An Orthodox Deconstruction of Reformed Theology

[zippy2006]

so, my original answer was true (at least from the Orthodox POV). prolly should have asked WHY I said heresy, rather than the sarcastic response.

You gave a very poor answer, I called you out, you corrected with a substantially better answer, and I acknowledged it. That was a top-notch dialogue (at least by CF standards).

 

[ArmyMatt]

You gave a very poor answer, I called you out, you corrected with a substantially better answer, and I acknowledged it. That was a top-notch dialogue (at least by CF standards).

except I didn't correct anything. going into greater detail isn't the same thing.

but, this is good as far as Internet conversations go.

 

[hedrick]

you know this about us, how?

My understanding has always been that Catholic and Orthodox believe that the Holy Spirit guides the development of Tradition, but that this is guiding interpretation. It goes back to the Apostles. With a direct pipeline to God, you don't need the Apostles and you don't need Tradition. (For that matter, you don't need Jesus' teaching.) You get it directly from God.

All three traditions believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding them. Catholics make that explicit in the concept of Tradition. For the Reformers Scripture has its special role because the Holy Spirit speaks through it. (Indeed for Luther, it is through the preached Word -- and the Sacraments -- that God is present with us.) It's certainly possible that Orthodox believe something else, but I'd be surprised not to have heard about it before.

 

[hedrick]

Incidentally, the confessional Protestant churches have something close to Tradition. We believe that Scripture is interpreted by the community, not individually, although the individual always has the right to challenge the current community interpretation. This leads in practice to something like Tradition. In principle we don't claim that our Tradition (or anyone else's) is inerrant, although we do believe that the Holy Spirit guides us. But although in principle Tradition isn't inerrant, in practice the conservative Reformed denominations treat Tradition as expressed in the historical confessions as if it were inerrant.

 

[ArmyMatt]

My understanding has always been that Catholic and Orthodox believe that the Holy Spirit guides the development of Tradition, but that this is guiding interpretation. It goes back to the Apostles. With a direct pipeline to God, you don't need the Apostles and you don't need Tradition. (For that matter, you don't need Jesus' teaching.) You get it directly from God.

All three traditions believe that the Holy Spirit is guiding them. Catholics make that explicit in the concept of Tradition. For the Reformers Scripture has its special role because the Holy Spirit speaks through it. (Indeed for Luther, it is through the preached Word -- and the Sacraments -- that God is present with us.) It's certainly possible that Orthodox believe something else, but I'd be surprised not to have heard about it before.

well, that's not what we think. tradition isn't an interpretation, it's the life of the Holy Spirit within the Church. and the life of the Holy Spirit within the Church goes back before creation, so it is a direct pipeline.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

It's certainly possible that Orthodox believe something else, but I'd be surprised not to have heard about it before.

We believe in a one-story universe. No pipelines are necessary because He is everywhere present and filling all things.

“Pipelines” presuppose God and the spirits are “up there in heaven” while the rest of us are “down here on earth.” That’s not what we believe.

 

[hedrick]

well, that's not what we think. tradition isn't an interpretation, it's the life of the Holy Spirit within the Church. and the life of the Holy Spirit within the Church goes back before creation, so it is a direct pipeline.

i trust all Christians accept that the Holy Spirit is with us. But most of think he typically acts through means, such as Scripture and the Apostolic tradition. If your beliefs and practices aren't to some extent based on Jesus' life and teachings, and you just depend upon direct revelation, I don't see what distinguishes you from the Mormons leaders with their revelations.

Fortunately I believe that most Orthodox actually do acknowledge this. See e.g. The Orthodox Faith - Sources of Christian Doctrine

 

[zippy2006]

What are sacraments but pipelines of grace? What are ordained bishops and priests but conduits of grace? How is tradition the direct pipeline if factions have existed from the beginning, and continue to riddle Orthodox communions? Is the Holy Spirit divided?

No, clearly the answers aren't that simple.

 

[AMM]

What are sacraments but pipelines of grace?

this is what I was gonna ask. As I understand it, prayer and the sacraments are pretty direct ways that God unites us with Himself

 

[ripple the car]

What are sacraments but pipelines of grace? What are ordained bishops and priests but conduits of grace? How is tradition the direct pipeline if factions have existed from the beginning, and continue to riddle Orthodox communions? Is the Holy Spirit divided?

No, clearly the answers aren't that simple.

Yes, I agree.

I also would add that to discuss grace, the Trinity, and how God helps and guides and speaks to Christians apart from or outside of genuinely Apostolic Churches is a delicate yet real matter, and needs to be considered charitably and humbly. I have seen Him speak to and through fellow Christians, in spite of theological differences, errors, and divisions. I do think that right now, He is urging us towards greater charity, respect, humility, and unity. I do foresee actual persecution becoming a very real thing in the West, as well as the continued infiltration of socialism, humanism, modernism, feminism, and sexual perversion as normative across Churches and across denominations. It's a thing, and it's happening.

The answers are not that simple, and humility right now, more than anything, is needed. For all of us, everywhere.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Jay Dyer can be interesting but also quite acerbic.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

What are sacraments but pipelines of grace? What are ordained bishops and priests but conduits of grace? How is tradition the direct pipeline if factions have existed from the beginning, and continue to riddle Orthodox communions? Is the Holy Spirit divided?

No, clearly the answers aren't that simple.

In the context used by @hedrick, no. His use of “pipeline” made it sound akin to a literal interpretation of Jacob’s Ladder, or other similar situations.

Your use of “pipeline” is closer (yet crass) to how we’d describe the Holy Mysteries.

 

[ArmyMatt]

i trust all Christians accept that the Holy Spirit is with us. But most of think he typically acts through means, such as Scripture and the Apostolic tradition. If your beliefs and practices aren't to some extent based on Jesus' life and teachings, and you just depend upon direct revelation, I don't see what distinguishes you from the Mormons leaders with their revelations.

Fortunately I believe that most Orthodox actually do acknowledge this. See e.g. The Orthodox Faith - Sources of Christian Doctrine

our beliefs and practices are based on the life and teachings of Christ, that's where they come from and why we do them. that's how we know if a direct revelation is legit or not.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

For Roman Catholics; Theology derives from the Pope.
For Protestants; Theology derives from the scriptures.
For Othodox; Theology derives from the Holy Trinity.

I would say for The Orthodox Theology derives from The Holy Trinity, Holy Scripture, The Holy Fathers, The Holy Councils And Holy Tradition Collectively.


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[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Please forgive me OP but I just don't like or trust Jay Dyer.

I know that he is good and debating and all that jazz but there is just something deceptive and not right about him.

He's like the Orthodox version of Dr. James White.


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[JM]

Please forgive me OP but I just don't like or trust Jay Dyer.

I know that he is good and debating and all that jazz but there is just something deceptive and not right about him.

He's like the Orthodox version of Dr. James White.


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Dyer uses the presuppositional approach to apologetics. This is anything but 'O'rthodox, it's a Reformed apologetic that assumes sola scriptura. Dyer also replies on Reformed theonomist resources for his eschatology including David Chilton's commentary Days of Vengeance.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

Fr. Dcn Ananias debates Matt Slick

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

Fr. Dcn Ananias debates Matt Slick

Thanks for posting this.

That was entertaining LOL

I used to post on the Carm forums.


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[Xenophon]

Dyer uses the presuppositional approach to apologetics. This is anything but 'O'rthodox, it's a Reformed apologetic that assumes sola scriptura. Dyer also replies on Reformed theonomist resources for his eschatology including David Chilton's commentary Days of Vengeance.

That's like saying Sextus Empiricus was a 'Hume-ist' because he's used an argument of regress. Historically inaccurate and inane.

 

[Justin-H.S.]

Dyer uses the presuppositional approach to apologetics. This is anything but 'O'rthodox, it's a Reformed apologetic that assumes sola scriptura. Dyer also replies on Reformed theonomist resources for his eschatology including David Chilton's commentary Days of Vengeance.

He uses the TAG argument on pretty much everything, even on Sola Scriptura itself. TAG has been around longer than Reformed Apologetics because IIRC, Aristotle was using it. That Reformed Apologists independently happened upon TAG and called it "Presuppositional" is besides the point.