An Honest Question

John54 · May 27, 2007

How can you believe in God?

I've been an atheist for many years, and it seems so obvious to me that God is a fiction - but I know intelligent people who do believe. From what they say it appears they do so for emotional, rather than logical, reasons.

So I'm interested in gathering a few thoughts from members of this forum.

What is it that makes you so sure there is a loving, personal God when there seems to be such strong evidence against that concept?

Thanks in advance,

John

BigNorsk · May 27, 2007

Well the number one thing is Jesus. Evidence is that he existed, that he claimed to be God and indeed that he is God.

The rest just kind of flows from that.

Marv

malckiah · May 27, 2007

Hello, i would say that i have noticed there are alot of people who are saying that they need to see Jesus before they will believe in Him.....and i believe that that in a since is realistic and shouldnt be too difficult...although i am not talking about physically seeing Him, but instead seeing Him through His people. The sad thing is that most people who say they are Christians are not....either that or they just don't act like it. But if a Christian is truly living their life as they should....others will be able to see Jesus shining through....kind, gentle, loving, patient, someone who will give their life for another.
Well, i did not choose Christianity, but instead God saved me out of satanism years ago and i have been walking with God since. As far as wether or not God exists and this evidence you speak of that is against God.....well, there is no evidence against Him. All of creation speaks volumes of our God.....And as far as me personally, well....for me, i know God exists because i can feel His presence everyday, so much so that sometimes its almost overwhelming (in a good way!) I know that when i pray He is listening not only because i feel Him but because He answers my prayers, sometimes within minutes! There are times that i am unable to do things, so i pray and ask for His guidance and He shows me the way, even though there is no possible way for me to have known it.
I have seen so many miracles since He came into my life! All i can say is that i know that Jesus is indeed real. I have felt His presence....i have heard His voice.....I can see His work all around and the changes that He makes in me. If you ever decide to fully give your life to Jesus.....you will never be the same again.....for He is Awesome! God Bless!

HypnoToad · May 27, 2007

Try reading "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist" by Geisler & Turek. The "strong evidence" against God isn't really all that strong.

TwilightSol · May 27, 2007

well i dont know what to tell you except that God is part of a trinity, him, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. right ? well there is evidence(seen above) that Jesus exists so if they re all one person so do you think he exists. try read the very first verse of the very first chapter. it states that in the beginning was God so itsnt that enough?

Secundulus · May 27, 2007

My personal evidence is that he answers so many of my prayers. Also, once when my faith was severely failing he spoke to me.

There is no way I can prove this to you and you might call it emotional. Nevertheless, I believe he is real and there is absolutely nothing you can do to convince me otherwise.

I would like to think that I believe as strongly as this girl:

The Tenth Persecution, Under Diocletian, A.D. 303
Eulalia, a Spanish lady of a Christian family, was remarkable in her youth for sweetness of temper, and solidity of understanding seldom found in the capriciousness of juvenile years. Being apprehended as a Christian, the magistrate attempted by the mildest means, to bring her over to paganism, but she ridiculed the pagan deities with such asperity, that the judge, incensed at her behavior, ordered her to be tortured. Her sides were accordingly torn by hooks, and her breasts burnt in the most shocking manner, until she expired by the violence of the flames, December, A.D. 303.

Foxes Book of Martyrs Pasted from <http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/fox102.htm>

Under_His_Shadow · May 27, 2007

What is it that makes you so sure there is a loving, personal God when there seems to be such strong evidence against that concept?

Hi John. It would help to know what you believe the "evidence" is that proves God is not loving or personal ?

The intricacies, Divine order, and obviously God-ordained provisions for mankind in His entire creation and universe all speak, as it were, about God's love and personal concern for us.

Of course the supreme revelation and evidence of God's personal love for us was manifested in His giving Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son, to suffer and die in our place so that we could legally and justly be forgiven and spend all eternity in heaven with Him basking in His love, joy, and eternal purpose for us.

Those are the facts as revealed in the Bible, His Word, and although they inevitably produce emotions such as joy and peace in all who put their trust in Him based on those facts, believing the truth always comes first-then the emotions follow.

Merlin · May 27, 2007

For me, there is more than just feelings
Christianity has been life transforming for me

John54 · May 27, 2007

Thanks to everyone for the responses so far.

Hi John. It would help to know what you believe the "evidence" is that proves God is not loving or personal ?

It's partly the problem of evil, Under His Shadow.

As Epicurus said long ago:

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. . . . If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. . . . If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"

But I also feel that, if there were a God - one who loves humanity, cares for us, intervenes in our lives - the world would be a very different place from the one in which we find ourselves.

John

ignight · May 27, 2007

God gave us a wonderful world to begine with- eden, ( if you dont concider the bible this might not help). It was out choise to let evil in and we did. It is still our choise. If God destroyed evil, he would destroy our choise to choose it (If he had not put the tree in the Garden, Adam and Eve would have had no choise.). But He is a loving God and would rather be praised by moral agents than robots.

ContentInHim · May 27, 2007

John54 said:
Thanks to everyone for the responses so far.

It's partly the problem of evil, Under His Shadow.

As Epicurus said long ago:

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. . . . If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. . . . If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"

But I also feel that, if there were a God - one who loves humanity, cares for us, intervenes in our lives - the world would be a very different place from the one in which we find ourselves.

John

That's great and all, but Epicurius is not God and cannot know God's mind or purposes. God says "my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways not your ways". So I have to discount what any philosopher has to say - though I wouldn't have until I was born-again 6 years ago. Just a difference in perspective.

Evil is a problem in this world, for sure, but once you no longer believe that this life on earth is all there is, it's not that difficult to see how God uses the evil that is in the world to work his purposes. It upsets me to see the evil and I often cry out "Father, how much longer are you going to put up with this", but I know that through horrible trials people are being saved and other people will witness that and be saved also! That's more important!

God is not evil!

aiki · May 27, 2007

As Epicurus said long ago:

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. . . . If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. . . . If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"

Of course, these aren't the only alternatives available to us in understanding the matter of God and the existence of evil. As many authors who have written on the subject indicate, there are other better, more likely reasons why God allows evil to exist. Ultimately, though, we cannot as finite creatures understand fully all of the motives and actions of a Creator who is infinite. After a point our attempts to render what God does with evil in our world understandable run up against our inability to see as God sees.

But I also feel that, if there were a God - one who loves humanity, cares for us, intervenes in our lives - the world would be a very different place from the one in which we find ourselves.

Oh? I should think that if He weren't such a God our world would be a very different, much more awful place. In fact, if God wasn't the loving, caring God that He is, I'd expect He'd have done the lot of us in by now.

Peace to you.

desmalia · May 27, 2007

John54 said:
Thanks to everyone for the responses so far.

It's partly the problem of evil, Under His Shadow.

As Epicurus said long ago:

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. . . . If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. . . . If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"

But I also feel that, if there were a God - one who loves humanity, cares for us, intervenes in our lives - the world would be a very different place from the one in which we find ourselves.

John

Hi John.
If you don't mind my asking... would you mind giving your definition of evil? Thanks.

gracealone · May 27, 2007

It's partly the problem of evil,

The problem of evil implies that there is something better than and other than evil. That would be Good. You cannot define evil without good. Good can stand alone, but evil is just a twisting of or perverting of that which is good.
So where does the idea of good come from? How do you know that something is evil? Where do you get this idea of knowing that one thing is good and another evil. Good implies that there is a moral law. If there is a moral law the there must be a moral law giver. The law giver is God.
The real interesting thing to me about this is how hard it is for we humans to do those good things that we instinctively know,(the law of human nature). There is this constant struggle to do right. We are forever telling ourselves that we really ought to do this or that, or we really shouldn't do this or that and even knowing we should or shouldn't we do the opposite. What is that all about?

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. . . . If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. . . . If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"

God does want to abolish evil as a matter of fact He has, He is and He will, but I think it's best to look at your last comment first.

But I also feel that, if there were a God - one who loves humanity, cares for us, intervenes in our lives - the world would be a very different place from the one in which we find ourselves.

You mean like Eden?
The world we live in is one where each individual has been given, by God, a free will.
God could have created a world of people pre programmed to only choose good, to only choose to love Him, to only choose to obey His commands. But if He did this how could He have a real two way relationship with any one of us. He has limited His power but only so that we could enter into a chosen relationship with Him. ( I like being able to choose don't you?)
CS Lewis said "There are two kinds of people in the world. The ones who say to God 'thy will be done' and the ones to whom God must in the end say' OK then have it your way, thy will be done'. "
If you ask a woman if she loves you does it matter to you that she has the choice to love you or not? Would you rather have her pre programmed to answer that question in the affirmative - to just look at you and say... yes I love you I was made to love you I have no other choice? Could this be called a real relationship?

So why is there evil in the world? Because God has given us this free will. This ability to choose. The consequence of that is that just like rebellious children, "All we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned every one to his own way." And those ways which we have chosen have brought about this evil that you speak of.
The intervention that you mentioned took place in history when God stepped into humanity in the person of Jesus Christ to offer a way back to Himself. On that cross, He did the following for you and for me. " He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities, the punishment for our peace fell on Him and by His stripes we are healed." The Son of God became the Son of Man in order to to take our punishment onto Himself so that we could, through belief in Him, be reconciled in that relationship with God. But the choice will always remain ours. (Doesn't that sound like a loving God to you?)
These words should you like to read the entire context of them were penned by the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 53 and were written some 700 to 800 years before the coming of Jesus Christ. They exactly portray the person of Christ.

I believe in the historical life of Jesus Christ and the eye-witness testimony of those who walked and talked with Him during His ministry here. I cannot believe Him to be any other person than who He claimed to be.
He said "I AM, the resurrection and the life, anyone living and believing in me shall never die and any one believing in me, though he die yet shall he live." Then He added, "Do you believe this?"
And I have chosen to believe Him and say to Him Oh Yes Lord Jesus I do!!

John54 · May 27, 2007

Hi John.
If you don't mind my asking... would you mind giving your definition of evil? Thanks.

It's quite broad, Desmalia. I'd say 'evil' is that which threatens human life, and 'good' is that which enhances it.

So where does the idea of good come from? How do you know that something is evil? Where do you get this idea of knowing that one thing is good and another evil. Good implies that there is a moral law. If there is a moral law the there must be a moral law giver. The law giver is God.

I base my ethical systems on the worth human beings (not God) have assigned to life, Gracealone.

I don't think we need a deity to tell us it's wrong to kill, lie or steal. Human beings have always had the potential to use their minds to determine what is kind and reasonable.

My personal evidence is that he answers so many of my prayers. Also, once when my faith was severely failing he spoke to me.

There is no way I can prove this to you and you might call it emotional. Nevertheless, I believe he is real and there is absolutely nothing you can do to convince me otherwise.

I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, Secundulus. I'm certainly not here to try to convert people to atheism! I'm just interested in the reasons people have for believing in something that seems to me to be highly unlikely.

If you don't mind, I'd like to hear more about the time your faith was tested and you felt God spoke to you.

John

Under_His_Shadow · May 28, 2007

John54 said:
It's partly the problem of evil, Under His Shadow.[/SIZE][/FONT]

As Epicurus said long ago:

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. . . . If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. . . . If, as they say, God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"

But I also feel that, if there were a God - one who loves humanity, cares for us, intervenes in our lives - the world would be a very different place from the one in which we find ourselves.

John

Epicuras errored in his thinking John, because he was ignorant of both what God's Word teaches on that subject, and of God's power.

According to the Scripture, God will deal in perfect judgement with both Satan and evil men in the future, and is preparing a new heaven and a new earth (for those who previously had received His free gift of salvation through faith in who Jesus Christ is and what He did on the cross to provide their redemption unto eternal life) because the first heaven and the first earth will pass away, and there shall be no more death, sorrow, crying, or any more pain (Rev. 21:1-4).

If you're really serious about knowing how God is going to resolve the problem of sin in the world, I'd suggest you get and read a good Christian commentary on "eschatology" (the study of ultimate or final things, such as death, the destiny of humanity, the Second Coming, and the Last Judgment, etc.).

John54 · May 28, 2007

Epicuras errored in his thinking John, because he was ignorant of both what God's Word teaches on that subject, and of God's power.

Epicurus was far from alone in expounding the problem of evil, Under His Shadow. He was just the first thinker to do so in print, so it's sometimes called "the Epicurean paradox" or "the riddle of Epicurus."

He draws the conclusion that the existence of evil is incompatible with the existence of a God who cares about mankind, assuming absolute concepts of benevolence, knowledge, and power.

It's like the concept of a square circle, or a triangle with four sides. Self-contradictory and logically impossible.

John

Secundulus · May 28, 2007

John54 said:
I'm not trying to convince you otherwise, Secundulus. I'm certainly not here to try to convert people to atheism! I'm just interested in the reasons people have for believing in something that seems to me to be highly unlikely.

Sorry. I wasn't accusing you, rather I was just making a rhetorical point.

John54 said:
If you don't mind, I'd like to hear more about the time your faith was tested and you felt God spoke to you.

A couple of years ago, for specific reasons that don't need to be discussed I became convinced that the Christian conception of God was not true. Essentially, it was because a specific important prayer had not been answered.

I didn't abandon the idea of God altogether because I still saw too much evidence. But I became convinced that some sort of deism or paganism had to be the answer. So I quit going to church and began investigating various pagan religions and then drifted into gnosticism. After about six months of this, on Christmas Day I heard a voice in my head that said, "I am real, quit being stupid with these other religions."

This voice was unlike the normal running commentary that one has filling their brain throughout the day. Nevertheless, I realize any skeptic will just say it came from myself. If this was my sole piece of evidence I might scoff at it. But I have been getting my prayers answered all my life (not all, but many). So the sum total of this leads me to the unshakable conclusion that Jesus is the Christ and is Lord.

John54 · May 28, 2007

A couple of years ago, for specific reasons that don't need to be discussed I became convinced that the Christian conception of God was not true. Essentially, it was because a specific important prayer had not been answered.

Thanks for answering.

No need to go into details, but did you ever come to any kind of conclusion regarding why God didn't answer that particular prayer, given that He'd answered so many in the past?

John

MikeMcK · May 28, 2007

John54 said:
How can you believe in God?

How can you believe in gravity?

I've been an atheist for many years, and it seems so obvious to me that God is a fiction - but I know intelligent people who do believe. From what they say it appears they do so for emotional, rather than logical, reasons.

No. It is for logical reasons.

First of all, look around you. Do you really believe that the Universe came from nothing?

Of course you don't! You're far to smart to believe that an ordered design can come from anything but an intelligent designer.

Second, God has given us His word and we can examine it to see whether or not it is the word of God.

We can examine the manuscript evidence to see that it is internally consistent, in spite of having been written by 40 some odd people, from every stripe of the socio-political-economic spectrum, on three different continents, over a period of a couple of thousand years.

Next, we cab examine the archaeological evidence to see that the people and places and events of the Bible were real, literal people and places.

Then, we can look at the prophetic evidence to see that there are more than 100 prophecies concerning the coming of Christ, the nature of Christ, the death of Christ, and the resurrection of Christ.

Finally, we can look at the statistical evidence to determine that the only logical conclusion is that the people, places and events of the Bible must be true.

What is it that makes you so sure there is a loving, personal God when there seems to be such strong evidence against that concept?

There is no evidence against a "personal, loving God". Even atheists will admit this.

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