An important issue...

[Blackness]

So, you're not a universalist?

Trust me, God loves you too much to send you to hell.

Let me share with you a little story, copy/pasted from a sermon I read.

There’s an old story about the great early nineteenth century Universalist preacher and theologian Hosea Ballou. I don’t know if it’s factual or apocryphal, but that is of little consequence: it beautifully illustrates a core principle of the theology of universal salvation.

Imagine that Ballou has just finished leading a worship service when a man approaches him. “Brother Ballou, I hope you can help me,” the man says. “I’m gravely concerned about my twenty-year-old son. I tried to raise him with good principles, but he spends most of his nights carousing in the tavern will all kinds of unsavory characters. I’m afraid he’s on the road to Hell.” Ballou is thoughtful for a moment, and then he replies hopefully, “Well, brother, I think I can indeed help you. You and I should go tonight to the neighborhood in which this tavern is located, and outside the door of the tavern we shall build a huge, roaring bonfire. There let us lie in wait, and when your son emerges from the place, we shall seize him and fling him into the flames.” The man is aghast. “Are you mad?” he protests in horror. “I could never do such a thing to my own child!” And Ballou answers, “My dear brother, God couldn’t either.”

Its a very good story, and it could be an example many of us could use, but as I said I have doubts on the whole hell thing lol, just part of all the OCD and anxiety. But anyway...

 

[gort]

So your saying its because of our beliefs that people will keep sinning? I think if someone is not a Universalist, they should not use our beliefs to do as they please. I am not saying we do that, but I think non Universalist should not do such things with our beliefs.

No, I'm not saying what you try to portray. When one (an unsaved soul) is confronted with the portrait of universalism, ultimate reconciliation, the sin nature will opt for the easy path, to continue in sin, payment later to be rendered.


Do a study of enablement, enabling....

 

[gort]

Charlie V quotes:

Then why do they create the false argument that universalists have nothing to keep them from sinning?

non-sequitur.

I stated the non universalist has a greater sorrow than the fear of hell to keep him from sinning. Therefore not a false arguement.

That's the false argument. The exact opposite of what you've just said is true.

Whether or not the non-universalist realizes it, the message of universal reconciliation is not one of enablement for the sinner. No one is convinced of ultimate reconciliation without also being convinced of the sad realities that temporal sin cause us here on Earth, and no one understands and accepts universal reconciliation without also being compassionate and loving of the word of Christ, and in that compassion, driven to kindness, and not to sin.

~snip~

again, non- sequitur. The POV is from the one (unsaved soul) who listens to the universalist and his message of ultimate reconciliation. Not the POV of the universalist who takes the stance of play now and pay later.

 

[kept]

This is what is always sited by those whom dont believe in ur

that ur gives folks a license to sin

Now I want some proof

go round up the ur folks that are out sinning and having so much fun cause they are gonna get to go to heaven anyways

I still have not met one

but you go for it - I dont think it is fair that you ask others for names while you insinute there are folks out there and you dont provide what you ask for

at least do what you ask others to do Gort

I will be glad to give you links where you can go ask all the ur folks if their sin lives are out of control

I would love for once this accusation to be settled

I would challange anyone studying CHRISTian universalism to look at the lives of the believers of ur

Here are a few:

William Barclay
George MacDonald
Andrew Jukes
Hannah Whitall Smith
and here is a list of many more to research to spy out their liberty since that seems to be so important to non ur folks

http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html

then be sure and get back to us and let us know how much sin in their lives that you spied out that is so much more than your own lives as believers in et

kept

 

[gort]

This is what is always sited by those whom dont believe in ur

that ur gives folks a license to sin

Now I want some proof

go round up the ur folks that are out sinning and having so much fun cause they are gonna get to go to heaven anyways

I still have not met one

but you go for it - I dont think it is fair that you ask others for names while you insinute there are folks out there and you dont provide what you ask for

at least do what you ask others to do Gort

I will be glad to give you links where you can go ask all the ur folks if their sin lives are out of control

I would love for once this accusation to be settled

I would challange anyone studying CHRISTian universalism to look at the lives of the believers of ur

Here are a few:

William Barclay
George MacDonald
Andrew Jukes
Hannah Whitall Smith
and here is a list of many more to research to spy out their liberty since that seems to be so important to non ur folks

http://www.tentmaker.org/tracts/Universalists.html

then be sure and get back to us and let us know how much sin in their lives that you spied out that is so much more than your own lives as believers in et

kept

Please read my posts for what they say, and not what you seem to portray them as. I've made no allegations whatsoever that universalists themselves sin now and pay later. I think I've mentioned unsaved souls several times. I don't consider universalists to be unsaved souls.

 

[kept]

Gort

ok thank you for clearing that one up about ur folks and thank you for recognizing we are christians.

As to unsaved folks......are you then saying that the threat of eternal torment in hell keeps unsaved folks from sinning?

I would love to see some statistics on that one.

I bet if you went into any prison in america and asked them if they believe there is a hell the majority would say yes.

kept

 

[Charlie V]

non-sequitur.

I stated the non universalist has a greater sorrow than the fear of hell to keep him from sinning. Therefore not a false arguement.

It is a false argument. A non-universalist having greater sorrow than the fear of hell to keep him from sinning does not make the argument less false.

again, non- sequitur. The POV is from the one (unsaved soul) who listens to the universalist and his message of ultimate reconciliation. Not the POV of the universalist who takes the stance of play now and pay later.

1. There is no such thing as an "unsaved soul." Christ saved the world.

2. You seem to be speaking, not of universalists, but of unbelivers. If you are speaking of unbelievers, the argument is non-sequitur because unbelievers believe in neither heaven nor hell, and do not believe in universalism.

Furthermore, nonbelievers also have morality and choose not to sin for the same reason universalists and nonuniversalist Christians choose not to sin.

Sometimes people do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. Sometimes people choose the wrong things -- universalists, non-universalists, nonbelievers.

Universalism will not motivate anyone to sin.

3. There is no such thing as "play now and pay later" in this context. That is a straw man.

 

[gort]

Gort

ok thank you for clearing that one up about ur folks and thank you for recognizing we are christians.

As to unsaved folks......are you then saying that the threat of eternal torment in hell keeps unsaved folks from sinning?

I would love to see some statistics on that one.

I bet if you went into any prison in america and asked them if they believe there is a hell the majority would say yes.

kept

No, I'm afraid that even the eternal threat of the Lake of Fire is still not a deterrent from sin.

Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire, therefore torment in hell is a misnomer.

Call me pedantric...

 

[gort]

Charlie V quotes:

1. There is no such thing as an "unsaved soul." Christ saved the world.

Ok, then there is no need to preach the gospel.

But then Jesus did say to go into the world and preach the good news, did'nt he?

So I think that there are lost souls out there, would'nt you agree?

2. You seem to be speaking, not of universalists, but of unbelivers. If you are speaking of unbelievers, the argument is non-sequitur because unbelievers believe in neither heaven nor hell, and do not believe in universalism.

If there are no unsaved souls, there are no unbelievers.

 

[ChasClean]

Please read my posts for what they say, and not what you seem to portray them as. I've made no allegations whatsoever that universalists themselves sin now and pay later. I think I've mentioned unsaved souls several times. I don't consider universalists to be unsaved souls.

My post #35 talks about the unsaved souls. Please respond when you can.

 

[Charlie V]

Ok, then there is no need to preach the gospel..

Wrong, there are quite a number of reasons to preach the gospel. Not the least of which is so that, here and now, on this Earth, we may have the Holy Spirit in our hearts.

But then Jesus did say to go into the world and preach the good news, did'nt he?

Of course! That's what I do every time I preach universalism.

So I think that there are lost souls out there, would'nt you agree?

That depends on your definition of "lost."
Eternally lost? Certainly not.

There are some folks who are lost in the sense that, they're driving down the Parkway trying to find their way to 195 South and they missed their turn off a few miles back. Literally.

Charlie

If there are no unsaved souls, there are no unbelievers.

If there are unsaved souls, Christ failed in His mission as the savior of the world.

By the way -- there's nothing but unbelievers. Including you and me.

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.





Charlie

 

[gort]

Chasclean posts:

Do you think only Christians have a guilty conscience. Do you think only Christians are miserable when they sin? We all know there are millions of non Christians who desire deliverance from sin and it's effects. They don't consider sinning to be Playing. They want to be saved.

Of course many have a guilty conscience. Do you know where that guilty conscience comes from? Many do want to be saved, and if they ask, they will be saved. Want Scripture?

However, many don't want to be saved or come to the Light. Want Scripture?

Here is a direct question: How would the fact that God is so wonderful that He is willing and able to save anyone, have any affect on whether or not someone wants to get saved from the misery they are experiencing due to sin and it's effects?

There is no arguement from my end that God is willing that some should perish.

The misery of sin can have the effect of calling out to God and asking for deliverance.

There are biblical examples to show that sometimes a direct intervention is required. Take Paul for instance. Had he not been confronted on the road to Damascus, he may have not ever converted.

Take Judas for instance, who lived with Jesus for a few years and still betryed Him. It was the choice of Judas. Yet it was also written in the Scriptures which might be a conundrum for you.

There are those who will call for the mountains to fall on them so they don't have to come to the Light. Apparantly, these love the darkness more than the Light. Are they those that cry out for salvation? no.

What about those that take the number of the beast? Ask yourself, just how well known is this in the world today even by those who are non-christians? Yet, Scripture tells us that there will be those that take the number; a direct defiance of God.

If I can find it, there's a website that invites those to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, again, in defiance of God. There are video recordings of people doing this.

Are these crying out for salvation?