Anabaptist History

[ZiSunka]

The first Swiss Anabaptist beleaved in that kind of Holieness and perfection.

Where did you get this information?

 

[brother daniel]

Where did you get this information?

Guided by the Holy Ghost to thehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptist

And books read while living with the Mennonite, Wampler family in Richmond Virginia

Peter Chelcicky, 15th century Bohemian Reformer, taught most of the beliefs considered integral to Anabaptist theology. Medieval antecedents may include the Brethren of the Common Life, the Hussites, and some forms of monasticism. The Waldensians also represent a faith similar to the Anabaptists.
In the following points Anabaptists resembled the medieval dissenters:

1. Some followed Menno Simons in teaching that Jesus did not take the flesh from his mother, but either brought his body from heaven or had one made for him by the Word. Some even said that he passed through his mother, as water through a pipe, into the world. In pictures and sculptures of the 15th century and earlier, we often find represented this idea, originated by Marcion in the 2nd century. The Anabaptists were accused of denying the Incarnation of Christ: a charge that Menno Simons repeatedly rejected.
2. They condemned oaths, and also the reference of disputes between believers to law-courts.
3. The believer must not bear arms or offer forcible resistance to wrongdoers, nor wield the sword. No Christian has the jus gladii.
4. Civil government (i.e. "Caesar") belongs to the world. The believer, who belongs to God's kingdom, must not fill any office, nor hold any rank under government, which is to be passively obeyed.
5. Sinners or unfaithful ones are to be excommunicated, and excluded from the sacraments and from intercourse with believers unless they repent, according to 1 Corinthians 6:1-11 and Matt.18:15 seq. But no force is to be used towards them.

Some sects calling themselves Spirituales or Perfecti also held that the baptized cannot sin, a very ancient tenet.
They seem to have preserved among them the primitive manual called the Teachings of the Apostles, for Bishop Longland in England condemned an Anabaptist for repeating one of its maxims "that alms should not be given before they did sweat in a man's hand." This was between 1518 and 1521.

." Most of the Anti-Trinitarian Anabaptists were modalistic monarchians and baptized in the shorter formula of the name of Jesus Christ. They also spoke in ecstatic languages and prophecies known as "speaking in tongues." Holiness was a very important doctrine to them.

At his trial, Servetus was condemned on two counts, for spreading and preaching Nontrinitarianism and anti-paedobaptism (anti-infant baptism).[7] Of paedobaptism Michael Servetus had said, "It is an invention of the devil, an infernal falsity for the destruction of all Christianity"[8] Whatever the cause of them, be it irritation or mistreatment, his statements that common Christian traditions were "of the devil" severely harmed his ability to make allies. Nevertheless, Sebastian Castellio denounced his execution and became a harsh critic of Calvin due to the whole affair.

I pray this will enhence your study

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[ZiSunka]

You do realize the Wikipedia is created and editted by common people like us who don't have to have any real knowledge on a subject or to support their claims with real research or citations, right?

I have found the Wiki has errors on many subjects, not only the tricky areas of religion and faith. One biography I read claimed that the person, a woman, had landed on the moon with the Apollo 20 crew. In truth, no woman has walked on the moon and there was no Apollo 20. It was cancelled from the schedule before any crew assignments were made, and no women were even on the list of potential choices.

The editors of the wiki just can't keep up with the rapidly expanding data base, so many errors go unchallenged and unchanged. The bigger it grows, the less valuable it is.

Although it is a handy place to begin studying something, I would never never use it as my sole source of info. It's not like a real encyclopedia where thousands of contibutors meet thousands of fact checkers and thousands of preview readers who all constantly check for errors and omissions. The wiki is a noble experiment, but not a serious tool for research.

 

[brother daniel]

You do realize the Wikipedia is created and editted by common people like us who don't have to have any real knowledge on a subject or to support their claims with real research or citations, right?

Dont you have any real knowledge?

I have found the Wiki has errors on many subjects, not only the tricky areas of religion and faith. One biography I read claimed that the person, a woman, had landed on the moon with the Apollo 20 crew. In truth, no woman has walked on the moon and there was no Apollo 20. It was cancelled from the schedule before any crew assignments were made, and no women were even on the list of potential choices.

The editors of the wiki just can't keep up with the rapidly expanding data base, so many errors go unchallenged and unchanged. The bigger it grows, the less valuable it is.

Thats your opinion

Although it is a handy place to begin studying something, I would never never use it as my sole source of info. It's not like a real encyclopedia where thousands of contibutors meet thousands of fact checkers and thousands of preview readers who all constantly check for errors and omissions. The wiki is a noble experiment, but not a serious tool for research.

The whole internet is a great well of data hidden among the dross. You must know how to dig and what to look for.

Rich or poor, educated or uneducated, common people is the only kind there is.

Jesus our lord is one of us common people.

I have been serving God and studing this subjects for ove 30 years. My information comes from many university libraries and rare books rooms.The Wikipedia is addressed and continualy updated by many more editors than any Encyclopedia.

I dont get my information from Encyclopedias, but they like the Wikipedia have given me many clues.

When I find something of real interest I use e books from Oxford or Cambridge as the most direct remote link to primary resources.You seem to be attached to your denomination as an authority on Christian and Anibaptist history. thats a common fault many have. I study its writings as well as others and measure them against the words of Jesus.

As a result of this exchange I am digging deepr into
Michael Servetus

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Servetus was born in Villanueva de Sijena, Huesca, Spain, in 1511 (probably on September 29, his patron saint's day), although no specific record exists. Some sources give an earlier date based on Servetus' own occasional claim of being born in 1509. His paternal ancestors came from the hamlet of Serveto, in the Aragonian Pyrenees, which gave the family their surname. The maternal line descended from Jewish Conversos (Spanish or Portuguese Jews who converted to Christianity) of the Monzón area. In 1524, his father Antonio Servet (alias Revés, i.e. "Reverse"), who was a notary at the royal monastery of Sijena nearby, sent young Michael to college, probably at the University of Zaragoza or Lérida. Servetus had two brothers: one who became a notary like their father, and another who was a Catholic priest. Servetus was very gifted in languages and studied Latin, Greek and Hebrew. At the age of fifteen, Servetus entered the service of a Franciscan friar by the name of Juan de Quintana, an Erasmian, and read the entire Bible in its original languages from the manuscripts that were available at that time. He later attended Toulouse University in 1526 where he studied law. There he became suspect of participating in secret meetings and activities of Protestant students.

But you can be sure that if I had been alive in Switzerlad in the 1500s I would have been slain as an anabaptist with Servetus opinions and the doctrine of all things common.

Common People? Realy? Is there any higher rank in the body of Christ than brethren?

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[ZiSunka]

My goodness Brother Daniel, you are certainly set in your ways. You can't trust very much of what you read on the internet.

But to say anything else would be arguing, so I'll just leave you on this subject now.

 

[MrJim]

Brother Daniel,

She is correct about Wikipedia. Anything found there needs to be researched further to ensure accuracy. She's right, it's a handy starting point, just don't let it be your final authority...

 

[brother daniel]

My goodness Brother Daniel, you are certainly set in your ways. You can't trust very much of what you read on the internet.

But to say anything else would be arguing, so I'll just leave you on this subject now.

I trust no one or no thing but Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost he has given us. But I can love and forgive those I do not trust.

The internet is as faulty as faded parchments and those who scribe and edit them, but it gives all equal platform.
Without the internet we would have never been able to have this exchange. I give internet links because I know most have not had the leasure for much reading.

Yes I am very set in my ways but I am old enough to learn.

There is only one authority I bow to and that is Jesus Christ, My Lord and GOD OUR FATHER.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[Danfrey]

An interesting side note on the wikipedia. The son of my former boss is attending a well respected private college in Pennsylvania. We had a discussion about the wikipedia in which he told me that his professors would accept information from wikipedia because it is peer reviewed, but would not accept information from Encylopedias because they lack peer review. I would agree that with any statement of fact that it is important to verify the primary source. This is were the bibliography section comes in handy.

I remember reading about glossalia among some of the early Anabaptists in a book titled Anabaptist Spirituality.

 

[ZiSunka]

An interesting side note on the wikipedia. The son of my former boss is attending a well respected private college in Pennsylvania. We had a discussion about the wikipedia in which he told me that his professors would accept information from wikipedia because it is peer reviewed, but would not accept information from Encylopedias because they lack peer review. I would agree that with any statement of fact that it is important to verify the primary source. This is were the bibliography section comes in handy.

Most universities won't accept either encyclopedias or wikipedias as sources on research papers.

When I went to Bible school a couple years back, they specifically prohibited use of general knowledge encyclos and all wikis as sources, but they allowed scholarly encyclos, such as Wickliffe Encyclopedia of the Bible or Vine's, as long as that was not the only source cited for that passage.

Encyclos and wikis are too full of misinformation, even with peer review, or outdated information, to be useful.

Heck, the wiki entry for the human tongue still says that the tongue is divided up into different "taste zones" and that claim was discredited 50 years ago. It still claims that "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" is correct, and that was discredited 20 years ago.

There are more things I could cite that are incorrect on the wiki, but you get my point.

 

[MrJim]

You mean my tongue doesn't have a salty section and sour and sweet and all that?? I am so behind the times...

"...ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny"...now you're talking like arunma...

 

[Danfrey]

My point is that we cannot discredit the whole thing because parts of it contain misinformation. It does a much better job of providing sources for information contained in it than most of the garbage that tries to pass as factual information on theology websites. At the same time, it is not a primary source and shouldn't be considered one. As was stated earlier, it is great starting point.

 

[ZiSunka]

I'll agree to that.

Anything you read in a wiki needs to be confirmed by several other sources.

 

[brother daniel]

I'll agree to that.

Anything you read in a wiki needs to be confirmed by several other sources.

I agree
PDF]
The Paraclete Statutes. Institutions Nostrae. Introduction ...

[SIZE=-1]File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat
Melchior Hoffman. Social Unrest and Apocalyptic Visions in the. Age of Reformation. By ... Reformation (1979) is now available in English translation. This ...
jts.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/39/2/670-a.pdf - Similar pages[/SIZE]

http://jts.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/citation/39/2/670-a

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[UBERROGO]

Two books by nonanabaptists that are exceptions would be:

The Anabaptist Story by Estep
The Reformers and Their Stepchildren by Verduin

Also anything from Scroll Publishing is good, the teaching CD's are excellent and a bargain

Menno, what was your take on the book called The Reformers and thier Step Children?

 

[MrJim]

Menno, what was your take on the book called The Reformers and thier Step Children?

Been a while since I read it but found it to be a fascinating read. If I recall the author took nicknames (and not nice ones either) given to anabaptists and examined why they were called that particular name.

It's not going to be a nice treatment of Lutherans/Calvinists/RCs because of the nature of history in this period, but on the other hand Leonard Verduin was a graduate of Calvin Theological Seminary so it's not like some mennonite guy wrote it

 

[brother daniel]

I agree
PDF]
The Paraclete Statutes. Institutions Nostrae. Introduction ...

[SIZE=-1]File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Melchior Hoffman. Social Unrest and Apocalyptic Visions in the. Age of Reformation. By ... Reformation (1979) is now available in English translation. This ...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]jts.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/39/2/670-a.pdf - Similar pages[/SIZE]

http://jts.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/citation/39/2/670-a

With love in Christ
brother daniel

Here a little Anabaptist history


Melchiorites is a term used for the followers of Melchior Hoffman (modernized in German as Hoffmann), the Reformer who carried the gospel to Baltic areas such as Estonia and Livonia, to Emden in Friesland, and to Amsterdam. Hoffman was an individualist who did not unite with the Swiss Brethren, and they in turn repudiated him. Nevertheless he did unite with a fringe group of Anabaptists in Strasbourg in 1530. For a time he was a Lutheran, but Luther ultimately repudiated him. In the 1530s he traveled about a great deal. He held to such Swiss Brethren doctrines as believer's baptism, nonresistance, the rejection of oaths, earnest discipleship to Christ, and separation of church and state. He wrote numerous books, mostly on eschatology. He made much of baptism as a covenant (see 1 Pet. 3:21 in the Luther Bible), and his followers were often called Brethren of the Covenant or "Covenanters."
In addition to the usual Anabaptist doctrines Hoffman was obsessed with eschatology, reveling in the anticipated apocalyptic violence against the wicked after Christ's return, and he was naively drawn to "special revelations" through dreams and visions. He also held an eccentric view of the incarnation whereby Mary was understood to be merely a channel through which the "heavenly flesh of Christ made its entrance to the earth." In response to a special revelation through a Melchiorite he hastened back to Strasbourg in 1533, was arrested, and jailed, in the expectation that in six months Christ would return.

However, Hoffman lay in prison for ten long years before dying in 1543. His Reformation in the Low Countries slowly matured into two wings: (1) The Peace Wing led by Jan Volkerts Trypmaker (martyred in 1531) and Jacob van Campen (martyred in 1535). Later leaders in this Peace Wing in Friesland were Obbe Philips, his brother Dirk Philips, and from 1536 Menno Simons. (2) The apocalyptic and revolutionary Melchiorites were led by the unstable Jan Matthys, who set up a theocracy in Munster, Germany, and died violently in 1534, and by the unscrupulous "King" Jan van Leyden, who was executed after the 1534 - 35 Munster "kingdom." Violent Munsterite "ultra - Melchiorism" was kept alive briefly by Jan van Batenburg (executed 1538) and by David Joris, who fled to Basel in 1544 under a false name and successfully posed for the rest of his days as a Zwinglian.
J C Wenger
(Elwell Evangelical Dictionary) Bibliography
Mennonite Encyclopedia, II, III.
http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/melchior.htm

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[WayneinMaine]

It's not going to be a nice treatment of Lutherans/Calvinists/RCs because of the nature of history in this period, but on the other hand Leonard Verduin was a graduate of Calvin Theological Seminary so it's not like some mennonite guy wrote it

Verduin was a professor emeritus at Calvin. He was quite at odds with the school in his sympathetic treatement of the Anabaptists. They put up with him becasue of his seniority (he died at age 98 in 1997).

 

[MrJim]

Verduin was a professor emeritus at Calvin. He was quite at odds with the school in his sympathetic treatement of the Anabaptists. They put up with him becasue of his seniority (he died at age 98 in 1997).

Hi WayneinMaine, I know you from MD, welcome to our little corner of the world.

"Mr Jim"

 

[WayneinMaine]

Greetings Mr. Jim.