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Adam knew God, and presumably could've drawn even closer to Him rather than farther away, as he did. To know God is more than head-knowledge but to "see" Him, to know Him personally, to have union/fellowship with Him. We'r enot born with that knewledge here and yet we were made for it. This is to begin now, in this life, but be fully completed and consummated only in the next.what do you mean by without direct knowledge of God?
again, it depends on how you define it. you are absolutely correct that it can be understood to be the same if understood properly, but it also could be erroneously understood. we gotta keep that in mind when talking to the Christian West.True, but being that when they translated both Mogila's confession and Dositheus' in the Greek its ancestral sin and in Latin it's original sin. The canons of Carthage I think follow the same. So, canonically, they are the same thing.
right, but you implied you need rebirth to get that knowledge of God, unless I missed something.Adam knew God, and presumably could've drawn even closer to Him rather than farther away, as he did. To know God is more than head-knowledge but to "see" Him, to know Him personally, to have union/fellowship with Him. We'r enot born with that knewledge here and yet we were made for it. This is to begin now, in this life, but be fully completed and consummated only in the next.
"For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 1 Cor 13:12
Rebirth involves coming to know God-the two go hand in hand. As we come to know Him we come to believe in, hope in, and love Him. That is rebirth.right, but you implied you need rebirth to get that knowledge of God, unless I missed something.
but what is rebirth in Catholicism? isn’t it baptism?Rebirth involves coming to know God-the two go hand in hand. As we come to know Him we come to believe in, hope in, and love Him. That is rebirth.
Baptism marks, signifies, and accomplishes rebirth as long as we have faith, which prompts and is intrinsic to baptism. Baptism, in fact, is known as the "sacrament of faith". From there, having been washed and cleansed, died and risen, we're made new creations, raised to "newness of life".but what is rebirth in Catholicism? isn’t it baptism?
can you know God directly with an unaccomplished rebirth?Baptism marks, signifies, and accomplishes rebirth as long as we have faith, which prompts and is intrinsic to baptism. Baptism, in fact, is known as the "sacrament of faith". From there, having been washed and cleansed, died and risen, we're made new creations, raised to "newness of life".
Point is, the words refer to the same thing. People interpret the same thing differently, but it is wrongly confused that ancestral sin and original sin refer to two different things, which is not true.again, it depends on how you define it. you are absolutely correct that it can be understood to be the same if understood properly, but it also could be erroneously understood. we gotta keep that in mind when talking to the Christian West.
again, it depends on what you mean. you can’t divorce a word from its meaning. there are plenty of apologists that would disagree with this.Point is, the words refer to the same thing. People interpret the same thing differently, but it is wrongly confused that ancestral sin and original sin refer to two different things, which is not true.
not a good example. NYC is 4 other Burroughs. Manhattan is one island within NYC. those two are also not the same thing depending on who you ask (like my wife who is from Long Island).It's be like me asking "New York City" versus "Manhattan."
It is a good example. We have 2 conciliar documents that literally use the words interchangeably. As for the NYC example, think of it this way. We have people in Manhattan that call it NYC, but we also know that Manhattan is a very specific place. So, Ancestral Sin and Original Sin can be the same thing in one context, but in another Original Sin may carry with it "more burroughs" and a broader western definition we do not accept.again, it depends on what you mean. you can’t divorce a word from its meaning. there are plenty of apologists that would disagree with this.
not a good example. NYC is 4 other Burroughs. Manhattan is one island within NYC. those two are also not the same thing depending on who you ask (like my wife who is from Long Island).
right, that was my point. it can be interpreted differently depending on who is speaking. if that was your point, I agree.It is a good example. We have 2 conciliar documents that literally use the words interchangeably. As for the NYC example, think of it this way. We have people in Manhattan that call it NYC, but we also know that Manhattan is a very specific place. So, Ancestral Sin and Original Sin can be the same thing in one context, but in another Original Sin may carry with it "more burroughs" and a broader western definition we do not accept.
Thank you again @ArmyMattNow, for my 3rd, and hopefully final question, if the difference is the guilt, what difference does the guilt make?
it’s somewhere when he speaks of the need for baptism. I do remember that. and it’s in earlier guys like Tertullian and Ambrosiaster.But I have never seen anyone point to the place where Augustine or the West affirms such an idea.
Yes, my guess is that it is inferential. For example, "Augustine says that unbaptized infants who die will go to Hell; only the guilty go to Hell; but infants have no personal guilt; therefore Augustine must hold to Original guilt, inherited from Adam." Now that's not a bad argument and it jibes with other things Augustine says, but it's also different from a direct admission on Augustine's part. (This is just conjecture - I haven't looked into it enough to know for sure.)it’s somewhere when he speaks of the need for baptism. I do remember that. and it’s in earlier guys like Tertullian and Ambrosiaster.
no, I mean I remember him actually writing it. not simply by inference.Yes, my guess is that it is inferential. For example, "Augustine says that unbaptized infants who die will go to Hell; only the guilty go to Hell; but infants have no personal guilt; therefore Augustine must hold to Original guilt, inherited from Adam." Now that's not a bad argument and it jibes with other things Augustine says, but it's also different from a direct admission on Augustine's part. (This is just conjecture - I haven't looked into it enough to know for sure.)
Thanks for the clarification, Father. I am also interested in this.it depends on what you mean. if you mean original sin in that Adam and Eve were the first two humans to sin, then you are fine (which is why it’s also called the ancestral sin).
but the error in much of the Western view is that you are born guilty of the sin of Adam, not just subject to the effects of that first sin. so, the issue for us is more of original guilt.
yep, same here when I come across his writings again.Okay, fair enough. I will have to keep an eye out for this.
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