An interesting verse?

[JMC309]

Ezekiel 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

How does this verse square with the idea of limited atonement?

 

[heymikey80]

Ezekiel 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

How does this verse square with the idea of limited atonement?

People die who don't turn away from their evil ways. Therefore the atonement, which would save people to live forever, is limited.

Maybe ... unconditional election?

First, the passage is actually critical of Israel operating their nations' laws without forgiveness or redemption. So the living and the dying are direct and physical life and death.

Second, God ordains means as well as ends. God doesn't just =dink= make people saved. He sets up every circumstance of human life. That includes appeals to repent. This constant critique from anti-Calvinists that God does all things monergistically isn't the case. It has never been the case, as Dordt pointed out nearly 400 years ago. In its Canons the synod denied the views of those alleging:
--that this teaching makes people carnally self-assured, since it persuades them that nothing endangers the salvation of the chosen, no matter how they live, so that they may commit the most outrageous crimes with self-assurance; and that on the other hand nothing is of use to the reprobate for salvation even if they have truly performed all the works of the saints;
--that this teaching means that God predestined and created, by the bare and unqualified choice of his will, without the least regard or consideration of any sin, the greatest part of the world to eternal condemnation; that in the same manner in which election is the source and cause of faith and good works, reprobation is the cause of unbelief and ungodliness

Those whom God chooses He chooses. But He supplies the Spirit; He supplies the circumstances; He supplies second causes; He supplies all things needed for the conversion of His elect. And they have the intended effect.

 

[UMP]

Ezekiel 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

How does this verse square with the idea of limited atonement?

Here is something very concise and well stated on this very BROAD subject:

http://www.soundofgrace.com/feb98/page5.htm

 

[Elect]

Ezekiel 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

How does this verse square with the idea of limited atonement?

In context, this verse is directed at Israel, not the whole world.

 

[eolculnamo2]

Ezekiel 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

How does this verse square with the idea of limited atonement?

lol it doesn't.

God doesn't have a limit to his forgiveness.

 

[strengthinweakness]

lol it doesn't.

God doesn't have a limit to his forgiveness.

God doesn't have a limit to His forgiveness? Then why does Jesus declare to the Father, in the High Priestly prayer of John, Chapter 17, that "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours"? (verse 9, English Standard Version)

 

[Iosias]

Ezekiel 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

How does this verse square with the idea of limited atonement?

I would be interested to see how this verse is applicable to the atonement.

Most Arminians would use this verse (as well as Ezekiel 18:23, 32) to attempt to disprove reprobation.

John Owen teaches

“To those are added that of Ezek. xviii. 23, that God hath no “pleasure at all that the wicked should die;” and, verse 32, “no pleasure in the death of him that dieth.”…

First, then, let us consider to whom and of whom these words are spoken. Is it to and of all men, or only to the house of Israel? Doubtless these last; they are only intended, they only are spoken to: “Hear now, O house of Israel,” verse 25. Now, will it follow that because God saith he delights not in the death of the house of Israel, to whom he revealed his mind, and required their repentance and conversion, that therefore he saith so of all, even those to whom he never revealed his will by such ways as to them, nor called to repentance, Ps. cxlvii. 19, 20? So that the very ground-work of the whole conclusion is removed by this first observation.

Secondly, “God willeth not the death of a sinner,” is either, “God purposeth and determineth he shall not die,” or, “God commandeth that he shall do those things wherein he may live.” If the first, why are they not all saved? Why do sinners die? For there is an immutability in the counsel of God, Heb. vi. 17; “His counsel shall stand, and he will do all his pleasure,” Isa. xlvi. 10. If the latter way, by commanding, then the sense is, that the Lord commandeth that those whom he calleth should do their duty, that they may not die (although he knows that this they cannot do without his assistance); now, what this makes to general redemption, I know not.

Thirdly, To add no more, this whole place, with the scope, aim, and intention of the prophet in it, is miserably mistaken by our adversaries, and wrested to that whereof there is not the least thought in the text. The 388words are a part of the answer which the Lord gives to the repining Jews, concerning their proverb, “The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.” Now, about what did they use this proverb? Why, “concerning the land of Israel,” verse 2, the land of their habitation, which was laid waste by the sword (as they affirmed) for the sins of their fathers, themselves being innocent. So that it is about God’s temporal judgments in overturning their land and nation that this dispute is; wherein the Lord justifieth himself by declaring the equity of these judgments by reason of their sins, even those sins for which the land devoured them and spewed them out; telling them that his justice is, that for such things they should surely die, their blood should be upon them, verse 13, — they shall be slain with the sword, and cut off by those judgments which they had deserved: not that the shedding of their blood and casting out of their carcases was a thing in itself so pleasurable or desirable to him as that he did it only for his own will, for let them leave their abominations, and try whether their lives were not prolonged in peace.

This being the plain, genuine scope and meaning of this place, at the first view presenting itself to every unprejudiced man, I have often admired how so many strange conclusions for a general purpose of showing mercy to all, universal vocation and redemption, have been wrested from it...”
​

Try:
An Interpretation of Ezekiel 33:11 by Rev. Herman Hoeksema
The Cause of God and Truth by Dr. John Gill

 

[cygnusx1]

try JOHN CALVIN!

 

[heymikey80]

lol it doesn't.

God doesn't have a limit to his forgiveness.

Were this true God would condemn forgiven people. There's no purpose to condemnation when all is forgiven.

 

[eolculnamo2]

Were this true God would condemn forgiven people. There's no purpose to condemnation when all is forgiven.

Where does it say that God condemns forgiven people? If there condemned, then there not forgiven.

What I believe is that God makes just decisions based upon the heart of the individual.

If the individual truly changes, I believe God will forgive them, but if they flippantly ask forgiveness and continue there sinning without much though, then I can see how they might not receive that forgiveness.

 

[KristiLee]

lol it doesn't.

God doesn't have a limit to his forgiveness.

Where does it say that God condemns forgiven people? If there condemned, then there not forgiven.

What I believe is that God makes just decisions based upon the heart of the individual.

If the individual truly changes, I believe God will forgive them, but if they flippantly ask forgiveness and continue there sinning without much though, then I can see how they might not receive that forgiveness.

If you are saying what I think you are saying than I agree with you.

I don't believe God's forgiveness is limited; He forgives us all but there is a difference between those that choose to accept the forgiveness and change their ways and those that don't choose to accept it (or flippantly claim they do) but continue in their evil ways. Please correct me if I'm misrepresenting - but that was my interpretation.

 

[heymikey80]

God doesn't have a limit to his forgiveness.

Were this true God would condemn forgiven people. There's no purpose to condemnation when all is forgiven.

Where does it say that God condemns forgiven people? If there condemned, then there not forgiven.

Nowhere. So there's a limit to God's forgiveness

What I believe is that God makes just decisions based upon the heart of the individual.

That's a limit to God's forgiveness. He looks into the heart of a person and bases His decisions on that.

If the individual truly changes, I believe God will forgive them, but if they flippantly ask forgiveness and continue there sinning without much though, then I can see how they might not receive that forgiveness.

Thus a limit.

Reformed Christianity of course sees this differently from your view, but it also has a limit.

The Reformed point is that no one truly changes on their own. Rom 3:9-19. "There is no one who seeks God." That "the heart is desperately wicked". That "all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin." This isn't just that we've "done something wrong." It's that we've intended to do so, from the heart. And in "unguarded moments" (or what would we be guarding?) we can see that our heart still sends forth wrong intents and evil desires.

In God's salvation we're all actually subject to something else -- unmerited favor from God. We're all wrong. We're all flippant; we all keep on sinning. Unless God is at work to make us true nothing happens to us. We need to be born of the Spirit to get anywhere against our sinfulness (John 3:1-8). Because our sinfulness is from the heart (Mk 7:20-23).

 

[orthedoxy]

If God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked and he changes the heart irresistibly then why doesn't he change everyone’s heart irresistibly?
Seems like from that verse God wants people to change and repent but the change of heart is not forced upon them, they would have to cooperate with Gods will.

 

[bradfordl]

If God does not have pleasure in the death of the wicked and he changes the heart irresistibly then why doesn't he change everyone’s heart irresistibly?

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

He has no pleasure (does not take delight) in the death of the wicked, but has pleasure (takes delight) in the wicked turning from his way and living.

A judge takes no delight in sentencing a murderer to death, but justice requires it. The same judge would take delight in seeing the murderer express remorse over his crime, but justice would still require his blood. A human judge has no ability to allow someone else to bear the sentence in the murderer's place, but God does; His Son. The blood requirement of justice is still met, but by the Blood of Jesus in the place of the murderer's.

If God desired, He could cause every sinner to turn from his wickedness and believe on His Son (or do you deny that He is able to do that?), but obviously He does not do that. There must be a reason why He doesn't that is more important than that He takes no delight in the death of the wicked. That reason, in my estimation, would have to be that His glory requires the death of the wicked to be adequately displayed.

The wickedness of our hearts is far more unholy and despicable in contrast to God's holiness than our sin-warped little minds can understand, and the multitude of vessels of wrath are a testimony to that fact.

The glory of His grace is displayed in the vessels of mercy, and that too is far beyond our comprehension, that He would go to such amazing lengths to reconcile to Himself a remnant out of such a cesspool of sin.

What you are doing is confusing two things that are categorically different. What He takes delight in is a category that does not rise to the importance of the category of His glory.

Another important aspect is that this statement is addressed to the wicked of covenant Israel, not to all the wicked of the world. That He takes no delight in the unrepentance of His covenant people will not prevent Him from displaying the glory of His righteous judgement by their destruction.

Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

 

[cygnusx1]

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


please keep in mind I am not talking here about predestination , or election or millenialism or how much a loaf of bread costs .......

I am merely pointing out scripture does say that God can and God does say He will delight in the destruction of some ..

and many were destroyed ... and God delighted to destroy them .... what!!!!

have you never read God will laugh at sinners when they call on Him to save them but all too late?

I am not here discussing conditions , they are irrelevant just as predestination is not germaine to what is on the table , the fact is many have such a one sided view of scripture because they don't know the scriptures well enough and feel content to only recite what they have heard over and over , never looking further than the small ground they are familiar with , yet even Apollos was taken to one side. for further instruction... Acts 18

There are scriptures that present a balance.

Be advised scripture does state God does not delight in the death of a sinner (EZ 18)

but scripture also states God can delight in the death of sinners ....... to some minds this will seem like a contradiction , IT IS NOT.

One merely has to look at the context , God does not 'in and of itself ' delight in the death of a sinner .....


yet God can and God does delight in the death of a sinner IN SO FAR AS HIS JUSTICE IS MADE KNOWN!

here is what many lack ;








Deuteronomy 28:63 where Moses warns of coming judgment on unrepentant Israel.

And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you​

 

[KristiLee]

Great scripture! Thanks for sharing cygnusx1!

 

[orthedoxy]

We are delighted when a criminal is caught and brought to justice. We can also say”
I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die”
We want people to turn away from their wicked ways we don’t want them to commit evil and die, Same with God he want’s everyone to turn away from their evil ways, he doesn’t delight in their death he wants them to repent but if they don’t they will die. I think the verse is pretty self-explanatory.

Brad
A judge doesn’t delight in the judgement but if he is the causes of the criminal act and ordains people to commit the evil. How can he not be pleased with the result?
This is why I don’t believe in irresistible grace. God want people to love him and turn away from their sins but just can’t force them.

 

[bradfordl]

Brad
A judge doesn’t delight in the judgement but if he is the causes of the criminal act and ordains people to commit the evil. How can he not be pleased with the result?

Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?

As I tried to point out, and apparently you missed, is that there are categorecal differences between the death of the wicked and God's glory. While He does not find the act of destroying the wicked pleasurable in and of itself, He does find great pleasure in glorifying His holiness, and to acheive that righteous end He carries out the act of their destruction. He's not destroying them for pleasure, he's destroying them for His own glory.

It says He has no pleasure in it, not that He finds it to be detestable. This denotes a neutrality rather than the detestation you imply. So He's saying that it's not as though He relishes their damnation, but that He does have pleasure in their repentance. One neutral, the other positive. Not negative-positive.

As for His ordaining their actions, that in no way absolves them of their own willfull decision in time to do evil. I know that's complicated, but it is scripture:

Pro 16:9 The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.

 

[orthedoxy]

Brad
Eze 18:24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. 27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life. 28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Are my ways unjust, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 "Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Look God says salvation is depended upon man action” If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die”
“If a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life”
Granted God is the one that does the saving but he requires action in order to save.
God also wants everyone to repent. “ For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live”
Does God want people to sin?
Is God good? If so what does that mean?
Were all Jews saved?
From the verse that you showed I'm not saying God can't save a certain person God can save anyone. I just think God will not have mercy on the unrepented people.

 

[bradfordl]

2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil,
2Ti 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

So God grants repentance! If, then, He will only have mercy on those who are repentant, and repentance is something He must give before they can have, then it would appear that this is also true:

Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

The mercy is contingent upon an act of God's will, not upon an act of man's will. And He grants repentance only to those upon whom it is His will to have mercy.

There is a desire in the flesh of every man to wrest from God His sovereignty and acquire it for himself. We try to make God in our image, and twist the facts of what is fair as though we were anywhere near an equal footing with Him. We say it would not be 'fair' for God to ordain our sin and then find fault. We say that it would not be 'fair' for God to save us, or do anything else, against our wills. But what is 'fair' is eternal hell for us all, and if He did not do anything against our wills then no flesh would be saved.