Anabaptist/Baptist differences

[Crazy Liz]

Heh, this is pretty interesting. Would I, as a pacifist (meaning that I will not serve in any combatant role in the military but will serve in a non-combatant role) be welcome as a Baptist?

A non-combatant in the military probably wouldn't be described as a pacifist, but may hold to Christian nonresistance. The two are different, but often confused. I think you might find some other threads here explaining the difference. If I have time to look for them, I'll post a link later.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Yes, menno, I too brought this up a couple or 3 months ago when I first discovered this denominational sub-group. I was told--by whom I don't recall--that there were only so many slots available, so some denominations had to be grouped together.

Also, some of us are pretty small. There probably have been about half a dozen Friends who have participated here, only two who come back regularly on a long-term basis. There are a few more Mennonites, but only 3 or 4 who participate regularly. To the best of my recollection, we have never had any Brethren stay around more than a few weeks. Without being grouped with Baptists, probably none of these groups would have enough members to sustain much of a discussion forum.

Besides, those of us who are here like to spice things up, rather than just talk with people who agree with us!

The main difference, Arminianism vs. Calvinism (as a stereotype), is a big one, and so Anabaptist would have maybe been more appropriately added over on the Wesley Parish channel; but perhaps it was God working behind the scenes to lump these two dissimilar denoms. together.

Grrr..... I hate it when people talk about Calvinists and Arminians that way. It perpetuates two misconceptions: (1) That predestination and free will are the most important Christian issues and (2) that all predestinarian Christians are Calvinists and all non-predestinarian Christians are Arminians. As an Anabaptist, I certainly am not a Calvinist, but I don't consider myself Arminian, either.

In any case, it has been interesting, though at times confusing. But since I have witnessed very few either Anabaptist or, surprisingly, Calvinistic threads here, it's usually not too much of a problem, and is a wonderful way to exercise the Fruits of the Spirit. (It seems all the staunch Calvin Sledges and Armin Hammers stay over on the Theology channels, where it seems more than half the threads are about such.)

brotherjim (an Ana.)

 

[Gold Dragon]

That is good to hear, although I have never seen a Baptist church like that. I will trust you that they exist. Maybe somewhere they are even a majority. That would be good news.

Just to reiterate what rural preacher said, every Baptist church I know of closely ties membership with baptism. There is talk about dissociating the two concepts because of the idea that it is the spiritual transformation that happens before a symbolic baptism that joins a person to the body of Christ. However, I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[MrJim]

Of course!

But here's how:

(From the life of St. Serapion)
Once Abba Serapion pasted through a certain Egyptian village and he saw a harlot standing at her house. And the elder said to her: "Wait for me till the evening, for I want to come and stay with you tonight." And she answer and said to him: "Good, Abba." And she made preparations and spread the bed and waited or the elder with-a gift. And in the evening the elder came to her, bringing nothing with him, and he went into-her room and said: "Have you prepare the bed? " She said: "Yes, Abba." And she closed the door so that they were alone. And the elder said to her: "Wait a little, for we have a rule which I must perform first." And the elder began his prayers, going through the Psalter from, the beginning, and after every psalm he made a prayer and asked God that she might repent and be saved. And God heard him. And the woman stood trembling and praying close to the elder; and when the elder had finished the psalms, the woman fell on the ground. The elder then began to read from the apostle, interpreted much from it and so performed his rule of prayer. And the woman was filled with contrition, and realizing that he had come to her not for sin but to save her soul, she fell at his feet, saying: "Do an act of charity, and take me where I can please God." Then the elder brought her to a monastery of virgins and committed her to the care of the superior and said: "Accept this sister and do not lay upon her a yoke and rules like the other sisters, but if she wants anything, give it her; and if she wants to leave, let her go out." And when she had lived in the convent a few days, she said: "I am a sinner, and I wish to eat only every other day. And after a few days more, she said to the abbess of the monastery: "As I have greatly offended God by my sins, do me an act of love and take me into a cell and close it, and through the window give me a little bread, and some work to do." And the abbess obeyed her and did this for her. And in this way she pleased God for the rest of her life.

/end quote

icxn

PS. Hi Jim and btw, I greatly enjoyed your posts on the "Fruits of the Spirit." Very well said.

3rd time today I've been awed by the Orthodox folks. I shouldn't have waited so long to get to know them!!!

 

[MrJim]

Also, some of us are pretty small. There probably have been about half a dozen Friends who have participated here, only two who come back regularly on a long-term basis. There are a few more Mennonites, but only 3 or 4 who participate regularly. To the best of my recollection, we have never had any Brethren stay around more than a few weeks. Without being grouped with Baptists, probably none of these groups would have enough members to sustain much of a discussion forum.

Besides, those of us who are here like to spice things up, rather than just talk with people who agree with us!



Grrr..... I hate it when people talk about Calvinists and Arminians that way. It perpetuates two misconceptions: (1) That predestination and free will are the most important Christian issues and (2) that all predestinarian Christians are Calvinists and all non-predestinarian Christians are Arminians. As an Anabaptist, I certainly am not a Calvinist, but I don't consider myself Arminian, either.

Crazy Liz hit the nail on the head again!

 

[Crazy Liz]

Just to reiterate what rural preacher said, every Baptist church I know of closely ties membership with baptism. There is talk about dissociating the two concepts because of the idea that it is the spiritual transformation that happens before a symbolic baptism that joins a person to the body of Christ. However, I don't see that happening any time soon.

Tying the two concepts may mean different things in your mind than mine. Maybe to clarify, we could state 4 possible categories:

1) a person who is not baptized and not a church member.

2) a person admitted to church membership without having been baptized.

3) a person who is baptized but does not immediately become a church member.

4) a person is baptized and admitted to church membership at the same time.

As far as I know, only Friends, Salvation Army and Evangelical Free churches allow #2.

My experience is that #3 is the general rule for Baptists and non-denoms.

#4 is the practice of Anabaptists.

GD, I'm not 100% sure what you were trying to say, but I think it is that some Baptists would prefer #2, although they presently tie baptism and church membership in the way described in #3, and RP is saying in his experience Baptists tie baptism and church membership as in #4, like Anabaptists. I may have misunderstood one or both of you, though, so please correct me if I did.

 

[Gold Dragon]

4) a person is baptized and admitted to church membership at the same time.

As far as I know, only Friends, Salvation Army and Evangelical Free churches allow #2.

My experience is that #3 is the general rule for Baptists and non-denoms.

#4 is the practice of Anabaptists.

GD, I'm not 100% sure what you were trying to say, but I think it is that some Baptists would prefer #2, although they presently tie baptism and church membership in the way described in #3, and RP is saying in his experience Baptists tie baptism and church membership as in #4, like Anabaptists. I may have misunderstood one or both of you, though, so please correct me if I did.

Yes. #4 is what I was referring to. Maybe there is a technicality in our constitution that I'm not aware of that would suggest #3, but as far as I am aware membership is immediately conferred with baptism.

For Baptists and non-denoms that you know of who follow #3, what has to happen before membership is granted?

 

[rural_preacher]

4) a person is baptized and admitted to church membership at the same time.

Yes. This is what happens.

--

 

[Crazy Liz]

Yes. #4 is what I was referring to. Maybe there is a technicality in our constitution that I'm not aware of that would suggest #3, but as far as I am aware membership is immediately conferred with baptism.

For Baptists and non-denoms that you know of who follow #3, what has to happen before membership is granted?

They have to be over 18 and apply to join the church. Usually there is an interview by the elders, and their membership is announced on a Sunday morning.

 

[rural_preacher]

So in that same vein of thought if Paul wants to reach a prostitute he'll become one?

You are comparing honorable military service with the sin of prostitution?!

I find that personally offensive!

As I have said, one must refrain from that which violates their conscience; however, one should be very careful not to judge or think less of the one who acts with a clear conscience. You need to spend some time studying Romans 14. I think it is interesting the combative approach so often used in defending pacifism.

You are free to be a conscientious objector. I have great respect for such a position. My service in the military contributes to your continued freedom to be a pacifist.

--

 

[Gold Dragon]

They have to be over 18 and apply to join the church. Usually there is an interview by the elders, and their membership is announced on a Sunday morning.

In my church, confirming the age requirement (I believe it is 16 but am not sure) and interview process happens before the baptism. There is an application form for those wishing to transfer their membership from another church.

Membership is automatic after baptism. All our baptisms happen on Sunday mornings.

 

[MrJim]

You are comparing honorable military service with the sin of prostitution?!

I find that personally offensive!

As I have said, one must refrain from that which violates their conscience; however, one should be very careful not to judge or think less of the one who acts with a clear conscience. You need to spend some time studying Romans 14. I think it is interesting the combative approach so often used in defending pacifism.

You are free to be a conscientious objector. I have great respect for such a position. My service in the military contributes to your continued freedom to be a pacifist.

--

I humbly ask your forgiveness for the offense. I was attempting (poorly in retrospect) to see how far someone goes into another lifestyle, even if that lifestyle is opposed to the example set by Christ.

My freedom as a "pacifist" (of which I would argue I am not a pacifist but for discussion sake we'll use it) is in Christ, not dependent upon government. As a former Marine I too understand that the sacrifice the military takes to defend a nation's ideology. However, even if I lived in an oppressive government I would still have this freedom-though the payment may be my imprisonment or death. My goal is to help people see past the political lines that so divides the church and see the bigger picture. And I don't think this involves killing people or defending nationalistic ideologies. There is so much to "being about the Father's business" to be diverted by these passing distractions.

Again, Rural Preacher, I accept your admonishment and will more carefully choose my words

 

[Crazy Liz]

In my church, confirming the age requirement (I believe it is 16 but am not sure) and interview process happens before the baptism. There is an application form for those wishing to transfer their membership from another church.

Membership is automatic after baptism. All our baptisms happen on Sunday mornings.

Are you saying your church does not baptize anyone under 16?

16 seems to be the age Anabaptists traditionally use for full ("voting") membership. That was the age used in the Mennonite Brethren church where I grew up. If you were baptized before age 16, you would be received into membership, but could not participate in business meetings until you were 16.

The Amish use age 16 as the age when young people are allowed to make their own decisions about following Christ. Some choose to be baptized and join the church soon after, while others "sow their wild oats" first. And, of course, about half never join - although I believe many of these do become Christians and join non-Amish churches.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Are you saying your church does not baptize anyone under 16?

16 seems to be the age Anabaptists traditionally use for full ("voting") membership. That was the age used in the Mennonite Brethren church where I grew up. If you were baptized before age 16, you would be received into membership, but could not participate in business meetings until you were 16.

Yes, we do not baptize those under a certain age, which I believe is 16. It may be younger or older, I can't quite remember but I'll check our constitution the next time I see it.

 

[rural_preacher]

I humbly ask your forgiveness for the offense. I was attempting (poorly in retrospect) to see how far someone goes into another lifestyle, even if that lifestyle is opposed to the example set by Christ.

No Problem.

 

[Conservative Mennonite]

I'm a former Baptist turned Mennonite. There's quite a few differences, IMHO. Since I lean more towards the Conservative Mennonite stance(duh), I tend to see other differences besides the non-resistance issue. There's also the issue of the headcovering, the holy kiss, footwashing, non-salaried ministers(not saying unpaid, just non-salaried). Most Baptist groups are OSAS, whereas most Mennonites tend not to be. Also coming from the conservative side of things, many Conservative Mennonites tend to be rather plain in dress. Mennonites also seem(IMHO) to be more family and fellowship oriented than most Baptists I know.

 

[MrJim]

I'm a former Baptist turned Mennonite. There's quite a few differences, IMHO. Since I lean more towards the Conservative Mennonite stance(duh), I tend to see other differences besides the non-resistance issue. There's also the issue of the headcovering, the holy kiss, footwashing, non-salaried ministers(not saying unpaid, just non-salaried). Most Baptist groups are OSAS, whereas most Mennonites tend not to be. Also coming from the conservative side of things, many Conservative Mennonites tend to be rather plain in dress. Mennonites also seem(IMHO) to be more family and fellowship oriented than most Baptists I know.

Welcome to the table-we look forward to your posts!

 

[McDLT]

Welcome to the table-we look forward to your posts!

To help you out menno - you are not pacifist, but a peacemaker. Pacifist don't do anything. Peacemakers actively seek peace.

There is another items that has been touched upon but I will give it a more used term (in my Mennonite circles) - "priesthood of all believers". The congregation leads the local church. Concenus is very important. Anabaptists tend to be real studiers of the Bible. (Not to offend because I do know there are others who also study the Bible, but this is one of many things the first Anabaptists were known for historically.)

I, too, mentioned how odd it was to put the 2 together. Also considering there are many denominations from the Baptist viewpoint to carry on it's own interesting debates without throwing in the varied Anabaptist denominations. Life is full of suprises.

====

I noticed that there wasn't a choice for denomination for Anabaptists, so I just choose Christian. At the present my denominational affliation lies the Mennonite Brethren and Brethren In Christ (not Brethren), both Anabaptist tradition. (My local church is bi-denominational, the first between the MBs and BICs in Canada.)

 

[MrJim]

Anabaptists are not Protestants.

 

[SteveR2021]

Anabaptists are not Protestants.

Is that something new? I'm not being sarcastic...is this a division that the Anabaptists have recently made?

Otherwise, Anabaptists are Protestants...in fact they were one of the earliest groups that grew out of Protestantism...