Anathema to Sabbath-keepers - Council of Laodicea

[LittleLambofJesus]

Should I obey God, or the council Laodicea?

Greetings and welcome to CF

Which one would you choose

http://www.christianforums.com/t4698160/
The CC, EO, OO, ACE, etc. splits--how reliable are councils?

 

[ricker]

Justification has never come through the law, it has always been by grace.

Paul doesn't say we are no longer under law, he states we are not justifies by law as a principle.
Rom 6:14 For your sin shall not lord it over you, for you are not under Law, but under grace.

I don't remember reading Paul saying " we are not justified by law as a principle". If he meant it that way, he would have said it that way.

Gal. 3
25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Gal. 5
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea (ca. A.D. 360) explicitly condemns the veneration of the Sabbath and enjoins working on such a day in order to show a special respect for Sunday:
Source: CHURCH FATHERS: Synod of Laodicea (4th Century)

Which churches believe this today?
Roman Catholic?
Eastern Orthodox?
Any others?

What does anathema mean in this canon?

Bump....interesting thread!

Gala 1:8 But also if-ever we or a messenger out of heaven should be well-messaging to ye beside which we well-messagizing to ye, anathema/anaqema <331> let him be.
9 As we have declared before and at present again I am saying if any is well-messagizing beside which ye beside got, anathema let him be.

I found this interesting and wonder if this article is correct on the Biblical definition of "anathema".......

History of God's Holy Bible and the so-called Jews

*snip*

The Hebrew word translated "utterly destroy" is 'cherem.' Both the people and the land of Canaan were 'cherem,' meaning FORCIBLY dedicated to God as withdrawn from His service and worship wherein He was not glorified, and by the hands of another, devoted to Him for destruction whereby He will be glorified.

The equivalent Greek word is "anathema." In the case of the Canaanites who were natural Serpent's seed, cherem is the consecration to God of His enemies (Hebrew "hated ones" - Isaiah 34:1-8; Malachi 1:2-3; Romans 9:13), and their belongings by means of fire and sword.

 

[Stryder06]

Nevermind

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Nevermind

I found this greek word used in Reve 22:3 interesting.
It is a from of the word "anathema" and is used only this 1 time in the NT.

I didn't really see it as
anathema until I parsed this word, which turns out to be 2 prefix words joined to the root word #5087. Thoughts?

Reve 22:3 and every anathema/kat-ana-qema <2652> not shall be still.
And the throne of the God/YHWH and of the Lambkin in Her shall be
And His bond-servants shall be offering divine-service to Him.

Strong's Number G2652 matches the Greek &#954;&#945;&#964;&#8049;&#952;&#949;&#956;&#945; (katathema), which occurs 1 time in 1 verse in the Greek concordance of the KJV

2652. katanathema kat-an-ath'-em-ah from 2596 (intensive) and 331; an imprecation:--curse.
2596. kata kat-ah' a primary particle; (prepositionally) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case (genitive, dative or accusative) with which it is joined):--
331. anathema an-ath'-em-ah from 394; a (religious) ban or (concretely) excommunicated (thing or person):--accused, anathema, curse, X great.
303. ana an-ah' a primary preposition and adverb; properly, up;
394. anatithemai an-at-ith'-em-ahee from 303 and the middle voice of 5087; to set forth (for oneself), i.e propound:--communicate, declare.
5087. tithemi tith'-ay-mee, a prolonged form of a primary theo theh'-o (which is used only as alternate in certain tenses) to place (in the widest application, literally and figuratively; properly, in a passive or horizontal posture, and thus different from 2476, which properly denotes an upright and active position, while 2749 is properly reflexive and utterly prostrate):--+ advise, appoint, bow, commit, conceive, give, X kneel down, lay (aside, down, up), make, ordain, purpose, put, set (forth), settle, sink down.

 

[boswd]

Ok lets just put this to bed.

"I am going to hell because I worship on Sunday"

there are you SDA's and other Sabbath holders happy?

 

[Frogster]

Nevermind

Come on bro..we all like to talk about this..if you abandom ship..the forum will get boring..

I enjoy your posts.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ok lets just put this to bed.

"I am going to hell because I worship on Sunday"

there are you SDA's and other Sabbath holders happy?

So would you agree with the "anathema" being applied to the sabbatarian SDAs [and Messianics]?

Btw, why would Jesus mention the Sabbath in conjunction with the Olivet Discourse in Matt 24

Matt 24:19 "Woe yet to those in belly having and to those suckling in those the days!
20 Be ye praying yet that no may be becoming the flight of ye of winter neither a Sabbath/sabbatw <4521>"

 

[RibI]

Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea (ca. A.D. 360) explicitly condemns the veneration of the Sabbath and enjoins working on such a day in order to show a special disrespect for God and His ways. (sic)

.

 

[RibI]

So Messianics]?

Btw, why would Jesus mention the Sabbath in conjunction with the Olivet Discourse in Matt 24

Because it will still be in effect and His people will still be observing it.

 

[Norbert L]

Ok lets just put this to bed.

"I am going to hell because I worship on Sunday"

there are you SDA's and other Sabbath holders happy?

I think it would be correct to say most Sabbath keepers in general don't believe in eternal torment in a burning hell. They basically teach soul-sleep and annihilation instead and a much smaller number also teach that God is not saving all of mankind now. That will happen at a later date in another resurrection, where for the first time eyes and ears will be opened to the truth of the gospel and not the Sunday keeping counterfeit.

There are a variety of doctrines within SDA's, Messianics and the very small number of CoG's, all with their differences as well, perhaps much like the greater populated Sunday keeping churches.

So would you agree with the "anathema" being applied to the sabbatarian SDAs [and Messianics]?

Here's the thing, to paraphrase an expression, it could be shown the door of anathema can swing both ways. That it is just as possible to make a case about Sunday keeping as being anathema by Sabbath keepers, as can Sabbath keeping by Sunday keepers. It could be said that Sunday observance and Sabbath observance can be mutually anathema towards each other!


However I imagine the action of anathema is something that is more readily applied and practiced within a person's own specific community. To one or more of its' own members who start spouting off a differrent doctrines.

Although I am of the opinion, given today's ecunemical and political pressures, the word anathema doesn't seem to have enough relevance to mean anything substantial to many church goers. Much like seeing boswd's remarks which is unfamiliar with the knowledge that the Sabbath keeping communities as a whole do not believe in the doctrine of hell. There is a disconnect.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

I just watched a program I had DVR'd about the Journals of the Inquisition. It was about the Spanish Inquisition which was against only the Conversos - or those Jews who were forced by economics or relationship to "convert" to Catholicism. During the inquisition they were often "outted" as still holding to Judaic ways and tortured and murdered. Interesting - not a far cry from the cries of "judaizer" in the 4th century or indeed today.

Does it not bother anybody that the Council of Laodicea might be what the Messiah referred to in Revelation? In the meantime, many celebrate the Sabbath on the Sabbath - at least until it's understood that God changed the day!

Jews were not forced or asked to convert, actually. When the Christians recaptured Spain from the Muslims, they wanted all the invaders (Muslims) and outsiders (Jews) to leave. Most did, but many remained. Whether one thinks this is their right is another issue. Rather than leaving, many Muslims and Jews claimed to be Christians, but were not.

Contrary to popular myth, the Spanish Inquistion did not coerce or torture people to get them to profess the Christian faith- quite the opposite. They wanted them to admit they weren't. Today, we live in a religiously plural society and we applaud ourselves for it. Back then, Christianity was defending itself from Islamic forces that continued to move forward. When Spain was recaptured, they decided they did not want the former enemy (Muslims) to remain there, nor third parties (Jews) whose loyalty was in question.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

That's nice because these don't fit in too well today:
Canon 15
No others shall sing in the Church, save only the canonical singers, who go up into the ambo and sing from a book.

Canon 20
It is not right for a deacon to sit in the presence of a presbyter, unless he be bidden by the presbyter to sit down. Likewise the deacons shall have worship of the subdeacons and all the [inferior] clergy.

Canon 39
It is not lawful to feast together with the heathen, and to be partakers of their godlessness.

Canon 52
Marriages and birthday feasts are not to be celebrated in Lent.

Canon 53
Christians, when they attend weddings, must not join in wanton dances, but modestly dine or breakfast, as is becoming to Christians.

I read the first not as condemning group singing of hymns but a focus on an individual person who might come and sing in front of everyone, the choir in contrast is not being focused on and thus distracting from worship. That may be not what they were talking about. I attend a traditional (Latin Mass) Catholic parish so there are not hymns within the Mass as in the common practice of the modern Catholic Mass or most Protestant services. However, there is a closing hymn right after Mass has ended. The role of hymns in the Catholic Mass has been debated for centuries, not only in modern times. Indeed, at the time of Trent, it was becoming popular to include hymns in the vernacular (e.g. English, German, etc).

Second point, I don't see what is objectionable.

Third point, definitely still applicable. Don't go out partying, it is often a near occasion of sin.

Fourth point, regarding marriages and birthdays in Lent. As far as the Catholic and Anglican Churches go, I know marriages are not celebrated during Lent. After Mass at my Anglican church, we would have a blessing for couples with an anniversary or people with a birthday. I remember one couple decided to get married during Lent because he was going off to war. Of course, they couldn't get married in the church so they got married in a civil ceremony and then had it blessed by the church later. Translating a birthday to Sunday, which is not part of Lent, would seem to be the best solution. I'm trying to think of what we've done in the past...

Fifth point, definitely still applicable.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

But the same council has other canons that mention sabbath:

Canon 51

The nativities of Martyrs are not to be celebrated in Lent, but commemorations of the holy Martyrs are to be made on the Sabbaths and Lord's days.

i.e. they are translated to Sunday. Lent does not include the Sundays, that's how it's 40 days. At least certain Sundays, such as Easter (Pascha) Sunday, and during Bright Week after Pascha (Eastern Tradition), it is even forbidden to Fast. The only fast which is kept on Sundays is the Eucharistic Fast, that is fasting before Mass (originally since midnight, then commuted to three hours and now to only one hour).

One popular saint's feast day which is often during Lent is St. Patrick. For those in Ireland, it is a feast of the first class, which means that you do not need to fast (that includes fasting for Friday, if it is on a Friday). For the rest of the world, however, it is a third class feast so St. Patrick's Day celebrations should properly be celebrated on Sunday. I don't know how many people follow that, however. If St. Patrick's Day falls during Holy Week, it wouldn't be celebrated on Easter Sunday, of course, so it's moved to the Monday after Easter.

 

[Albion]

Which churches believe this today?
Roman Catholic?
Eastern Orthodox?
Any others?

The question of the OP would have been better asked as "which churches do NOT...."

It's asking a lot for us to list 30,000 (or whatever it is) different churches.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The question of the OP would have been better asked as "which churches do NOT...."

It's asking a lot for us to list 30,000 (or whatever it is) different churches.

 

[JamesAH]

Oh wonderful another law thread

Why not start a sub forum call it lawology.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Oh wonderful another law thread

Why not start a sub forum call it lawology.

I don't think I would make it thru Law School

Luke 11:52 "Woe to ye the Lawyers/nomikoiV <3544>,
that ye take away the Key of the Knowledge, yeselves not enter and of the ones entering ye hinder/forbid'

 

[JamesAH]

Oh wonderful another law thread

Why not start a sub forum call it lawology.

Shut up

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by JamesAH Oh wonderful another law thread

Why not start a sub forum call it lawology.

Shut up

Thataboy!