An in depth look at The Ten Commandments

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,176
2,197
54
Northeast
✟181,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I asked you about post #34. Why do you now ask me about it and not give me your own answer? You don't want to answer? Okay, that's fine with me.

However, if one does not understand those things, which you have decided are to be read as metaphorical, how will they understand the things in Exodus 34? And who decides whether what the other poster posted is metaphorical or physical? I say, this is nothing more than the mind of the reader arbitrarily making such decisions without the reader even truly thinking about what his or her mind is doing. That was a big part of the reason why I responded the way I did to the other poster to begin with, who said, "Lets keep them all", after quoting Exodus 34:18-23.

If you do the following also, you will be doing the will of the Father, fulfilling the Torah, and doing the commandments of the Master all at the same time:

Exodus 32:25-29 KJV
25 And when Moses saw that the people were naked; (for Aaron had made them naked unto their shame among their enemies: )
26 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him.
27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.
29 For Moses had said, Consecrate yourselves to day to the LORD, even every man upon his son, and upon his brother; that he may bestow upon you a blessing this day.

Ah yes, a special blessing for putting to death the evil doers in your gates.

Deuteronomy 32:8-11 KJV
8 And of Levi he said, Let thy Thummim and thy Urim be with thy holy one, whom thou didst prove at Massah, and with whom thou didst strive at the waters of Meribah;
9 Who said unto his father and to his mother, I have not seen him; neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have observed thy word, and kept thy covenant.
10 They shall teach Jacob thy judgments, and Israel thy law: they shall put incense before thee, and whole burnt sacrifice upon thine altar.
11 Bless, LORD, his substance, and accept the work of his hands: smite through the loins of them that rise against him, and of them that hate him, that they rise not again.

Blessed be Levi, Who said to his father and his mother, I have not seen them: neither did he acknowledge his brethren, nor knew his own children: for they have diligently observed the Word of the Father, and kept the Covenant.

Luke 14:25-27 KJV
25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them,
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Matthew 10:33-39 KJV
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. [Micah 7:5-6]
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Micah 7:5-6 KJV
5 Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom. [Deuteronomy 13:6]
6 For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house. [Matthew 10:36]

Deuteronomy 13:4-9 KJV
4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

Luke 12:51-53 KJV
51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Choosing between reading one text as metaphorical while reading another text as physically literal, when neither text explicitly says so either way, is nothing more than the natural mind choosing what it perceives to be in its own best interest. All these teachings from the Messiah in the Gospel accounts herein above are from the Torah and Prophets. If they are metaphorical when the Master expounds them in the Gospel accounts then they are meant that way also in the Torah.
I'm not now asking you a question. I asked you a question in post 35, which I later realized you answered in post 36.

Who decides what is metaphorical and what is not? The Holy Spirit.

The other questions in your post sound rhetorical to me. But if there is something you want me to respond to, please let me know.

And may the peace of the Lord be always with you!
 
Upvote 0

daq

Messianic
Jan 26, 2012
4,863
1,041
Devarim 11:21
Visit site
✟113,468.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Who decides what is metaphorical and what is not? The Holy Spirit.

So the Holy Spirit told you that the Mark 9 passage, (already quoted), is metaphorical? We also have companion passages, such as Matthew 5:29-30 and Matthew 18:8-9, (and indeed, nowhere are we informed by the authors whether these things are intended to be allegorical-metaphorical or physically-literal).

Here is the problem I have with what you say: you've now basically said, (probably without realizing it), that Gehenna, (a.k.a. Hell), is metaphorical, but somehow I doubt that you also believe that to be the case.

Is Gehenna or Hell just a metaphor? I suspect that this is exactly what I already strongly suggested to be the case: the mind flip-flopping back and forth between physically literal and allegorical or metaphorical interpretations in order to pave the way for what the mind perceives to be in its own best interest in whatever doctrine is being held, upheld, or rejected, (and we all do this until we start to realize what we are doing, and are forced to retrain ourselves not to do it anymore: and it is a serious struggle to stop doing this).

However the flip-flopping is absolutely impossible in the Mark passage I quoted without turning the whole passage into utter ridiculousness.

Mark 9:43-49 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: [metaphorical!] it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, [metaphorical!] than having two hands to go into hell, [literal!] into the fire that never shall be quenched: [literal!]
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [literal!]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: [metaphorical!] it is better for thee to enter halt into life, [metaphorical!] than having two feet to be cast into hell, [literal!] into the fire that never shall be quenched: [literal!]
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [literal!]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: [metaphorical!] it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God [literal!] with one eye, [metaphorical!] than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: [literal!]
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [literal!]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, [metaphorical!] and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [literal!]

flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop ...
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,176
2,197
54
Northeast
✟181,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But then who decides what the Holy Spirit intends?
That the Holy Spirit has the ability to communicate with us is a matter of faith imo.

There can be disputes over whether the Spirit communicates with individuals or the Church as a whole.

Does that answer your question?
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,176
2,197
54
Northeast
✟181,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So the Holy Spirit told you that the Mark 9 passage, (already quoted), is metaphorical? We also have companion passages, such as Matthew 5:29-30 and Matthew 18:8-9, (and indeed, nowhere are we informed by the authors whether these things are intended to be allegorical-metaphorical or physically-literal).

Here is the problem I have with what you say: you've now basically said, (probably without realizing it), that Gehenna, (a.k.a. Hell), is metaphorical, but somehow I doubt that you also believe that to be the case.

Is Gehenna or Hell just a metaphor? I suspect that this is exactly what I already strongly suggested to be the case: the mind flip-flopping back and forth between physically literal and allegorical or metaphorical interpretations in order to pave the way for what the mind perceives to be in its own best interest in whatever doctrine is being held, upheld, or rejected, (and we all do this until we start to realize what we are doing, and are forced to retrain ourselves not to do it anymore: and it is a serious struggle to stop doing this).

However the flip-flopping is absolutely impossible in the Mark passage I quoted without turning the whole passage into utter ridiculousness.

Mark 9:43-49 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: [metaphorical!] it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, [metaphorical!] than having two hands to go into hell, [literal!] into the fire that never shall be quenched: [literal!]
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [literal!]
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: [metaphorical!] it is better for thee to enter halt into life, [metaphorical!] than having two feet to be cast into hell, [literal!] into the fire that never shall be quenched: [literal!]
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [literal!]
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: [metaphorical!] it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God [literal!] with one eye, [metaphorical!] than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: [literal!]
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. [literal!]
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, [metaphorical!] and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. [literal!]

flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop ...
The Holy Spirit did not speak to me directly, no. But I do believe the Spirit guides me in a significant way.
_____________
About metaphors

Consider the statement:
Richard had the heart of a lion.
That's a metaphor. But saying it's a metaphor isn't saying that there are no literal lions.

Does that answer your question?
 
Upvote 0

daq

Messianic
Jan 26, 2012
4,863
1,041
Devarim 11:21
Visit site
✟113,468.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The Holy Spirit did not speak to me directly, no. But I do believe the Spirit guides me in a significant way.
_____________
About metaphors

Consider the statement:
Richard had the heart of a lion.
That's a metaphor. But saying it's a metaphor isn't saying that there are no literal lions.

Does that answer your question?

Mark 9:43-49 KJV
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Leviticus 2:13 LXX (Brenton)
13 And every gift of your sacrifice shall be seasoned with salt; omit not the salt of the covenant of the Lord from your sacrifices: on every gift of yours ye shall offer salt to the Lord your God.

Romans 8:4-8 KJV
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Peter 2:5 KJV
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Romans 12:1-2 KJV
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

:wave:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Leaf473
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
6,926
5,005
69
Midwest
✟283,621.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That the Holy Spirit has the ability to communicate with us is a matter of faith imo.

There can be disputes over whether the Spirit communicates with individuals or the Church as a whole.

Does that answer your question?
It still leaves it all as individual faith.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,176
2,197
54
Northeast
✟181,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It still leaves it all as individual faith.
If the Holy Spirit speaks to and guides the Church as a whole, then it wouldn't be an individual faith imo... Unless I'm not understanding what you're saying.

But I agree that each individual has the choice to believe in / have faith in one of these ideas:

The Spirit speaks to each individual, usually as they read the Bible,

The Spirit speaks to the church as a whole,

The Spirit doesn't really speak to or guide us today in any significant way. Kind of a bummer, but I think that's how a lot of Christians live today.

I'm not sure of the OP's views on the above as it relates to the ten commandments. Looks like he started the thread and left. Which is fine, of course.

Peace be with you, my friend!
 
Upvote 0

Akita Suggagaki

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2018
6,926
5,005
69
Midwest
✟283,621.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If the Holy Spirit speaks to and guides the Church as a whole, then it wouldn't be an individual faith imo... Unless I'm not understanding what you're saying.
What I meant was it is then up to the individual believer to discern which church is best guided by the Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Leaf473

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2020
8,176
2,197
54
Northeast
✟181,191.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What I meant was it is then up to the individual believer to discern which church is best guided by the Holy Spirit.
Well, here's how I see it:

There's only one church, one body. It is made up of all those who believe that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah, that he died for their sins and came back to life again.

Jesus said he would build a church, that it is the light of the world. That to me sounds like the church as a whole cannot fall into error.

I think it's a fascinating topic. If we want to talk about it much more, I recommend we move to a different section.

The Lord bless you and keep you.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums