An important issue...

[Blackness]

Now today I got a PM saying that he or she is thanking me and how since there is no hell, they have sinned and felt so free ect... now I am taking these PMs as sarcasm, but I think there is an issue that should be discussed, that since people hear some of the strong arguments Universalist have that we all will get saved, might confuse some. Some might see this as an excuse to sin, any thoughts on this?

 

[HomeBound]

We are still bound to the commandments "thou shalt love... " I'd hate to think of the consequences of not following them. (it may not be eternal, but I'm sure it would still hurt)

And there WILL be punishments, and I don't know about anyone else, but even a loving punishment from God may be unbearable to me.

 

[Blackness]

We are still bound to the commandments "thou shalt love... " I'd hate to think of the consequences of not following them. (it may not be eternal, but I'm sure it would still hurt)

And there WILL be punishments, and I don't know about anyone else, but even a loving punishment from God may be unbearable to me.

Indeed. But I do not think people should be using this belief to do as they please, how ever I sin all the time, I do understand that it is wrong.

 

[ChasClean]

Universalist have that we all will get saved, might confuse some. Some might see this as an excuse to sin, any thoughts on this?

Another good, thoughtful question, Ilove.


This question is so common, it is scary. As no other question, it shows the depth of spiritual deception that is over the church.

I know you will receive some good answers on this. Here is mine:

You know what stands out the most with this question? It reveals that they think sin is something they wish they could do, if only they could get away with it.


I think the Prodigal Son is a great example.

Was it the fear of eternal torment that caused him to come to his senses and repent and want to be with his father again? No.

It was a messed up life, here and now. What we reap,we sow, in this life. His life got so messed up by rebelling against godly principles, that it got his attention and he turned around.

God doesn't need eternal torment to keep us straight.

OK, let's say because I know am going to heaven, I decide to test grace and see what I can get away with.

What happens. God will discipline me, because He loves me. His discipline is perfect. It can be severe. It will accomplish what He wants it to. That is to bring me to my senses.

[FONT=&quot] Do people really need the threat of eternal torment not to sin?

How about these consequences:

1. THE REAL SERIOUS DISCIPLINE OF GOD IN THIS LIFE.

2. SOWING WHAT YOU REAP IN THIS LIFE.

3. RUINING YOUR LIFE IN THIS LIFE.

4. LOSING YOUR REPUTATION IN THIS LIFE

5. LOSING YOUR FAMILY IN THIS LIFE

6. LOSING YOUR FRIENDS IN THIS LIFE

7. LOSING YOUR HEALTH IN THIS LIFE

8. LOSING YOUR CLEAN CONSCIENCE IN THIS LIFE

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There's much more to cover on this. But I'll let some others have their say.






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[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Paul addresses this issue briefly but concisely:
[bible]Romans 6:1-2[/bible]
Even though Reconciliation Awareness embraces the hope of the Gospel that through Christ, God has reconciled all to Himself, there is still the matter of whether the individual has received these glad tidings or not. There is still a temporal state of "saved" vs. "lost", with "saved" being those of us who joyfully receive this message and respond to the love of God from our hearts, and "lost" being the current (but NOT eternal) state of those who have yet to receive the peace with God which is available to all.

Receiving the blessed hope in Christ involves transformation by His Spirit. This transformation gives us a heart after God's heart, a mind after the mind of Christ distinct from our carnal/natural minds (which are at enmity with God by nature because of sin) which brings us into agreement with God concerning the nature of sin, that it is what brings death and misery and that we desire to be cleansed of it and to see IT (not people infected with it) destroyed.

Repentance is a gift from God, evidence that His Spirit is alive and at work in our hearts, bringing us to this change of heart, mind & attitude, whereby we no longer want to continue in sin but to walk in the Spirit and live the kind of radical love Jesus lived in His life. Receiving Him changes us. Anyone who claims to have received the hope of the Gospel but then says he shall go on to sin all he pleases, since it "doesn't matter", has clearly evidenced, by such statements, that he has not actually received either the hope of the Gospel OR the Spirit of Christ.

Israel, I would be inclined to perceive those PMs as sarcastic, too. They sound like they are intended to "pull your leg" or "yank your chain" and manipulate you into thinking this kind of thing is the fruit of believing the Gospel, the Good News that God in Christ has reconciled us all to Himself (and did so completely BEFORE we even receive Christ, though as I've pointed out here and elsewhere, this does not actively and presently change US until WE receive Christ in response to this). You must realize that the hatred against God's truth is extremely fierce and can, and will, manifest even through people who claim they are saved, chosen, whatever, according to their understanding thereof. There are also many who sincerely and truly believe the Reconciliation to be heresy and that it is their duty to God to stamp it out and/or seek to discredit it at every turn. It can be very hard to look past those behaviors and see the heart of a brother but we must do our utmost in the Spirit to not become elitists or separatists with our faith, which is contrary to that faith, but simply to recognize we are all at different places in understanding the whole mystery of God, and humbly admit even our own understanding to be incomplete even as we reach out to benefit others with the fruit of what we have been blessed to grasp, this precious hope in Christ. Like the blessed first martyr, Stephen, we must look past the hands that cast stones, and the Sauls that hold their coats for them, up into heaven and in sincere emulation of our Lord, make this our prayer, "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge" that we may have the privilege of revealing the heart, mind and spirit of Jesus Christ in our mortal bodies for their sakes.

I will sign off with the charge of 1 Timothy 4:12:
[bible]1 Timothy 4:12[/bible]
Clearly, unless the author of the PM is truly deceived concerning his current relationship with God, someone is despising your youth by thinking you would fall for this kind of manipulative ruse. Stay strong and do not be discouraged. Rather, be the example Jesus shining in you would lead you to be.

Courage.
Moriah

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I do find, however, that ditching poisonous soteriologies and embracing the Really Good News helps a great deal when it comes to not beating ourselves up for not being perfect. I think we should care about it when we sin or err, and not justify self or act like it doesn't matter, but at the same time it's far worse if after we mess up we wallow in guilt and shame and beat ourselves up over it. Hating ourselves and beating ourselves up is NOT going to make us behave better. If heaping on punishment worked to "fix" us and make us "obey" and "behave", then forgiveness would not be necessary. Think about it! God never intends that we drill ourselves into the ground and eat dirt over every mistake we make. It's enough to say we are sorry, and mean it, and agree with God that sin is sin and wrong is wrong and ask Him for cleansing from it. We may go to God with CONFIDENCE (not arrogance -- and not timidity -- but confidence, in Him) that He will forgive us, and ask and receive and believe His forgiveness. Then we are to pick ourselves up and pick up that Cross again and get moving. Walking in the Spirit is the only sin-free zone I've ever found, and we sure aren't going to find that by wallowing in the flesh or beating ourselves up.

 

[français]

no one who has sinned badly will go un punished.

although i believe that hell is eternal, i also believe in purgatory because of several verses that can lead the the belief.. one reason is because of matthew 5..

25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

the "judge" being mentioned here is the devil, and we know this because the same word is used in 1 peter. i, as a catholic believe this is purgatory, which is temporary.

some universalists who believe in hell but not as eternal could use this verse to justify that hell isn't eternal. but i think it's more of a purgatory. and i think universalists should at least believe in purgatory or some sort of thing like it because of this verse.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

KJF, most of us who believe in ultimate reconciliation of all do, in fact, believe that God does not leave the guilty unpunished. But we see punishment from God the way we see it from a loving Father: as redemptive in nature, and temporary, not as an eternal end in itself for personal gratification in making another suffer.

 

[kept]

You know what I find so interesting

is Ive yet to meet ONE universalist that is not in a serious love relationship with God. Ive not met one
that was living a more sinful life than before they accepted the all inclusive love of God in their lives.

Im sure there could be some that might indeed accept this message so they feel they have a license to sin but Ive yet to meet one.

kept

 

[HomeBound]

KJF, most of us who believe in ultimate reconciliation of all do, in fact, believe that God does not leave the guilty unpunished. But we see punishment from God the way we see it from a loving Father: as redemptive in nature, and temporary, not as an eternal end in itself for personal gratification in making another suffer.

Exactly...
I find it hard to do something against a loving Father. Because even the slightest slap on the wrist from someone so loving would hurt

But I have met many "eternal hellfire" believers who do anything they want, not caring who they hurt, because all they have to do is invoke the name of Jesus, believing there is no consequence for hurting others.

 

[gort]

Exactly...
I find it hard to do something against a loving Father. Because even the slightest slap on the wrist from someone so loving would hurt

But I have met many "eternal hellfire" believers who do anything they want, not caring who they hurt, because all they have to do is invoke the name of Jesus, believing there is no consequence for hurting others.

Name some, back up your claims.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

You know what I find so interesting

is Ive yet to meet ONE universalist that is not in a serious love relationship with God. Ive not met one
that was living a more sinful life than before they accepted the all inclusive love of God in their lives.

I agree, Kept. I would also add many of us are living far more guilt-free and fear-free lives than ever before precisely because we feel secure in the Father's love so that when we DO make mistakes or in the event we falter in our walk, instead of wallowing in a suffocating and choking guilt, we know to go to our Father immediately and receive pardon and get on with our lives. WE KNOW we do not HAVE to carry our own sin loads or manage our own sin loads. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there IS Liberty. I would even venture to say liberty to sin all we want -- with the understanding, of course, that having tasted love and liberty, the FACT is that we DO NOT WANT to sin AT ALL!!!!! That to me is the difference between real grace through faith and what I call "grace-based works" or "grace-based legalism". It is no longer a question of whether we are "free to sin if we want" or NOT because in Christ we simply do not WANT to sin--so even IF Father gave us liberty to "sin all we want" (which I'm not saying is necessarily the case just speaking theoretically) the ISSUE would be dealt with because the SPIRIT OF GOD changes our hearts to where we no longer want to sin. And THAT is where the REAL focus ought to be: the heart change.

Im sure there could be some that might indeed accept this message so they feel they have a license to sin but Ive yet to meet one.

It's a popular tactic of detractors to pose "as if" accepting the reconciliation awareness and then pretend that is how they interpret it -- or to offer that scenario as an argument. It's just another pointless red herring in my opinion.

 

[kept]

Yep Moriah

When HE lives in your spirit you do not desire the things of the flesh to rule in your life any longer no matter how fun they are, how free you might be to do them and I would say

IF you accept a doctrine of ur to have a license to sin you are on a very slippery slope and will end up with a seared conscience

not a good way to go

I would urge anyone even looking into ur search it out diligently, do your homework and wait on God to witness anything by the Spirit in you, dont get ahead of God

kept

 

[HomeBound]

Name some, back up your claims.

Are you serious? I was talking about people I know from my old church, but just watch TBN. You'll see em.

 

[gort]

Are you serious? I was talking about people I know from my old church, but just watch TBN. You'll see em.

Yes, I'm serious. If you're going to make claims then you need to back them up. Otherwise, you're using the logical fallacy of poisoning the well. Just telling me to "watch TBN and I'll see 'em" or that you were "talking about people from your old church" still does'nt make your claims valid.

Or maybe you're just gossiping?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Gort, CF has rules against naming people outright -- which I believe extends to non-members as well as members -- because it is a violation of their privacy. And sharing a personal subjective experience anecdotally is not the same as "poisoning the well" as a debate tactic.

If we are going to invoke logical fallacies we need to be sure we are applying them correctly to situations. I do not see this as a correct application of the poisoned well fallacy.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm concerned that your post could be perceived as a form of baiting. If HomeBound were to name specific persons or groups, this could put him in violation of a couple different rules at once. I certainly would hate to think you intended to try to trick him into breaking the rules to satisfy the informal demands of your post in this conversation. Surely this is not your intention?

 

[HomeBound]

Yes, I'm serious. If you're going to make claims then you need to back them up. Otherwise, you're using the logical fallacy of poisoning the well. Just telling me to "watch TBN and I'll see 'em" or that you were "talking about people from your old church" still does'nt make your claims valid.

Or maybe you're just gossiping?

Strike my claims from the records. Now that I think about it, it wasn't a very nice statement anyway.
I'm learning.

 

[gort]

Gort, CF has rules against naming people outright -- which I believe extends to non-members as well as members -- because it is a violation of their privacy. And sharing a personal subjective experience anecdotally is not the same as "poisoning the well" as a debate tactic.

If we are going to invoke logical fallacies we need to be sure we are applying them correctly to situations. I do not see this as a correct application of the poisoned well fallacy.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I'm concerned that your post could be perceived as a form of baiting. If HomeBound were to name specific persons or groups, this could put him in violation of a couple different rules at once. I certainly would hate to think you intended to try to trick him into breaking the rules to satisfy the informal demands of your post in this conversation. Surely this is not your intention?

Yes, you are wrong, nor was it my intention, nor was I baiting as there are no rules against baiting. There are no rules against naming people outright if the allegations are true and verifiable.

My requests for verification was legit. Someone wants to point out a perceived, subjective fact needs to back it up. A clear example would be where some will claim that Constantine institued pagan rituals into christianity. There is no evidence for this whatsoever.

And, imo, this was a case of logical fallacy, poisoning the well. Had names been mentioned and verifications made, the members case would have been made, the allegations true.

 

[gort]

Strike my claims from the records. Now that I think about it, it wasn't a very nice statement anyway.
I'm learning.

Thank you. We're all learning.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I see.