An idol problem.

[Neostarwcc]

So as many of you know my last living grandparent passed away in Janurary. My grandfather has a crucifix of Jesus hanging on a cross that my mother wants to give me as a gift. I'm Presbyterian and it's a big no no to hang up idols so I'm a little conflicted as to whether or not accept her gift. I'm considering discussing this with my Elder but I don't really want to bother him with such a trivial matter. I've shared my concerns with my mother and she doesn't get it because she's Catholic and doesn't see it as an idol as her parents were catholic and didn't see it as an idol either. She also brought up how my dad's father was also Protestant yet kept idols in the house and I tried explaining to her that he was a different denomination and not all Protestant denominations were against idols. Just mine is because it is one of the ten commandments and it is in the bible not to have idols. I mean I feel deeply conflicted. I want it because it symbolizes what my Savior did for me on the cross not because it's particularly an idol but I also want it because it belonged to my grandfather and I don't have anything of my grandfather's to remember him by. Maybe I will contact my Elder about this and see what he has to say. I mean, If I keep it around and don't keep it on display like I keep the $10 bill that my other grandfather left to me when he passed away and keep it as a remembrance there's probably nothing wrong with it. But if I keep it as an idol, I don't know... I need some biblical advice on this and I think I'll shoot my Elder and email on this.

 

[Valletta]

So as many of you know my last living grandparent passed away in Janurary. My grandfather has a crucifix of Jesus hanging on a cross that my mother wants to give me as a gift. I'm Presbyterian and it's a big no no to hang up idols so I'm a little conflicted as to whether or not accept her gift. I'm considering discussing this with my Elder but I don't really want to bother him with such a trivial matter. I've shared my concerns with my mother and she doesn't get it because she's Catholic and doesn't see it as an idol as her parents were catholic and didn't see it as an idol either. She also brought up how my dad's father was also Protestant yet kept idols in the house and I tried explaining to her that he was a different denomination and not all Protestant denominations were against idols. Just mine is because it is one of the ten commandments and it is in the bible not to have idols. I mean I feel deeply conflicted. I want it because it symbolizes what my Savior did for me on the cross not because it's particularly an idol but I also want it because it belonged to my grandfather and I don't have anything of my grandfather's to remember him by. Maybe I will contact my Elder about this and see what he has to say. I mean, If I keep it around and don't keep it on display like I keep the $10 bill that my other grandfather left to me when he passed away and keep it as a remembrance there's probably nothing wrong with it. But if I keep it as an idol, I don't know... I need some biblical advice on this and I think I'll shoot my Elder and email on this.

You could accept it and box it up.

 

[Neostarwcc]

You could accept it and box it up.

Yeah that's what I was thinking and keep it as a momento that belonged to my grandfather like i have the currency that my other grandfather left me when he passed away. He was Catholic so he saw nothing wrong with keeping the crucifix and hanging it on the wall but...idk if I would feel right doing that. My mom wouldn't understand and I don't want to upset her but she's got to respect my religious beliefs too as I respect hers were both Christians even though we're both different denominations. I can't always keep her happy though. She would be happy if I stayed catholic but i never grew up sharing her faith. She's lucky I grew into faith in Christ at all so she should be happy that I eventually came to faith at all.

 

[Richard T]

You have to go with your own conscience. I have no Catholic background but I have no problem with hanging a cross. It is not an idol, it is a symbol to me. Perhaps your conscience will strengthen to where you can see it that way and not be enveloped by seeing it as an idol? Again, though you have to do what your own faith says so as to not stumble.

 

[chevyontheriver]

So as many of you know my last living grandparent passed away in Janurary. My grandfather has a crucifix of Jesus hanging on a cross that my mother wants to give me as a gift. I'm Presbyterian and it's a big no no to hang up idols so I'm a little conflicted as to whether or not accept her gift. I'm considering discussing this with my Elder but I don't really want to bother him with such a trivial matter. I've shared my concerns with my mother and she doesn't get it because she's Catholic and doesn't see it as an idol as her parents were catholic and didn't see it as an idol either. She also brought up how my dad's father was also Protestant yet kept idols in the house and I tried explaining to her that he was a different denomination and not all Protestant denominations were against idols. Just mine is because it is one of the ten commandments and it is in the bible not to have idols. I mean I feel deeply conflicted. I want it because it symbolizes what my Savior did for me on the cross not because it's particularly an idol but I also want it because it belonged to my grandfather and I don't have anything of my grandfather's to remember him by. Maybe I will contact my Elder about this and see what he has to say. I mean, If I keep it around and don't keep it on display like I keep the $10 bill that my other grandfather left to me when he passed away and keep it as a remembrance there's probably nothing wrong with it. But if I keep it as an idol, I don't know... I need some biblical advice on this and I think I'll shoot my Elder and email on this.

Smash every idol. Seriously.

That said, a crucifix is not an idol. It reminds you that we preach Christ, and him crucified. Jesus did suffer and die for us. What is depicted on a crucifix IS that very Biblical message, that we are healed by the passion and death of Jesus. A crucifix has no magical powers but it is a reminder of that bloody sacrifice paid for your sins and mine. Keep it and be thankful that your grandfather had that part of the Gospel before him.

I could go more deeply in to the reason that crucifixes or icons are NOT idols, if you need. It is partially that we are under a new dispensation with Jesus and partly a better understanding of the OT distinction between idols and allowed images.

So, smash idols and keep the crucifix. It is not an idol.

 

[seeking.IAM]

An idol is something you worship. I suggest you accept it, hang it, and don't worship it.

 

[BobRyan]

So as many of you know my last living grandparent passed away in Janurary. My grandfather has a crucifix of Jesus hanging on a cross that my mother wants to give me as a gift. I'm Presbyterian and it's a big no no to hang up idols so I'm a little conflicted as to whether or not accept her gift. I'm considering discussing this with my Elder but I don't really want to bother him with such a trivial matter. I've shared my concerns with my mother and she doesn't get it because she's Catholic and doesn't see it as an idol as her parents were catholic and didn't see it as an idol either. She also brought up how my dad's father was also Protestant yet kept idols in the house and I tried explaining to her that he was a different denomination and not all Protestant denominations were against idols. Just mine is because it is one of the ten commandments and it is in the bible not to have idols. I mean I feel deeply conflicted. I want it because it symbolizes what my Savior did for me on the cross not because it's particularly an idol but I also want it because it belonged to my grandfather and I don't have anything of my grandfather's to remember him by. Maybe I will contact my Elder about this and see what he has to say. I mean, If I keep it around and don't keep it on display like I keep the $10 bill that my other grandfather left to me when he passed away and keep it as a remembrance there's probably nothing wrong with it. But if I keep it as an idol, I don't know... I need some biblical advice on this and I think I'll shoot my Elder and email on this.

"what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints keep the commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

The Bible has many texts in favor of keeping God's commandments.

Now lets read from the TEN. As a Presbyterian you know that the first four commandments deal with man's duty to God.

1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.

8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.


Notice the third commandment --

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God (NASB)

5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God,..., (NKJV)

As almost all Hindus will tell you - when they bow down to idols they are not bowing to the stone or worshiping the the stone , but rather the one that is represented by it. Clearly that is still the worship of idols, worship of false gods.

So consider this -- do you bow down before that 10 dollar bill of your grandfather? Do you offer to serve or worship it or the one it reminds you of ?

I suspect you do not do that.

Even in the case of the cross/crucifix you are not praying to it nor even the original wooden cross on which Jesus died. Rather you are praying to God and as a Presbyterian you probably don't even do that while bowing before the crucifix in your home.

 

[Neostarwcc]

So my Elder said that a crucifix could be considered an idol depending on how a person views it. If they view it as a symbol of a private possession like I want it for than there's nothing wrong with displaying it. But if they view it as a symbol of God it could be considered an idol because it's an image of God and nobody can make an image of God that accurately portrays what God really looks like thats why God prohibited idols. However since I want to hang it up as a symbol of one of my grandfather's possessions to remember my grandfather and not what Jesus did its technically not an idol. It depends where our heart is when we look at and view the item.

I'm interested to hearing everyone else's opinions on the matter though. I know we have Catholics on this forum so I'm interested in hearing their opinions on the subject.

 

[chevyontheriver]

So my Elder said that a crucifix could be considered an idol depending on how a person views it.

Pretty much true. If you think you can make a deity do things by having an idol and praying to it then it is indeed an idol. Smash those. If you have it as a piece in a museum as an informative object I could see that. I draw the analogy to books. I have some heretical books in my possession. I keep them not to absorb their teaching but as examples of bad theology so as to learn what to avoid.

If they view it as a symbol of a private possession like I want it for than there's nothing wrong with displaying it.

I would think that would be wrong because it would be the keeping of what you think is an idol, sort of remembering your grandfather's idol. I would, again, smash my grandfather's idol, if it were given to me. Happily my grandfather had no idols that I knew of.

But if they view it as a symbol of God it could be considered an idol because it's an image of God and nobody can make an image of God that accurately portrays what God really looks like thats why God prohibited idols.

That changed with the coming of Jesus Christ, who has been seen. He was a human being that could be represented as a human being. We cannot represent the Father but we can represent the Incarnate Son.

However since I want to hang it up as a symbol of one of my grandfather's possessions to remember my grandfather and not what Jesus did its technically not an idol. It depends where our heart is when we look at and view the item.

If you look at that crucifix and deliberately try not to think of what Jesus did then you are made of sterner stuff than I am made of. I look at a crucifix and think of Jesus, nailed to the cross, struggling for breath, crowned with thorns, blood dripping from his wounds, sweat and blood stinging his eyes, all the physical agony. It's not pretty and it's not supposed to be. It's supposed to evoke contemplation on the merits of Jesus and how he really did die for me. How in a manner of speaking I put Jesus on the cross.

I'm interested to hearing everyone else's opinions on the matter though. I know we have Catholics on this forum so I'm interested in hearing their opinions on the subject.

I know you are currently in a Calvinist congregation. And they are iconoclasts. But the tradition of using icons has a good basis for it. Don't be too hasty to call a crucifix an idol. Even if your particular tradition leans that way.

John of Damascus and His Defense of Icons - Christian Research Institute

www.equip.org

An interesting read by the last great Church Father in the 700's AD. Turns out Iconoclasm has it's roots in Islam more than anything. Maybe more later.

 

[Aaron112]

So as many of you know my last living grandparent passed away in Janurary. My grandfather has a crucifix of Jesus hanging on a cross that my mother wants to give me as a gift. I'm Presbyterian and it's a big no no to hang up idols so I'm a little conflicted as to whether or not accept her gift.

If you end up with a known idol, destroy it.

web search: "From a Christian perspective, the Bible also emphasizes the importance of destroying idols. It encourages the removal of altars and idols and the breaking of false images to return to a pure relationship with God."

 

[BPPLEE]

So as many of you know my last living grandparent passed away in Janurary. My grandfather has a crucifix of Jesus hanging on a cross that my mother wants to give me as a gift. I'm Presbyterian and it's a big no no to hang up idols so I'm a little conflicted as to whether or not accept her gift. I'm considering discussing this with my Elder but I don't really want to bother him with such a trivial matter. I've shared my concerns with my mother and she doesn't get it because she's Catholic and doesn't see it as an idol as her parents were catholic and didn't see it as an idol either. She also brought up how my dad's father was also Protestant yet kept idols in the house and I tried explaining to her that he was a different denomination and not all Protestant denominations were against idols. Just mine is because it is one of the ten commandments and it is in the bible not to have idols. I mean I feel deeply conflicted. I want it because it symbolizes what my Savior did for me on the cross not because it's particularly an idol but I also want it because it belonged to my grandfather and I don't have anything of my grandfather's to remember him by. Maybe I will contact my Elder about this and see what he has to say. I mean, If I keep it around and don't keep it on display like I keep the $10 bill that my other grandfather left to me when he passed away and keep it as a remembrance there's probably nothing wrong with it. But if I keep it as an idol, I don't know... I need some biblical advice on this and I think I'll shoot my Elder and email on this.

As long as you don’t bow down and worship it it’s not an idol and you have nothing to worry about

 

[Aaron112]

"Having an Idol in the House Brings Curse
According to religious and spiritual beliefs, having an idol in your house can bring a curse. In the context of idolatry, which is considered a sin of rebellion against God, the presence of idols is seen as an affront to God's sovereignty and can lead to divine punishment in the form of curses. These curses can include humiliation, failure to reproduce, mental and physical illness, family breakdown, alienation of children, poverty, defeat, oppression, and God's disfavor.12
Religious texts such as Deuteronomy warn against the practice of idolatry and the consequences of not obeying God's commandments. The curses from disobedience mentioned in Deuteronomy 28:15-61 are severe and can affect both the saved and unsaved until they are broken through repentance.1
In some interpretations, idols are not just symbolic but can be considered as objects that bring darkness and depression into a home, leading to spiritual and physical harm.2
It is advised to avoid bringing idols into your house as they are considered abominations and can lead to being cursed like the object itself."

 

[Aaron112]

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The person who makes a carved idol or cast image, which is detestable to the LORD, the work of a craftsman, and sets it up in secret is cursed.’ And all the people will reply, ‘Amen!’

(even if done in secret, it brings a curse.
how much more if done openly!) a curse.

Amplified Bible
‘Cursed is the man who makes a carved or cast image (idol), a repulsive thing to the LORD, the work of the hands of the artisan, and sets it up in secret.’ All the people shall answer and say, ‘Amen.’

 

[Valletta]

My suggest, again, was to honor his mother, accept the gift, and box it up. He expressed misgivings about the crucifix being an idol, maybe those misgivings will go away one day, maybe not.

 

[NBB]

i believe you can wear a cross or have it in your house, is a christian symbol, i don't believe churches for example are in idolatry because they have a cross somewhere, what i don't like is if they have a representation of Jesus crucified, he resurrected already. Just my opinion

 

[Valletta]

i believe you can wear a cross or have it in your house, is a christian symbol, i don't believe churches for example are in idolatry because they have a cross somewhere, what i don't like is if they have a representation of Jesus crucified, he resurrected already. Just my opinion

Like the Nativity scene, and most paintings, the crucifix captures a moment in time. In this case it helps all to remember that Jesus died for our sins. In the Nativity scene I assure you that those viewing such do not believe Jesus is an infant today. A plain cross was first a pagan symbol, and that does not make it evil in any way. If a cross or crucifix helps a Christian as a reminder then in my opinion that is good.

 

[chevyontheriver]

i believe you can wear a cross or have it in your house, is a christian symbol, i don't believe churches for example are in idolatry because they have a cross somewhere, what i don't like is if they have a representation of Jesus crucified, he resurrected already. Just my opinion

The OP is asking about a crucifix, not a cross.

 

[NBB]

Like the Nativity scene, and most paintings, the crucifix captures a moment in time. In this case it helps all to remember that Jesus died for our sins. In the Nativity scene I assure you that those viewing such do not believe Jesus is an infant today. A plain cross was first a pagan symbol, and that does not make it evil in any way. If a cross or crucifix helps a Christian as a reminder then in my opinion that is good.

I don't say by having a crucifix, you would not believe he resurrected, it just gives me a bad impression.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Pretty much true. If you think you can make a deity do things by having an idol and praying to it then it is indeed an idol. Smash those. If you have it as a piece in a museum as an informative object I could see that. I draw the analogy to books. I have some heretical books in my possession. I keep them not to absorb their teaching but as examples of bad theology so as to learn what to avoid.

I would think that would be wrong because it would be the keeping of what you think is an idol, sort of remembering your grandfather's idol. I would, again, smash my grandfather's idol, if it were given to me. Happily my grandfather had no idols that I knew of.

That changed with the coming of Jesus Christ, who has been seen. He was a human being that could be represented as a human being. We cannot represent the Father but we can represent the Incarnate Son.

If you look at that crucifix and deliberately try not to think of what Jesus did then you are made of sterner stuff than I am made of. I look at a crucifix and think of Jesus, nailed to the cross, struggling for breath, crowned with thorns, blood dripping from his wounds, sweat and blood stinging his eyes, all the physical agony. It's not pretty and it's not supposed to be. It's supposed to evoke contemplation on the merits of Jesus and how he really did die for me. How in a manner of speaking I put Jesus on the cross.

I know you are currently in a Calvinist congregation. And they are iconoclasts. But the tradition of using icons has a good basis for it. Don't be too hasty to call a crucifix an idol. Even if your particular tradition leans that way.

John of Damascus and His Defense of Icons - Christian Research Institute

www.equip.org

An interesting read by the last great Church Father in the 700's AD. Turns out Iconoclasm has it's roots in Islam more than anything. Maybe more later.

Actually I misunderstood what he said in the email he said there's nothing wrong with keeping it in a box and accepting it because the intention is to keep it as a momento to remember my grandfather and not as a momento for what Jesus did for us. If I kept it as a momento for what Jesus did for us than yes its an idol because it's a graven image of a figure of Jesus Christ and it is not what God looked like when he died on the cross for us. It's impossible to carve an image of God that accurately portrays God's full Glory and God's full image because nobody knows what God truly looks like and nobody can accurately portray him and that's why idols are forbidden.


However he told me later on that he would not hang it on the wall. He said I misunderstood what he said. He said that just because it was not considered an idol that it didn't mean that I should hang it on the wall he thinks I should keep it in a box and hold onto it as a momento to remember my grandparents. Since they did love me and my grandmother did love that I came to christ ever though I didn't come to him as a Catholic. She probably would have left me with a few of her Christian possessions anyway had she thought of it because im the only one of her nine children and 30 grandchildren that ever became Christians. So im probably going to accept it and keep it in a box. It's not going to make my mom happy nor would my grandfather probably would have understood but my grandmother would have and that's all that matters to me. I want it mostly to remember her although, I want it to remember my grandfather as well. But, my grandfather and I didn't get along for most of his life so we weren't the closest together. I just want to remember the few good times I had with my grandfather and not the bad,

 

[chevyontheriver]

However he told me later on that he would not hang it on the wall. He said I misunderstood what he said. He said that just because it was not considered an idol that it didn't mean that I should hang it on the wall he thinks I should keep it in a box and hold onto it as a momento to remember my grandparents. Since they did love me and my grandmother did love that I came to christ ever though I didn't come to him as a Catholic. She probably would have left me with a few of her Christian possessions anyway had she thought of it because im the only one of her nine children and 30 grandchildren that ever became Christians. So im probably going to accept it and keep it in a box. It's not going to make my mom happy nor would my grandfather probably would have understood but my grandmother would have and that's all that matters to me. I want it mostly to remember her although, I want it to remember my grandfather as well. But, my grandfather and I didn't get along for most of his life so we weren't the closest together. I just want to remember the few good times I had with my grandfather and not the bad

I'm glad you have a resolution.

Actually I misunderstood what he said in the email he said there's nothing wrong with keeping it in a box and accepting it because the intention is to keep it as a momento to remember my grandfather and not as a momento for what Jesus did for us. If I kept it as a momento for what Jesus did for us than yes its an idol because it's a graven image of a figure of Jesus Christ and it is not what God looked like when he died on the cross for us. It's impossible to carve an image of God that accurately portrays God's full Glory and God's full image because nobody knows what God truly looks like and nobody can accurately portray him and that's why idols are forbidden.

Yes, except we know Jesus was also fully human, was male, was of Jewish ancestry of the tribe of David, was about 33 years old. So while we cannot carve a precise image of Jesus we can be pretty close. The first icon of Jesus goes back to St. Luke, who may have actually painted what he saw in real life. Just saying we may know some things about what Jesus actually looked like. Then there is the Shroud of Turin as collaboration. It's looking more and more like that was the burial cloth of Jesus.

We can not know what God the Father looks like, but then a crucifix does not portray God the Father. Catholic and Orthodox icons just do not portray the Father. For exactly the reasons you gave. It is impossible to create an image of God the Father. Nobody has seen God the Father. But Jesus makes known to us the Father who is unseen by seeing the incarnate Son. That reference I gave to St. John of Damascus explains how this works if you want to bother. Anyhow that's your call. And don't for a moment think I am promoting idolatry. My very first comment on all of this was that you should smash every real idol. It's just there is a reason a crucifix is not an idol.