An interesting verse?

[orthedoxy]

So God grants repentance! If, then, He will only have mercy on those who are repentant, and repentance is something He must give before they can have, then it would appear that this is also true:

The mercy is contingent upon an act of God's will, not upon an act of man's will. And He grants repentance only to those upon whom it is His will to have mercy.

There is a desire in the flesh of every man to wrest from God His sovereignty and acquire it for himself. We try to make God in our image, and twist the facts of what is fair as though we were anywhere near an equal footing with Him. We say it would not be 'fair' for God to ordain our sin and then find fault. We say that it would not be 'fair' for God to save us, or do anything else, against our wills. But what is 'fair' is eternal hell for us all, and if He did not do anything against our wills then no flesh would be saved.

God grants repentance but not irresistably.
Would you say God has mercy before people repent or after?
We know God could have mercy on whom ever he wills but we know he won't have mercy unless we repent read Eze 18 again. His having mercy is contingent upon us repenting even if you were to say he forces us to repent(which is not true) still he has to make us repent before he could forgive, you still believe Gods having mercy is contingent upon people repenting.
You see therfore God is the one having mercy he can have mercy on whever he wills but according to ezek 18 he requires repentance in order for him to forgive.
please answer this does God have mercy before or after people repent?
Also how is this verse not contingent?
Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.

 

[BBAS 64]

Ezekiel 33:11Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

How does this verse square with the idea of limited atonement?

Good Day, JMC

What makes you think this has any thing to do with the extent or the nature of the atonement in any way??

In Him,

Bill

 

[bradfordl]

please answer this does God have mercy before or after people repent?

Before. Repentance is granted as a component of His mercy of redemption.

Also how is this verse not contingent?
Eze 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live.

It is contingent. But since we must interpret scripture by scripture, and there are plenty of other scriptures that plainly declare that repentance is a thing granted by God; a thing the natural mind is incapable of; we must conclude that the first contingent cause is that of God's choosing. As the WCF states, this does not take away the contingency of second causes, but establishes it.

By nature we are enemies of God and have no desire to seek Him or be reconciled to Him. His intervention in the hearts of the elect move them repentance and faith. This passage in Ezekial changes none of that, it is simply a call upon the heart of the elect to repent, and a declaration of condemnation upon the reprobate. Scripture does not contradict scripture, and it is inappropriate to reject biblical truth in the pursuit of misinterpreting other teachings in scripture to support our own invented ideas of what God oughta be like. That is idolatry.

 

[orthedoxy]

Forgivness is contingent upon repentance or the secound cause.
salvation is contingent upon our action.
The bible says if you turn away from your sin, if you believe, if you confess Jesus with your mouth,unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you etc..
Before one repent he is not saved or before he confess Jesus with their mouth they are not saved.
How do you explain when the bible says salvation is predestined when people are not saved before they repent or believe?
How do you explain the fact salvation is contingent upon our action?

 

[Iosias]

Forgivness is contingent upon repentance or the secound cause.
salvation is contingent upon our action.
The bible says if you turn away from your sin, if you believe, if you confess Jesus with your mouth,unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you etc..
Before one repent he is not saved or before he confess Jesus with their mouth they are not saved.
How do you explain when the bible says salvation is predestined when people are not saved before they repent or believe?
How do you explain the fact salvation is contingent upon our action?

Acts 13:48 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"

2 Timothy 1:9, 10 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"

 

[Rick Otto]

Forgivness is contingent upon repentance or the secound cause.

If that were uniformly true (without exception), we'd be toast.
I know a woman who forgave her father for incest, even tho he never admitted it. Her sister could not do that and so lives in dysfunctional bitterness & pain.

salvation is contingent upon our action.

Then we earn it. It ain't free. It ain't no gift.

The bible says if you turn away from your sin, if you believe, if you confess Jesus with your mouth,unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you etc..

The word "if" and the chain of causation do not remove The First Cause nor does it imply creations can act beyond the possibilities He created for them.

Before one repent he is not saved or before he confess Jesus with their mouth they are not saved.

Yeah, we know. That isn't what we mean, we mean they saved "according to plan" (which IS a guarantee), but each pre-creation planned salvation occurs in time.

How do you explain when the bible says salvation is predestined when people are not saved before they repent or believe?

Ephesians tells us, I think in the first chapter.

How do you explain the fact salvation is contingent upon our action?

WE don't because it isn't. We explain our salvation is dependant upon His mercy(grace) alone. The "thru-faith" part is how it works, not why it works.
Nice to see ya over here.
Thanks for stoppin' by.

 

[orthedoxy]

AV1611
Act 13:48 This verse is saying all the saved Jews believed in Jesus.

Rick
I'm OO not EO.
You don't sound like a Calvinist.
Ezek 18:21 says you have to repent in order for God to forgive. Would you agree?
When the bible says repent or confess or believe aren't these conditions?
I agree salvation is God's work he initiates salvation and he is the one that does the saving, this doesn't take away the fact that he requires us to do certain things, like believing. Even if God is the first cause how could the second cause not have anything to do with who God has mercy on?
Would you say one is saved before he believes? How do you explain verses like rom 10:9 if you confess Jesus with your mouth you will be saved? Or Eze 18:21?
Would you say these people were saved before they confessed or repented?
The Bible tells us we were saved before the world not merely chosen to be saved.
God bless
P.s were you Lotar before?

 

[JMC309]

What makes you think this has any thing to do with the extent or the nature of the atonement in any way??

My thoughts focused on the idea of God taking no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but their life being entirely dependant on God's grace, and God only saving a select few. It may have been a verse such as this that led the theologian Karl Barth to adopt a universalist position, coupling the idea that God desires that no sinner dies unrepentant with the concept of irresistable grace. There seemed to be a difference between what God desired and what God did.

 

[Rick Otto]

Gotta love those OO brothers too!

48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I know, the greek for "ordained" you parse into "positioned themselves" or somethin' like that?

Half the time, I don't even sound like a Christian, unless you're listenin' real close.
I think it is a mischaracterization to say that God "requires" us to believe.
I think it is entirely wrong to say &/or imply, and is at the very least misleading to characterize salvation as conditional, when the only condition by definition is mercy.
Belief is a gift.
Repentance is a gift.
The fact that these gifts appear sequentialy does not render salvation conditional - a reward given upon demonstration of merit. That is compeltely antithetical, wouldn't you agree?
"Saved" hasmore than one application. More than one sense of the word is meaningful and accurate.
We were "saved" according to God's determinate council when He was planning His creation, before He created it.
Nothing is an accident in that sense alone.
We experience time sequentialy, but that doesn't mean it wasn't entirely a planned event with no controls.
Being omniscient precludes that. He could not cause without being intimately aware of effect.
So everyone in that sense was saved before "the foundation of the world". In that same sense, Jesus was condemned to die before creation began, and the guys who would crucify Him were condemned.

So now you confuse me:

"The Bible tells us we were saved before the world not merely chosen to be saved."

That sounded like you understand election, but you also sound like you think we AREN't saved until we meet required conditions.
Now I am confused.
Nope, never been "Lotar" - no confusion there.

Predestination does not remove personal responsibility;
Ac 2:23 - Show Context Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[cygnusx1]

Gotta love those OO brothers too!

OO

WHAT'S THAT .......... OLYMPIC ORTHODOX ?

LOOKS LIKE THE MYSTERONS TO ME.....


EO .. OO ..NO .... JU-DO ..

 

[Rick Otto]

EIEIO
Old Macdonald had a religion...

 

[orthedoxy]

Gotta love those OO brothers too!

48: And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I know, the greek for "ordained" you parse into "positioned themselves" or somethin' like that?

Half the time, I don't even sound like a Christian, unless you're listenin' real close.
I think it is a mischaracterization to say that God "requires" us to believe.
I think it is entirely wrong to say &/or imply, and is at the very least misleading to characterize salvation as conditional, when the only condition by definition is mercy.
Belief is a gift.
Repentance is a gift.
The fact that these gifts appear sequentialy does not render salvation conditional - a reward given upon demonstration of merit. That is compeltely antithetical, wouldn't you agree?
"Saved" hasmore than one application. More than one sense of the word is meaningful and accurate.
We were "saved" according to God's determinate council when He was planning His creation, before He created it.
Nothing is an accident in that sense alone.
We experience time sequentialy, but that doesn't mean it wasn't entirely a planned event with no controls.
Being omniscient precludes that. He could not cause without being intimately aware of effect.
So everyone in that sense was saved before "the foundation of the world". In that same sense, Jesus was condemned to die before creation began, and the guys who would crucify Him were condemned.

So now you confuse me:

That sounded like you understand election, but you also sound like you think we AREN't saved until we meet required conditions.
Now I am confused.
Nope, never been "Lotar" - no confusion there.

Predestination does not remove personal responsibility;
Ac 2:23 - Show Context Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Rick Act 13:48 is not saying those who were predestined before the creation believed.
It is saying those Jews who were faithful and were saved(ordained to eternal life) but haven't yet believed in Jesus yet because they haven't heard of Jesus believed in Jesus.
I think this is what act 13 in context says.
What do you think?

Repentance is a gift, baptism is a gift, and good works is a gift. What is your point these can't be work because they are gifts?
If I were to say if you confess Jesus with your mouth you will be saved is this a condition?
If I were to say you need to repent before I forgive you is this conditional? This is from Ezek 18 and Rom 10.

 

[bradfordl]

You say:

If I were to say if you confess Jesus with your mouth you will be saved is this a condition?

Then:

If I were to say you need to repent before I forgive you is this conditional?

Well, let's see. What does "conditional" mean?

Conditional: Any statement in the following form: If A, then B. Remember that to say “if A, then B” is not the same thing as saying “A”, and it is not the same thing as saying “B”. In the conditional if A, then B, A is the sufficient condition and B is the necessary condition.

You are saying if I repent (A), then you will forgive (B). By definition that is a conditional statement. The condition is repentance; if that condition is not met - A - you declare by inference that then you will not forgive - B.

Conditional in every respect.

The first statement is a declaritive. It declares that those who confess Jesus will be saved. The second statement is an imperative, demanding prior action by the first party before a resultant action will be taken by the second.

Brad

 

[Rick Otto]

Rick Act 13:48 is not saying those who were predestined before the creation believed.
It is saying those Jews who were faithful and were saved(ordained to eternal life) but haven't yet believed in Jesus yet because they haven't heard of Jesus believed in Jesus.
I think this is what act 13 in context says.
What do you think?

I think it does say that,

Repentance is a gift, baptism is a gift, and good works is a gift. What is your point these can't be work because they are gifts?

Works they are, but they are works of God... they are results, not investments.

If I were to say if you confess Jesus with your mouth you will be saved is this a condition?

If-then,... no denying it is a "condition", but it doesn't necessarily imply that anyone can confess that without The Holy Spirit directly intervening to enable that. Jesus said as much to Peter after askin' him who do you say I am.

If I were to say you need to repent before I forgive you is this conditional? This is from Ezek 18 and Rom 10.

Sure, but it doesn't end there. Here's the condition: you don't repent if you haven't been given that gift.
Conditions like that can explain the dynamics or 'architecture' of the relationship-how it works, but they don't explain the basis of, the relationship- its foundation.

 

[orthedoxy]

I think it does say that,

Works they are, but they are works of God... they are results, not investments.

I thought everything in Calvinist view is the work of God?
How can you even have such thing as salvation by works when everything is ordained irresistably?
You can even sell salvation and call that the work of God. No one could buy salvation unless God allows him to do so.

If-then,... no denying it is a "condition", but it doesn't necessarily imply that anyone can confess that without The Holy Spirit directly intervening to enable that. Jesus said as much to Peter after askin' him who do you say I am.

If that is a condition then salvation is conditioned on what you do. Even if God is the one is bringing you to confess or repent. Seems like Calvinist believe salvation is by what God makes us do, which is still by somthing we do verses it's God the one doing salvation after considering what we have done.

Sure, but it doesn't end there. Here's the condition: you don't repent if you haven't been given that gift.
Conditions like that can explain the dynamics or 'architecture' of the relationship-how it works, but they don't explain the basis of, the relationship- its foundation.

Salvation therfore is conditional by what you do if you repent God will save you if you turn away from God you will not be saved.

 

[Rick Otto]

I thought everything in Calvinist view is the work of God?

In a sense, but not in the sense that men are not responsible for their actions, that would make us robots.

How can you even have such thing as salvation by works when everything is ordained irresistably?

Oila! You cannot! Thus, "salvation by grace".

You can even sell salvation and call that the work of God. No one could buy salvation unless God allows him to do so.

Well, sorta - exactly.
God sold it to the only guy who could afford to buy it, & that guy gave it to us.

If that is a condition then salvation is conditioned on what you do.

Ok, except nothin' we can do meets the conditional requirements. Our best efforts are "as filthy rags"

Even if God is the one is bringing you to confess or repent.

He's the only one who can do that.

Seems like Calvinist believe salvation is by what God makes us do, which is still by somthing we do verses it's God the one doing salvation after considering what we have done.

Well, we can't do anything worth consideration of ourselves, so His work, His gifting of saving grace delivers the faith:
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Salvation therfore is conditional by what you do if you repent God will save you if you turn away from God you will not be saved

.
So then you're saying we save ourselves.
Very tempting.

 

[bradfordl]

I thought everything in Calvinist view is the work of God?
How can you even have such thing as salvation by works when everything is ordained irresistably?
You can even sell salvation and call that the work of God. No one could buy salvation unless God allows him to do so.

I must not be smokin' the right stuff to understand any of that.

Salvation therfore is conditional by what you do if you repent God will save you if you turn away from God you will not be saved.

So then what could it mean when it is said we are saved from before the foundation of the world? If God's waiting for us to do a thing before He can do His thing, that would make no sense. God ordains the outcome and ordains the means. Repentance is necessary for salvation because it is a part of salvation, part of what God does in saving us.... grants us repentance.

 

[orthedoxy]

In a sense, but not in the sense that men are not responsible for their actions, that would make us robots.


Oila! You cannot! Thus, "salvation by grace".


Well, sorta - exactly.
God sold it to the only guy who could afford to buy it, & that guy gave it to us.

Ok, except nothin' we can do meets the conditional requirements. Our best efforts are "as filthy rags"


He's the only one who can do that.

Well, we can't do anything worth consideration of ourselves, so His work, His gifting of saving grace delivers the faith:
John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
.
So then you're saying we save ourselves.
Very tempting.

Are you responsible over your salvation or are you a robot?

I don't say we save ourselves because we can't do anything to automatically save our self. God saves he can choose to save whoever he wants but he makes his decision after he sees our action and he promise to save those who repent like in Eze 18 or those who confess like in Rom 10.
Read matt 25:31to the end. You see God is choosing to save people or the bases for his choosing is after they lived their lives and not before.
God chooses according to his foreknowledge

1pet 1:1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

 

[heymikey80]

Happy Birthday, Orthedoxy!

Are you responsible over your salvation or are you a robot?

Mmm, we're responsible for our actions, which condemn us. We rely on God's grace which saves us.

I don't say we save ourselves because we can't do anything to automatically save our self. God saves he can choose to save whoever he wants but he makes his decision after he sees our action and he promise to save those who repent like in Eze 18 or those who confess like in Rom 10.

Hm, did Scripture say "after" the foundation of the world or "before"?

Read matt 25:31to the end. You see God is choosing to save people or the bases for his choosing is after they lived their lives and not before.

I just read the start of it. You see God choosing to save people by separating sheep from goats. he then judges the sheep differently from the goats.

God chooses according to his foreknowledge

1pet 1:1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

But what that knowledge is, is not declared.

To many Calvinists this knowledge is not retrieving prior knowledge about people. It's knowing people, that is, relating with them, being God to them before they are created.

 

[Rick Otto]

Are you responsible over your salvation or are you a robot?

Is there a door number 3?
I'm convinced God is responsible for my salvation & I am responsible for my sins. Does that sound crazy?

I don't say we save ourselves because we can't do anything to automatically save our self.

How 'bout "manualy"?

God saves he can choose to save whoever he wants but he makes his decision after he sees our action and he promise to save those who repent like in Eze 18 or those who confess like in Rom 10.

So then He didn't know exactly who would do exactly what when He Created?

Read matt 25:31to the end. You see God is choosing to save people or the bases for his choosing is after they lived their lives and not before.

The basis was foreknown. Did God know but not create the future? Does the future not already exist in God's knowlege simply because you haven't lived it? If He created you to be you, did He not know who you would become? Are you so free willing that you can surprise God? His choosing (election) was by predeterminate counsel, not clairvoyance.

God chooses according to his foreknowledge

Dod foreknows because God foreordains
1Peter1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1pet 1:1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Ac 2:23 - Show Context Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:Ro 8:33 - Show Context Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Ephesians 1: 1: Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6: To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7: In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8: Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9: Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: