online book that covers this sort of stuff linked below.


East of the Euphrates: Early Christianity in Asia – Religion Online

"John Stewart refers to another tradition current among the Chinese of Chang-an, a tradition referred to also in the Chinese records. According to this tradition, in AD 64, the Chinese emperor Ming-ti, as a result of a dream, sent messengers along a road leading to the west to find out who was the greatest prophet who had arisen in the west. They met two Christian missionaries on the way to the court and returned with them. The missionaries remained there till they died six years later. The only relic of their stay is to be found in a scripture of forty-two sections and a logia of the New Testament. We are not sure of the reliability of this tradition."


(Taken from the top of Chapter 5)

Thank you for mentioning the Assyrians! Everyone forgets they even exist, and they have been persecuted so much by the Muslims, and they are very devout Christians.

 

[gao yun]

I am not sure how accurate these claims are. The video puts the following quote:

"Summer fourth month [of the year], on the Day of Ren Wu, the imperial edict reads Yin and Yang have mistakenly switched and the Sun and the moon were eclipsed. The sins of all the people are now on one man. Pardon is proclaimed to all under heaven."

(frustratingly, the text is hard to read at points--thankfully, he reads it out loud so I could transcribe it)

This appears to be cited to the History of the Latter Han Dynasty, Volume 1... at least that's what it looks like, again the text is horribly presented due to the background image on it making it hard to read.

Unfortunately, it seems there is no full translation of the work, so we have to work with the Chinese. Let's start with the first one, Volume 1. Its text can be found here (divided into two parts):
後漢書/卷1上 - 维基文库，自由的图书馆
後漢書/卷1下 - 维基文库，自由的图书馆

Now, I don't know Chinese, and I know even less of the Classical Chinese that the text is written in (I have heard Classical Chinese is significantly harder than regular Chinese). But automated translations like Google Translate can translate pages, and in the second of the links I found the following which seems to be what is referred to:

On the afternoon of the fourth month of the summer, the edict said: "It is more wrong than yin and yang, and the sun and the moon are thin. The common people have done it, and I will give it to one person to give amnesty to the world. The public, ministers, ministers, state shepherds, virtuous people, and Fangzheng each have one person, and send a public car. I will try it out." < Bus, door name. Where the bus is, because of its name. Han Guanyi said: "The Sima Gate of the Hall of the Head of the Bus, and all the affairs of the world and the conscription will be led by him."

The Chinese text in question is this, for the record:
夏四月壬午，詔曰：「比陰陽錯謬，日月薄食。百姓有過，在予一人，大赦天下。公、卿、司隷、州牧舉賢良、方正各一人，遣詣公車，朕將覽試焉。」〈公車，門名。公車所在，因以名焉。漢官儀曰：「公車掌殿司馬門，天下上事及徵召皆緫領之。」〉

The mention of one person giving amnesty to the world is presumably the "The sins of all the people are now on one man." However, I do not see--in the above automated translation--anything close to "pardon is proclaimed to all under heaven".

Now obviously, it's an automated translation of a language that's not something that probably automates well and is an older form of Chinese to boot, which could explain the discrepancies easily. But I can't help but wonder if the translation he is offering is biased in favor of trying to make it seem more Christian than it actually is.

A similar thing occurs for the next quote offered:

"Eclipse on the day of Gui Hai. Man from Heaven died."

This one is cited to "History of the Latter Han Annals No. 18 Gui Hai". There is also another one (cited to that) where he says the Chinese recorded a rainbow that circled the sun like a halo (unfortunately, the text is basically impossible to read on that one, so I'm just saying what he said) and he claims that it occurred three days later.

This citation is confusing. It says Annals No. 18 but it looks to me like Annals are Volumes 1-10 and then Volume 18 is in the Biographies section. Through a bit of research, it looks to me like this is from Volume 108, which is the eighteenth book of the Records section. That can be found here:
後漢書/卷108 - 维基文库，自由的图书馆

The quote in question appears to be the bolded portion from this:
七年三月癸亥晦，日有蚀之，〈潛潭巴曰：「癸亥日蝕，天人崩。」鄭興曰：「頃年日蝕，每多在晦，〔皆月〕行疾也。君亢急，臣下促迫。」〉在毕五度。

An automated translation renders the bolded as "The sun eclipses the Guihai, and the heavens and the people collapse." This is similar enough we can be pretty sure is what is being referred to, but again we notice a difference. Is this difference the fault of automated translation? Quite possibly. Though a translation of the more fuller context (that is, everything listed above) gives us:

"In the third month of the seventh year, Guihai was dark, and the sun eclipsed it. <Qiantanba said: "The sun eclipses the Guihai, and the heavens and the people collapse." Zheng Xing said: "The solar eclipse in the past year, every time it is dark, [all the moon] travels fast. . The monarch is arrogant and anxious, and the ministers are eager to force."> At the end of the fifth degree."

Again, a highly subpar translation. But it doesn't look like it's in the context of anything that seems related to Christianity.

So where do these come from? I managed to find a discussion at Darkness at Noon » Undivided Looking in the comments that indicates the quotes are taken from a book called "Finding God in China". A preview of it is available on Google Books (see https://www.google.com/books/edition/Finding_God_in_Ancient_China/9ZPu4ndl9EAC) and a search shows this to be there, complete with the exact same citation of "History of the Latter Han, Annals No. 18, Gui Hai".

I don't know if this work is the ultimate source of these quotes or if it took them from somewhere else, but it does show that the guy in the video is just taking these talking points from someplace else.

So ultimately I have to wonder how accurate these quotes being given are. I don't really have anything to compare them to other than low quality automated translations, but I have to wonder if the translations might be skewing things to make them look more Christian-like than they actually are. As for the eclipse being mentioned, in the link I gave, someone gave this comment:

"I studied this supposed Chinese eclipse-- It occurred on May 10th-- the last day of the third month in the year 31ad. The first month of this particular year was: Feb to March, Second month was: March to April, and the third month was April to May, making the last of the third month May 10th-- the Chinese were off a few days and thought that this occurred on the last day-- This also happened to be Gui-Hai-- and the astronomers told the King that royalty is known to die when an eclipse happens on this day. Hence, his fear of this eclipse. I double checked everything with an astronomer. This can not be used to corroborate the darkenss of the crucifixion. It happened on the last day of of a Chinese month-- lunar-- when the moon is gone and a perfect time for a solar eclipse -- and NOT during a full moon."

If this is the case, and admittedly this is all coming from an anonymous commenter on a blog, this could not be the eclipse/darkness of the Crucifixion. Remember it took place the day after the Passover meal, and Passover is on a full moon.

The bottom line is that this would be very interesting if true... but I would want verification from someone who understands Classical Chinese before jumping to the conclusion that these passages are being translated accurately without skew, and also would like better context regarding the work they're actually mentioned in to know if these are being taken out of context or not.

詔曰：「比陰陽錯謬，日月薄食。百姓有過，在予一人，大赦天下。

This sentence in ancient Chinese means：Emperor Guangwu of the Han Dynasty said，The position of the stars in the sky is unusual recently.This means that God is dissatisfied with my work. The mistakes of the people are the responsibility of me. So I am going to forgive the people。

 

[The Liturgist]

詔曰：「比陰陽錯謬，日月薄食。百姓有過，在予一人，大赦天下。

This sentence in ancient Chinese means：Emperor Guangwu of the Han Dynasty said，The position of the stars in the sky is unusual recently.This means that God is dissatisfied with my work. The mistakes of the people are the responsibility of me. So I am going to forgive the people。

In using the word God, is it referring to the Jade Emperor, or Heaven, or God in absolute sense the way we use the term in monotheism?