Ancient Baptism For the Dead?

[Ironhold]

It would be very interesting if an orthodox Christian group, i.e. the Coptic Orthodox Church, was performing proxy water baptisms for the dead in the past...even compelling. However we have yet to see evidence that they were. Instead, we see references to Gnostics, those that reject Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God and Savior, groups that reject the Old Testament and the God of Israel, etc.

Now, it must be said that in the Catholic faith, we have a rich history of practices related to the salvation of the dead, including prayers and Masses for the dead. We do believe that the living can "help" the deceased in some way, and we find origin of our practices in those of ancient Judaism. We see this in 2 Maccabees (part of the Catholic/Orthodox Old Testament), where we read:

2 Maccabees 12:43-45
43 He also took up a collection from all his men, totaling about four pounds of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. Judas did this noble thing because he believed in the resurrection of the dead.

44 If he had not believed that the dead would be raised, it would have been foolish and useless to pray for them.

45 In his firm and devout conviction that all of God's faithful people would receive a wonderful reward, Judas made provision for a sin offering to set free from their sin those who had died.

The first link I posted referenced this here passage.

 

[NYCGuy]

To begin with, could you please in the future use quote tags if you intend to split apart responses? The bold-to-Italic shift you used isn't displaying properly on my monitor. Thank you.

**

It does still stand that at least three groups were known to practice it, and the concept at least was known among at least some portion of the Copts. We also have an account that suggests a similar concept was known among the Jews.

In that sense, there is a precedent, something that the OP asserted did not exist.

The OP asserted no such thing. Indeed, it did not assert anything.

Yes, we do see that three groups had some sort of practice related to baptism for the dead, groups that, as I mentioned, varyingly rejected Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God and Savior, rejected the Old Testament and/or the Old Testament God of Israel, etc. Hardly convincing if we'd like to believe that baptism for the dead as practiced in Mormonism is a restoration of an ancient Christian practice.

I still have yet to see that the practice was known in concept in the Coptic Orthodox Church. As I mentioned, the references given (to the Pistis Sophia and the Gospel of Philip) are not to canonical Coptic texts, but to Gnostic works, which the Coptic Orthodox, along with the rest of orthodox and Orthodox Christianity, rejects. Such works are "Coptic" in the sense that they come from Egypt ("Coptic" meaning Egyptian), however they were never held by the Coptic Church as canonical, unless evidence can be provided that they were. So, I don't see how reference to such works demonstrates that the Coptic Church had such a belief. Instead, we see that they had, and still have, a tradition of prayer for the deceased, along with the rest of ancient Christianity.

But from there -

Jeff Lindsay notes a number of non-Mormon Bible scholars who agree that the "clear" reading of the passage refers to vicarious baptism, with some of them admitting that this likely did indicate that individual early groups - even within mainline Christianity - likely did indeed engage in vicarious baptism.

Wonderful. Can you provide evidence from these scholars that demonstrates that there were mainline Christian groups performing vicarious water baptism for the dead? I'm not surprised that there are non-LDS Biblical scholars that think that that is what it is referring to, just like how there are other scholars that don't agree. Such is scholarship.

He also quotes a work which argues that the Shepherd of Hermas, which was at one point considered canonical by different groups, argues for the point as well.

Interesting, thanks. To me, it seems as if the Shepherd is talking about baptisms occurring in the spirit world (i.e. that those purportedly being baptized on behalf of another are being baptized in the spirit world, not on earth). This naturally conflicts with LDS teaching, which is that baptisms must be performed with a body, and cannot be performed in the spirit world. But still interesting.

 

[NYCGuy]

The first link I posted referenced this here passage.

Yes. Catholics regard 2 Maccabees (and 1 Maccabees) as canonical texts, included in our Bibles. We find those specific verses (among others) providing ancient support for the Catholic practice of offering prayers and Masses for the dead. The Jewish and ancient Christian practices of prayer and offerings for the dead are well evidenced, and practiced to this day, in contrast to the obscurity of alleged practices of proxy water baptisms for the dead, supposedly restored practices of the LDS faith. That doesn't even speak of the other ordinances LDS perform by proxy (confirmations, Melchizedek priesthood ordinations, Initiatories, Endowments, and Sealings).

 

[Ran77]

I never claimed that the OP did.

Which is fine, because I also didn't claim that you did. It was just a reminder that the parameters setup in the OP did not mention it.

From this, it seems as if you may not be familiar with the beliefs of the mentioned groups, since it has nothing to do with me being the arbitrator of who is and isn't Christian. Again, as I already quoted as an example, Mandaeism, which rejects Jesus Christ, sure does sound Christian.

I am not familiar with those beliefs. But then again, I don't need to be in order to spot the afore-mentioned behavior.

To me, this is a logical leap. It requires less of a logical leap to believe that Jesus preached to those in Prison, and released those that believed Him. Peter speaks of baptism saving us (those alive), not those in Prison (odd if he was making the connection you're making).

No the odd part would be to ignore that in verse 20 the link between those who are disobedient is made with those who are saved by water. And that the concept is further explored in verse 21 where baptism is specifically mentioned.

Huh? Where does it say that their hope is dependent upon gaining access to water, let alone that this is about the dead?

Just as you can lead a horse to water, but cannot make them drink, I cannot force you to see what is there if you choose not to see it.

They were teaching baptism for the dead in the Old Testament?

Possibly.

I think reading this prophecy in context is much more helpful.

I do to. I'm glad that I did.

But then, this is a distraction from the actual topic of my thread, which is the Christian practice of baptism for the dead. Please do not derail my thread.

Last I checked, the Bible is an accurate source of Christian practices. I'm not sure how anyone can consider my appeal to the Bible for examples of baptism for the dead to be a matter of derailing the thread.


:o

 

[IchoozJC]

It seems you need the Mormon secret decoder ring to see BFTD in the Bible. Obviously, since there is not a single mainstream christian church that sees it there. But the "prophet" spoke and all of a sudden there was Biblical evidence for it.

 

[NYCGuy]

Which is fine, because I also didn't claim that you did. It was just a reminder that the parameters setup in the OP did not mention it.

Obviously. And I already demonstrated what the issue of "orthodox" had to do with my bringing that matter up (specific to the arguments mentioned in an article being discussed), as well as the fact that rejecting Jesus Christ, rejecting the God of Israel, etc fall within the parameter of Christianity, correct? We might as well include Islam and other faiths in the Christian umbrella.

I am not familiar with those beliefs. But then again, I don't need to be in order to spot the afore-mentioned behavior.

Lack of familiarity with those beliefs is the reason why our attempted argument is fallacious.

No the odd part would be to ignore that in verse 20 the link between those who are disobedient is made with those who are saved by water. And that the concept is further explored in verse 21 where baptism is specifically mentioned.

Sorry, none of this has to do with baptism for the dead, let alone those in prison being baptized by Christ. Baptism is mentioned in verse 21 in reference to "us", i.e., the living (or those in audience if we're limiting it). It says absolutely nothing about baptism for the dead, that is your eisegesis. Verse 20 is talking about Noah's ark, which certainly is a type of baptism event (and the event surrounding Noah's ark is specifically tied to our baptism in verse 21), however the verse makes no implication that the disobedient are now saved by water.

Just as you can lead a horse to water, but cannot make them drink, I cannot force you to see what is there if you choose not to see it.

Such statements are not welcome in my thread. Please exit if you are not going to provide substantiation for your claimed interpretations.

Possibly.

But no evidence of that.

I do to. I'm glad that I did.

The provided context demonstrates your reading of the proof text is erroneous.

Last I checked, the Bible is an accurate source of Christian practices. I'm not sure how anyone can consider my appeal to the Bible for examples of baptism for the dead to be a matter of derailing the thread.


:o

Once again, please stop misrepresenting me. The point of this thread is to discuss the Christian practice of baptism for the dead. "what, if any, is the ancient evidence that Christians performed proxy water baptisms for the dead, presumably sharing in the LDS interpretation of that verse?" You referencing Zechariah, while interesting (and your interpretation erroneous), is not on topic, and is derailing my thread.

 

[NYCGuy]

What we have seen so far in this thread is that there is no evidence that the ancient Christians practice a proxy water baptism for the dead. So far, we have seen the citation of groups such as the Mandaeans, Marcionism, and Gnosticism. These groups varyingly reject Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God and Savior of all (Mandaeans specifically just reject Jesus Christ), reject the God of the Old Testament, the Biblical God of Israel (believing Him to be an evil entity), etc. An article was given that claimed that baptism for the dead was practiced in some orthodox Christian circles, yet provides no actual evidence of that. When referencing the Coptic Church, the author referred to Gnostic works such as the Pistis Sophia and Gospel of Philip, works which the Coptic Church never accepted, and therefore are certainly not valid examples of the Coptic Church practicing proxy water baptisms. The author also referenced the pronouncements of ancient local Councils of the Church, which said that Eucharist and baptism must not be given to the dead. Unfortunately, this is not a reference to a proxy water baptism, but that some anciently were giving Eucharist and baptism to dead bodies. Finally, one poster provides odd interpretations of the Bible, even a reference to the Old Testament (when this thread is about evidence of Christians performing proxy water baptisms), none of which actually speak of Christians proxy baptizing the dead.

Very interesting.

 

[Ironhold]

I'm trying to remember some other papers I read on the matter, but I've been doing double-shifts lately and so I'm not getting a whole lot of sleep.

At the least, though, we do have it established that the concept was not foreign to Christianity as a whole, as various non-orthodox groups were known to have similar practices, a similar Jewish practice was known to the Catholics, and members of one orthodox Christian group are suspected of having participated in it.

 

[Ran77]

Sorry, none of this has to do with baptism for the dead . . .

So says you.

. . . let alone those in prison being baptized by Christ.

This is something that you are introducing into the discussion. I have not indicated that Christ baptized those in prison.

Baptism is mentioned in verse 21 in reference to "us", i.e., the living (or those in audience if we're limiting it). It says absolutely nothing about baptism for the dead, that is your eisegesis. Verse 20 is talking about Noah's ark, which certainly is a type of baptism event (and the event surrounding Noah's ark is specifically tied to our baptism in verse 21), however the verse makes no implication that the disobedient are now saved by water.

So says you.

Such statements are not welcome in my thread. Please exit if you are not going to provide substantiation for your claimed interpretations.

Ahem . . . I have already provided substantiation for my claims. They are in the form of the verses that we are currently discussing. Just because you reject what I have posted in regards to them does not make them insubstative. That's because you are not the final arbitator for what is correct.

But no evidence of that.

No - it's evidence. You have just rejected it. That doesn't magically change it from not being evidence. Without desiring to be snarky in any way, I suggest that it might be helpful to familiarize yourself with what constitutes evidence and what does not.

The provided context demonstrates your reading of the proof text is erroneous.

So you claim. I reject you as the final arbitrator of what is true and what is not. All it does is demonstrate that my reading of the text differs from yours.

Once again, please stop misrepresenting me. The point of this thread is to discuss the Christian practice of baptism for the dead. "what, if any, is the ancient evidence that Christians performed proxy water baptisms for the dead, presumably sharing in the LDS interpretation of that verse?" You referencing Zechariah, while interesting (and your interpretation erroneous), is not on topic, and is derailing my thread.

Is the Bible - in total - a document that represents the Christian belief system? Are you suggesting that true Christian belief rejects those concepts discussed in the Old Testament? And even if you ignore the fact that all of the Bible is accepted as a doctrinal source for Christianity, the section I posted from Zechariah is discussing the Christ to come. I'm not sure how anyone could dismiss an Old Testament, forward thinking, comment about Christ as being irrelevant to Christian beliefs.

 

[Ran77]

What we have seen so far in this thread is that there is no evidence that the ancient Christians practice a proxy water baptism for the dead. So far, we have seen the citation of groups such as the Mandaeans, Marcionism, and Gnosticism. These groups varyingly reject Jesus Christ as the divine Son of God and Savior of all (Mandaeans specifically just reject Jesus Christ), reject the God of the Old Testament, the Biblical God of Israel (believing Him to be an evil entity), etc. An article was given that claimed that baptism for the dead was practiced in some orthodox Christian circles, yet provides no actual evidence of that. When referencing the Coptic Church, the author referred to Gnostic works such as the Pistis Sophia and Gospel of Philip, works which the Coptic Church never accepted, and therefore are certainly not valid examples of the Coptic Church practicing proxy water baptisms. The author also referenced the pronouncements of ancient local Councils of the Church, which said that Eucharist and baptism must not be given to the dead. Unfortunately, this is not a reference to a proxy water baptism, but that some anciently were giving Eucharist and baptism to dead bodies. Finally, one poster provides odd interpretations of the Bible, even a reference to the Old Testament (when this thread is about evidence of Christians performing proxy water baptisms), none of which actually speak of Christians proxy baptizing the dead.

Very interesting.

Not so interesting. There is nothing new with our critics dismissing, out of hand, anything that is presented and then attempting to make an authoratative claim that we have failed to prove our point. That is just business as usual.


:o

 

[IchoozJC]

 

[Ran77]

Sorry, none of this has to do with baptism for the dead, let alone those in prison being baptized by Christ. Baptism is mentioned in verse 21 in reference to "us", i.e., the living (or those in audience if we're limiting it). It says absolutely nothing about baptism for the dead, that is your eisegesis. Verse 20 is talking about Noah's ark, which certainly is a type of baptism event (and the event surrounding Noah's ark is specifically tied to our baptism in verse 21), however the verse makes no implication that the disobedient are now saved by water.

1 Peter 3: 18-21

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I have taken the liberty of placing verses 19 and 20 together. They are seperated by a semi-colon, which is used to connect interdependent statements. In other words, statements that are meant to work together to make a point.

As such, Christ preached unto the spirits in prison - note the semicolon - which were disobedient during a time when the longsuffering of God waited. Few souls were saved by water.

Verse 21 then mentions a like figure. That is drawing a comparison between the situation in the aforementioned verses and the fact that baptism doth also now save us.

The focus for all of these verses is baptism. There is no leap of logic to understand that. One only needs to read the verses, in context, to see that they are connected in subject matter.

Why is Christ preaching to the dead in a series of verses that are focused on baptism?

How are the eight, mentioned in verse 20, saved by water?



:o

 

[Ran77]

Zechariah 9: 11-12

11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.

12 Turn you to the strong hold, ye prisoners of hope: even to day do I declare that I will render double unto thee;


What is the pit that is being discussed here?

What is the significance of this pit having no water?

What is the blood of the coventant that is mentioned and how does it free men from the pit?

Who are these prisoners of hope?


I have already asserted that this refers to baptism - possibly baptism of the dead. If I am wrong then what is the correct understanding of these verses?

 

[IchoozJC]

Jeremiah 2:13
For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.


Its really quite simple to understand when you know the biblical Jesus.

Here's another one that most likely only a regenerate person can understand.

Luke 4
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

 

[NYCGuy]

1 Peter 3: 18-21

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

I have taken the liberty of placing verses 19 and 20 together. They are seperated by a semi-colon, which is used to connect interdependent statements. In other words, statements that are meant to work together to make a point.

As such, Christ preached unto the spirits in prison - note the semicolon - which were disobedient during a time when the longsuffering of God waited. Few souls were saved by water.

Verse 21 then mentions a like figure. That is drawing a comparison between the situation in the aforementioned verses and the fact that baptism doth also now save us.

The focus for all of these verses is baptism. There is no leap of logic to understand that. One only needs to read the verses, in context, to see that they are connected in subject matter.

Why is Christ preaching to the dead in a series of verses that are focused on baptism?

How are the eight, mentioned in verse 20, saved by water?



:o

Thank you for your interpretation.

Unfortunately, I don't see anything here about baptism for the dead. I think these verses make much more sense when we read the entirety of the chapter, and it is always helpful to go to other translations as well, just in case the KJV is too...archaic, as it can be at times (I'm not saying it is with these verses).

Firstly, Peter is speaking to living people in these verses. Before verse 18, we see that he is telling the people that even if they suffer for righteousness' sake, they will be blessed, and that it is better to suffer for good than to suffer for doing evil. We then go to verse 18, where we are told that Christ suffered for our sins, so that He might bring us to God. He also went to the spirits in prison (verse 19). Who are these spirits in prison (at least those being referred to in this case)? They are those that did not obey during the time of Noah's ark (verse 20). Now, we must remember the story of Noah's ark. In that story, 8 people survived the flood (Noah, his wife, his 3 sons, and their wives, totaling 8). They were saved by, or through the water, and they are the 8 being referenced in verse 20. Verse 21 then goes on to find similarity between Noah's ark and baptism. Where in Noah's ark 8 people were saved by/through water, so now we are saved by/through the waters of baptism. The "us" referenced in verse 21 is referring to those being spoken to, not those in prison.

I think it's pretty clear from reading these verses in context that this is the correct, and standard, interpretation of them. The "eight" are the eight that were saved in Noah's ark, and they are not the one's being talked about as being in prison. Those in prison are those that were disobedient during the time of Noah's ark.

Catholics in the United States use the New American Bible (at least in liturgical settings), and I will quote from it below, which I think makes the reality of what the verses are talking about even more clear. I'll start at verse 13:


"13Now who is going to harm you if you are enthusiastic for what is good?

14But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them,

15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope,f

16but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.

17For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that be the will of God, than for doing evil.
18For Christ also suffered* for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.g


19In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,*


20who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.h


21This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God* for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,i


22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.j



The commentary from the NAB for these verses also supports my interpretation:

* [3:13–22] This exposition, centering on 1 Pt 3:17, runs as follows: by his suffering and death Christ the righteous one saved the unrighteous (1 Pt 3:18); by his resurrection he received new life in the spirit, which he communicates to believers through the baptismal bath that cleanses their consciences from sin. As Noah’s family was saved through water, so Christians are saved through the waters of baptism (1 Pt 3:19–22). Hence they need not share the fear of sinners; they should rather rejoice in suffering because of their hope in Christ. Thus their innocence disappoints their accusers (1 Pt 3:13–16; cf. Mt 10:28; Rom 8:35–39).


We find further support of this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1219 The Church has seen in Noah's ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, for by it "a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water":

The waters of the great flood
you made a sign of the waters of Baptism,
that make an end of sin and a new beginning of goodness.

1094 It is on this harmony of the two Testaments that the Paschal catechesis of the Lord is built, and then, that of the Apostles and the Fathers of the Church. This catechesis unveils what lay hidden under the letter of the Old Testament: the mystery of Christ. It is called "typological" because it reveals the newness of Christ on the basis of the "figures" (types) which announce him in the deeds, words, and symbols of the first covenant. By this re-reading in the Spirit of Truth, starting from Christ, the figures are unveiled. Thus the flood and Noah's ark prefigured salvation by Baptism, as did the cloud and the crossing of the Red Sea. Water from the rock was the figure of the spiritual gifts of Christ, and manna in the desert prefigured the Eucharist, "the true bread from heaven."


Finally, I will quote from the ESV, which I believe is a translation popular amongst Evangelicals, and is a literal translation as well (I believe the KJV is also a literal translation):




18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Hope that helps.

 

[Ran77]

Thank you for your interpretation.

Unfortunately, I don't see anything here about baptism for the dead. I think these verses make much more sense when we read the entirety of the chapter, and it is always helpful to go to other translations as well, just in case the KJV is too...archaic, as it can be at times (I'm not saying it is with these verses).

Firstly, Peter is speaking to living people in these verses. Before verse 18, we see that he is telling the people that even if they suffer for righteousness' sake, they will be blessed, and that it is better to suffer for good than to suffer for doing evil. We then go to verse 18, where we are told that Christ suffered for our sins, so that He might bring us to God. He also went to the spirits in prison (verse 19). Who are these spirits in prison (at least those being referred to in this case)? They are those that did not obey during the time of Noah's ark (verse 20). Now, we must remember the story of Noah's ark. In that story, 8 people survived the flood (Noah, his wife, his 3 sons, and their wives, totaling 8). They were saved by, or through the water, and they are the 8 being referenced in verse 20. Verse 21 then goes on to find similarity between Noah's ark and baptism. Where in Noah's ark 8 people were saved by/through water, so now we are saved by/through the waters of baptism. The "us" referenced in verse 21 is referring to those being spoken to, not those in prison.

I think it's pretty clear from reading these verses in context that this is the correct, and standard, interpretation of them. The "eight" are the eight that were saved in Noah's ark, and they are not the one's being talked about as being in prison. Those in prison are those that were disobedient during the time of Noah's ark.

Catholics in the United States use the New American Bible (at least in liturgical settings), and I will quote from it below, which I think makes the reality of what the verses are talking about even more clear. I'll start at verse 13:


"13Now who is going to harm you if you are enthusiastic for what is good?

14But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them,

15but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope,f

16but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame.

17For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that be the will of God, than for doing evil.
18For Christ also suffered* for sins once, the righteous for the sake of the unrighteous, that he might lead you to God. Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.g


19In it he also went to preach to the spirits in prison,*


20who had once been disobedient while God patiently waited in the days of Noah during the building of the ark, in which a few persons, eight in all, were saved through water.h


21This prefigured baptism, which saves you now. It is not a removal of dirt from the body but an appeal to God* for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,i


22who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him.j



The commentary from the NAB for these verses also supports my interpretation:

* [3:13–22] This exposition, centering on 1 Pt 3:17, runs as follows: by his suffering and death Christ the righteous one saved the unrighteous (1 Pt 3:18); by his resurrection he received new life in the spirit, which he communicates to believers through the baptismal bath that cleanses their consciences from sin. As Noah’s family was saved through water, so Christians are saved through the waters of baptism (1 Pt 3:19–22). Hence they need not share the fear of sinners; they should rather rejoice in suffering because of their hope in Christ. Thus their innocence disappoints their accusers (1 Pt 3:13–16; cf. Mt 10:28; Rom 8:35–39).


We find further support of this in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1219 The Church has seen in Noah's ark a prefiguring of salvation by Baptism, for by it "a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water":

The waters of the great flood
you made a sign of the waters of Baptism,
that make an end of sin and a new beginning of goodness.

1094 It is on this harmony of the two Testaments that the Paschal catechesis of the Lord is built, and then, that of the Apostles and the Fathers of the Church. This catechesis unveils what lay hidden under the letter of the Old Testament: the mystery of Christ. It is called "typological" because it reveals the newness of Christ on the basis of the "figures" (types) which announce him in the deeds, words, and symbols of the first covenant. By this re-reading in the Spirit of Truth, starting from Christ, the figures are unveiled. Thus the flood and Noah's ark prefigured salvation by Baptism, as did the cloud and the crossing of the Red Sea. Water from the rock was the figure of the spiritual gifts of Christ, and manna in the desert prefigured the Eucharist, "the true bread from heaven."


Finally, I will quote from the ESV, which I believe is a translation popular amongst Evangelicals, and is a literal translation as well (I believe the KJV is also a literal translation):




18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, 19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.

Hope that helps.

That gives me a much better understanding from where you are coming from on this topic. Thank you.

 

[peebly63]

the baptism for the dead, which is a huge and difficult subject, seems to be based on a single scripture, it seems to go against much other scripture about making a decision to accept Jesus before you die, so to me it makes no sense at all..

 

[woodpecker]

The Bible plainly teaches that baptism shows a likeness with Christ's burial and resurrection

Since baptism is a picture of death and resurrection, Paul asks the church at Corinth why they continued to practice immersion, If there was no resurrection of the dead, as some were teaching, why were they baptized in a picture of resurrection?

The key to the verse is the middle clause, "if the dead rise not at all." By denying the resurrection, the Corinthians had removed the glorious figure of baptism. They had reduced it to a mere picture of death, without any hope of a future resurrection.

 

[Ironhold]

the baptism for the dead, which is a huge and difficult subject, seems to be based on a single scripture, it seems to go against much other scripture about making a decision to accept Jesus before you die, so to me it makes no sense at all..

Those groups who practiced it anciently IMHO appear to have done so on behalf of people who had expressed faith in life but who had died before they could be baptized.

LDS theology holds that people who did not get to hear the gospel in life get the chance to hear it after they passed on; in this case, the baptism is done for them so that it's taken care of if they then choose to accept it.

 

[IchoozJC]

If you can be baptized for someone, why not just go all the way and accept the gospel for them? Either way it contradicts the bibles admonishment to ...


",work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."
~Philippians 2:12