An Odd Question That Just Hit Me...

[Orthodox Andrew]

I just read a few chapters of a book called The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God By St. John Maximovitch, and something I never thought of just hit me. What's the real difference between the veneration we show the Holy Virgin Mary, and the worship we give to the Lord Jesus Christ? Let me just give you an idea of what I'm thinking. We pray to both, and believe that Mary has the power to do things for us in our life. We give praise to both God and the Theotokos. We make Icons of both etc... So what's the real difference? Other than saying we worship one, and honor the other?

P.S. I know this seems like a strange question coming from a person that calls himself Orthodox. But I can never stop asking questions, that's just me.

 

[Alfred M]

Andreas,

Just my personal thoughts for the most part, but I do not think that I pray TO the Theotokos, although I do communicate with her through prayer. I ask for her intercession/prayers. I pray TO Christ. The Theotokos is most blessed and her prayers to her Son our Lord Jesus Christ are indeed powerful. She paved the way for our salvation by her first "yes" to God and thus Christ. She is to be praised and venerated...yet her "power" is again through Christ...through her intercessions on our behalf.

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee O virgin Theotokos. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. For thou hast borne the saviour of our souls.

Hope I did not offend and you can make some sense out of what I try to communicate.

In the love of our Saviour,

Alfred

 

[Dorotheos]

Dear Andreas

I'm with Alfred on this one, although I can also add that the real difference is that we are intelligent. Simply knowing the difference is the important part. External actions as you describe them should always be understood in the light of the difference between latreia, the worship of God, hyperdouleia, the special veneration of the Theotokos, and douleia, the normal veneration of saints, the cross, etc.

Yours in Christ

Dorotheos

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Thanks for both of your replies.


I do agree with everyone thing you guys said. So am I right to say that one of the big ways that we act different to the Theotokos than we act to Christ, is the fact we know that one is God, and the other has all its power due to God's grace?

 

[Dorotheos]

Yes, I would say that that is pretty much it, although I would tend to be hyper-careful when using the word power. Like Alfred, I would put the word in quotation marks because I'm not sure what power really means: the way I tend to show my Orthodoxy when debating with the non-Orthodox is an extreme reluctance to define terms too carefully!

Yours in Christ

Dorotheos

 

[MariaRegina]

God is Divine in His Essence (Nature).

The Theotokos become by grace what God is by nature.

Her title "Full of Grace" denotes this.

We adore the Triune God, and we honor those holy ones (The Theotokos and the Saints) who have put on Christ. We venerate the Image and Icon of Christ which they have become.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Yes, I would say that that is pretty much it, although I would tend to be hyper-careful when using the word power. Like Alfred, I would put the word in quotation marks because I'm not sure what power really means: the way I tend to show my Orthodoxy when debating with the non-Orthodox is an extreme reluctance to define terms too carefully!

Yours in Christ

Dorotheos

I was very weary about using the work "power" as well. But I knew you guys all know what I mean by it.

 

[MariaRegina]

So when I kiss the hand of my priest who blesses me, I am venerating Christ within him.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

So when I kiss the hand of my priest who blesses me, I am venerating Christ within him.

True.

 

[Matrona]

What's the real difference between the veneration we show the Holy Virgin Mary, and the worship we give to the Lord Jesus Christ? Let me just give you an idea of what I'm thinking. We pray to both, and believe that Mary has the power to do things for us in our life. We give praise to both God and the Theotokos. We make Icons of both etc... So what's the real difference? Other than saying we worship one, and honor the other?

For me the difference is mainly one of simply knowing that I worship God and venerate His Holy Mother. As for praying to them, let's say for example that I am praying to be cured of a serious illness. In my prayer to God, I would simply ask Him to relieve my pain and restore my health. And when praying to the Theotokos, I would simply ask her to pray to God for me that I will be cured of my illness.

Speaking of which, I am wondering, what exactly should we say when praying to the saints? I always ask my patron saint for her intercessions ("Pray unto God for me, O Holy Saint Matrona, well-pleasing to God, who art the speedy helper and intercessor for my soul.") but I'm sort of lost on the specifics of how to pray to other saints, even the Mother of God, so would someone please, please help me out here? Thanks... I feel kind of sheepish that I don't already know this but hey, if you never ask questions, you never get answers.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Can I share something even though I am Catholic? (I once was Orthodox )

Before I made a decision between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, but after God had revealed the reality of Mary and the Communion of Saints to me, I had been pondering pretty much the same type of question you presented Andreas, though not as thought out . .

As I did so, I began to ponder and visualize acts that I performed towards Christ . prayer was one of them . . but then I visualized (I was just hinking, not actively trying to vizualize anything but I did none-the-less) Mary before me, and doing what I would do if I vizualized Christ before me, bowing down and kissing his feet . . I started to see myself do the same to Mary, and IMMEDIATELY the Holy Spirit spoke as clear as a bell in my heart "NO!" and stopped me, and I immediately understood that this as an act of worship due God alone and was not permitted to be given to Mary . . I was astonished! Most because of the clarity, immediacy and urgency with which the Holy Spirit spoke in my heart. . .

So, from that point, I clearly understood what was the difference between veneration due Mary and Worship due God ..


I hope this might help some!


Peace in Him!

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

For me the difference is mainly one of simply knowing that I worship God and venerate His Holy Mother. As for praying to them, let's say for example that I am praying to be cured of a serious illness. In my prayer to God, I would simply ask Him to relieve my pain and restore my health. And when praying to the Theotokos, I would simply ask her to pray to God for me that I will be cured of my illness.

Speaking of which, I am wondering, what exactly should we say when praying to the saints? I always ask my patron saint for her intercessions ("Pray unto God for me, O Holy Saint Matrona, well-pleasing to God, who art the speedy helper and intercessor for my soul.") but I'm sort of lost on the specifics of how to pray to other saints, even the Mother of God, so would someone please, please help me out here? Thanks... I feel kind of sheepish that I don't already know this but hey, if you never ask questions, you never get answers.

Good thoughts, Matrona.

Well when I speak to the other Saints. I usually just say somehing like "Saint John, pray that...."

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Can I share something even though I am Catholic? (I once was Orthodox )

Before I made a decision between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, but after God had revealed the reality of Mary and the Communion of Saints to me, I had been pondering pretty much the same type of question you presented Andreas, though not as thought out . .

As I did so, I began to ponder and visualize acts that I performed towards Christ . prayer was one of them . . but then I visualized (I was just hinking, not actively trying to vizualize anything but I did none-the-less) Mary before me, and doing what I would do if I vizualized Christ before me, bowing down and kissing his feet . . I started to see myself do the same to Mary, and IMMEDIATELY the Holy Spirit spoke as clear as a bell in my heart "NO!" and stopped me, and I immediately understood that this as an act of worship due God alone and was not permitted to be given to Mary . . I was astonished! Most because of the clarity, immediacy and urgency with which the Holy Spirit spoke in my heart. . .

So, from that point, I clearly understood what was the difference between veneration due Mary and Worship due God ..


I hope this might help some!


Peace in Him!

Your post was beautiful, and helped me a great deal, thanks!

God bless you!