Anabaptist History

[UBERROGO]

Anyone have a link to a good history of the anabaptists?

 

[Danfrey]

It is difficult to find a good history of the Anabaptists online. Your best bet is to order a book from a Mennonite publisher. Christian Light Publishing has a website that you find through google. One piece of advice that I would like to add is avoid anything written by authors that are not Anabaptist. They do a wonderful job of distorting the truth.

You may find some interesting information at one of the two sites listed below.

Bibleviews.com
anabaptists.org

 

[UBERROGO]

Thanks!

 

[RickH]

Another good source that I enjoyed was a movie called "The Radicals". You will probably have to special order it through a Christian bookstore though.
Blessings,
Rick

 

[ZiSunka]

The Martyrs' Mirror has always been one of my favorites.

 

[MrJim]

It is difficult to find a good history of the Anabaptists online. Your best bet is to order a book from a Mennonite publisher. Christian Light Publishing has a website that you find through google. One piece of advice that I would like to add is avoid anything written by authors that are not Anabaptist. They do a wonderful job of distorting the truth.

You may find some interesting information at one of the two sites listed below.

Bibleviews.com
anabaptists.org

Two books by nonanabaptists that are exceptions would be:

The Anabaptist Story by Estep
The Reformers and Their Stepchildren by Verduin

Also anything from Scroll Publishing is good, the teaching CD's are excellent and a bargain

 

[UBERROGO]

Two books by nonanabaptists that are exceptions would be:

The Anabaptist Story by Estep
The Reformers and Their Stepchildren by Verduin

Also anything from Scroll Publishing is good, the teaching CD's are excellent and a bargain

I have read part of that second one. I stopped when the author presented evidence (a quote of some sort) to some idea he had in latin (which I dont know). I had other problems with it, it is VERY biased for the reformers but I can take it with a grain of salt. Still as a Lutheran I could still see how badly the author was biased and it turned me off. Although it did present some interesting terminology.

 

[brother daniel]

I have read part of that second one. I stopped when the author presented evidence (a quote of some sort) to some idea he had in latin (which I dont know). I had other problems with it, it is VERY biased for the reformers but I can take it with a grain of salt. Still as a Lutheran I could still see how badly the author was biased and it turned me off. Although it did present some interesting terminology.

Anyone reading Christian history will discover the faults of their favorite denomination if they are objective and view all the points of view.

The Luthrans, and Calvinist reformers were as ruthless as the Roman Catholics in killing off the pacificist Ani-baptist, men woman and children.

From my own position as a neo ani-baptist, the present day Menonites have become as secular as all the rest and do not have the spirit of their forfathers. They do not kill with swords or guns, but they still kill the spirit ,with academic studies and cares of this world, leading to secular humanism.

At the same time I say that, I must say I have found them to be kind and that is rare among present day Christians. In fact thats why I come to this forum. there is less vain disputing than I find on other forums.

With love in Christ
brother danie.

 

[JM]

The Reformers and Their Stepchildren reveal the one thing Roman Catholicism and Protestantism have in common [without doubt], the marriage of Church and State.

 

[ZiSunka]

My goodness JM! I haven't seen you around forever!

What have you been up to?

 

[UBERROGO]

Anyone reading Christian history will discover the faults of their favorite denomination if they are objective and view all the points of view.

The Luthrans, and Calvinist reformers were as ruthless as the Roman Catholics in killing off the pacificist Ani-baptist, men woman and children.

From my own position as a neo ani-baptist, the present day Menonites have become as secular as all the rest and do not have the spirit of their forfathers. They do not kill with swords or guns, but they still kill the spirit ,with academic studies and cares of this world, leading to secular humanism.

At the same time I say that, I must say I have found them to be kind and that is rare among present day Christians. In fact thats why I come to this forum. there is less vain disputing than I find on other forums.

With love in Christ
brother danie.

Are anibaptist and penticostal the same?

 

[brother daniel]

Are anibaptist and penticostal the same?

The historic Waldensians and the Anibaptist brethren of Switzerland were movements emphesizing gifts of the Holy spirit. The Moravians a branch of that same movement also placed an emphesis on receaving the Holy spirit. John Wesley from whom the Methodist Revival sprang, receaved the Baptism of the Holy ghost as a result of meeting the Moravians when he was on a missionary trip. The Methodist denomination as it became popular and wealthy ceased that focus.
What we call Penticostal today is a recreation of those same early empulses.

From the Holyness revival of Azuza street in Los Angeles sprang what today is called Penticostal, Chrismatic, and Spirit filled as church builders have attempted to put the Holy Spirit in a box that would be politicly correct.

Itis called Penticostal because of the identefiction with the day of Penticost in the Book of Acts.

I have been speaking and singing in tongues since the day I was baptised by emersion in a Sacramento creek in 1969. But tounges is not the emphesis, its boldness to live and preach the word, in season and out.

I consider myself neo Anibaptist because like those first Swiss brethren I beleave in adult baptism, non restistance and the brethren having all things common as was preached by Jesus and his Apostles.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[ZiSunka]

Very few anabaptists speak in tongues or do other distinctively "modern pentocostal" activities, though.

Most anabaptist sects preach and publish against speaking in tongues. Daniel is quite unique in identifying with both denominations.

 

[Danfrey]

There are a few seekers, converts, etc that would identify somewhat with both denominations. I have another older friend that would identify with both the Penticostals and the Hutterites. I have found that most of the Mennonites I know and have come in contact with would not preach against speaking in tongues, but would have a different understanding of the gift than that of the Penticostals. I have only met a few that abosolutely deny that the gift of tongues ceased.

There are definate similarities in theology. The Holiness groups of the Penticostal circles would have much in common with Mennonites. They believe that faith equates to both believe and fruit (aka Arminian) One of the big differences, is there are many Penticostals who believe you do not have the Holy Ghost unless you speak in tongues. I have never met a Mennonite that believes the same.

 

[ZiSunka]

Holiness followers also believe that you can get to the point of having so much faith in God that you stop sinning. Mennonites would never agree with that.

Pentacostals believe that speaking in "heavenly language" which is what they consider "tongues" is more powerful than praying or worshiping in human language. Few Mennonites would agree with that.

Mennonites would say that speaking in tongues is a rare gift given to missionaries in foreign lands where the language is unknown to the speaker. For instance, I once knew a missionary in a remote region of the old Soviet lands, who came into a town where none of the people spoke Russian, French or German, which were the only languages the missionary knew besides English. She had gone there by the calling of the Holy Spirit so she knew she had to share the Good News, so she stood on the steps to the civic building and started to speak in English, figuring there might be someone there that knew a little.

A little crowd gathered to listen to her, and she thought they were probably wondering why this crazy woman was standing in the middle of town shouting unintelligible words at them.

After she was done, she called upon people to come forward if they wanted to know more about Christ. She didn't think anyone would because she was pretty sure no one had a clue what she was saying. But about half the group came forward.

To her surprise, every one of them spoke English! She remarked that she was very surprised they all knew English, and they said, "English! We don't speak a word of English! But your Tajik is perfect! Where did you learn to speak it so fluently?"

THAT'S speaking in tongues.

 

[Danfrey]

The doctrine of Christian Perfection is one that has eluded me. I am not sure where I fall on this teaching. I do believe that there are a variety of views on what it means. John Wesley and Charles Finney both spoke on the doctrine. I believe your statement on what the Holiness people believe on it may be an oversimplification. That aside, I agree that there are few if any Mennonites that would hold to a view of Christian Perfection.

On the speaking in tongues. Most Mennonites I have met would agree that tongues is a known language for the sole purpose of communication with others. I am not sure where I fall on this one personally. Coming from a Penticostal background, I have to recognize that I have certain biases that come from years of listening to others tell what the Bible is teaching. I do believe there may be teaching in scripture that allows for a private prayer language, but I would not be willing to argue the point as I have not spent much time studying the subject.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is the one who gives the gifts to whom he will and we are not in control of them. This would be different from many of the teachings I have been exposed to.

Thanks for the input

 

[ZiSunka]

I believe your statement on what the Holiness people believe on it may be an oversimplification.

I used to go to a church that was full of former Holiness folks and the subject was discussed many times. It's not an oversimplification. They believe that if you are truly saved, you will get to a point where you no longer commit any sins. They believe people who continue to commit sins, even inadvertently, are showing proof that they aren't really saved. I can't remember what verses from the Bible they use to justify this doctrine.

 

[brother daniel]

The doctrine of Christian Perfection is one that has eluded me. I am not sure where I fall on this teaching. I do believe that there are a variety of views on what it means. John Wesley and Charles Finney both spoke on the doctrine. I believe your statement on what the Holiness people believe on it may be an oversimplification. That aside, I agree that there are few if any Mennonites that would hold to a view of Christian Perfection.

Jesus has commanded us to be perfect.[/quote]

Mat 5:48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

How do we accomplish that?

Mat 5:44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

On the speaking in tongues. Most Mennonites I have met would agree that tongues is a known language for the sole purpose of communication with others. I am not sure where I fall on this one personally. Coming from a Penticostal background, I have to recognize that I have certain biases that come from years of listening to others tell what the Bible is teaching. I do believe there may be teaching in scripture that allows for a private prayer language, but I would not be willing to argue the point as I have not spent much time studying the subject.

Speaking in unknown tongues should not be a doctronal issue of faith in Jesus Christ. To make it so is to enter into satanic contentions.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is the one who gives the gifts to whom he will and we are not in control of them. This would be different from many of the teachings I have been exposed to.

Thanks for the input

I used to go to a church that was full of former Holiness folks and the subject was discussed many times. It's not an oversimplification. They believe that if you are truly saved, you will get to a point where you no longer commit any sins. They believe people who continue to commit sins, even inadvertently, are showing proof that they aren't really saved. I can't remember what verses from the Bible they use to justify this doctrine.

We err here when we discuss denominational issues.

We each of us and every denomination is judged by the words and spirit of Jesus Christ.

Jesus taught perfection and he taught how to walk it off in a perfect way. He has also given us his Ghost and power to do it, therefore we are without honest excuse when we knowely sin.
And how can you sin if you dont know?
When we know we have sinned , we must face it and confess our fault and cease from it even if to do so kills us.

The first Swiss Anabaptist beleaved in that kind of Holieness and perfection. They were roasted over slow fires and their women and children sufficated and drowned because of it.

I do not think they would recognize todays Menonites, Moravians, Methodists, Penticostals and Chrismatics as brethren. We know how they felt about Catholics, Luthrens and Calvinists, they saw them as enemies and loved them even while being killed by them.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

 

[catlover]

The Reformers and Their Stepchildren reveal the one thing Roman Catholicism and Protestantism have in common [without doubt], the marriage of Church and State.

That is one thing which piques my curiousity about The Anabaptists. I believe they have "more truth" than any other denomination because of that view.

 

[ZiSunka]

There you go Danfrey. Brother Daniel listed the verses that are used by Holiness folks in support of the idea that real Christians don't sin.