An honest look at Christians and Atheists and what they don't see, maybe.

[Moral Orel]

I'm not sure that belief in a creator is necessary. For example, we have no idea what religion the thief on the cross held. It didn't seem to matter.

What??? If Christianity is true, maybe there's a God that created everything and maybe there isn't?

Christianity being true entails a lot more than simply, "There was a man who had the power to rise from the dead". And none of it is proven by a man rising from the dead.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

What??? If Christianity is true, maybe there's a God that created everything and maybe there isn't?

Christianity being true entails a lot more than simply, "There was a man who had the power to rise from the dead". And none of it is proven by a man rising from the dead.

The first generation of Christians weren't anything like what we recognize as Christianity today. Most of first-generation Christianity was deliberately wiped from history on the grounds that it was blasphemous. Peter's version survived. Paul, a second generation Christian, fixed everything up like when a comic book changes ownership and uses retcons to "clarify" everything.

 

[All Becomes New]

What do atheists have to say that is relevant to the Bible? Really? You've never heard an atheist talk about the Bible before? Okay... I'll give you one of mine. How come in all the many many laws in the OT, it never once states clearly and plainly, "thou shalt not rape?" Oh, I know, there are some laws that involve rape, but rape itself isn't really outlawed. If you think it is, tell me what the penalty for raping a divorced woman is. Take your time on that one.

Don't need to take my time. There's a story in Genesis about one of the Israelite's sisters being raped. The raper, and all his kinsmen, we killed.

I don't believe much. I believe most people are suckers who are swayed by appeals to emotion much more than rational arguments. Note that I didn't say "Christians" I said "people", so don't take that personally.

Taking what an atheist says personally is a sure fire way to get discouraged.

Okay, present your version of Kalam, I'll probably ask a few questions for clarification, then I'll tell you why it's bad.

1. If something begins to exist, it has a cause
2. The universe began to exist
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause

Here's an alternate argument I came up with with some help.

1. There are entities that change over time
2. These entities cannot account for themselves
3. A greatest conceivable entity can account for these entities
4. Therefore, there is a greatest conceivable entity

I'll believe they believe that, but that doesn't mean they're right. There's lots of good reasons to not believe personal testimony. The fact that human memory is ridiculously fallible just for starters.

Not what I asked as you are ignoring the fact that they are otherwise Truthful. I'm not just throwing a hypothetical at you, BTW.

It's the only relevant question to the point. You don't believe him, that's clear from all the dodging of the question. You also don't believe that there is an even number either. You don't hold a belief on whether the number is odd or even. Go ahead and have another little laugh that I'm telling you what you think, but consider the fact that I was right both times.

No, my point was that guessing odd or even number of jellybeans is dealing with a guess that requires a great deal more information than you have that is reasonable to guess, but it is not unreasonable to guess how many jelly beans are in the jar given if your guess is closest to the actual number, that you will win all the jelly beans. I haven't stawmanned your hypothetical, I have given it a cutting edge.

 

[GDL]

Atheism is a lack of belief, not a belief that something is false.

We should probably define our terms more precisely. There are different types of atheism and some atheists do say there is no god, or God.

And to do this, we should probably go back and define theism. As a Christian, since atheism is a negation of theism, I could say I'm an atheist, if a theist is a belief in a god or gods, which it can be.

Even identifying yourself as an agnostic, we could ask you to clarify exactly what you mean by "agnostic."

Even referring to oneself as a Christian in these times, I often ask for an explanation as to what the professor means by such profession - what makes you a Christian?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

nm

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I remain unconvinced by the evidence that there are any kind of supernatural entities existing.

If the natural state of the universe is death/dead then life on earth seems sorta super natural.

 

[Larniavc]

If the natural state of the universe is death/dead then life on earth seems sorta super natural.

Why is the natural state of the universe dead?

 

[Rachel20]

Something I keep coming back to as a Christian - the reason Christ gave for people not coming to the light never matches anything the unbelievers claim. I know there will be genuine unbelievers, because we're all at different points in life. So there will always be those at the point of initial questioning & seeking. But there is that category Christ spoke of (John 3:19). So a question every atheist/agnostic might want to ask themselves - is there something in your life that impedes you? That makes you want not to believe?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Why is the natural state of the universe dead?

Because there is no (observed) life to be found anywhere else but on earth. That's all we know at the moment, but it comports nicely with the bible story, which only mentions mortal life on earth. Of course there may well be spirit life all over the place up there.

 

[GDL]

I was once agnostic.

If you will, what changed your belief?

A lack of belief isn’t an equation of true and false. It’s null. There’s nothing to compute. It doesn’t exist.

It does exist. There's always something to compute. It's not null. It depends upon what's meant by the one who says "I don't believe" - maybe it shouldn't, but it frequently does.

A lack of belief in an agnostic is at minimum saying I don't know, or I cannot know, or even I don't want to know. But this does not mean the knowledge does not exist.

Atheism also has variations on the theme.

One of the interesting arguments against both comes from Romans 1 (I'm sure the A-Theists & A-Gnostics have dealt with this before), where Paul says God has made certain matters about Himself known to all through His creation. Some have chosen to see no value in having this practical knowledge about Him and thus reject it and Him. We're further instructed that they thus have no excuse before Him. More is also stated.

Frankly, I don't think we can ever exhaust the facts stated here:

NKJ Isaiah 55:8-9 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD (YHWH). 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

We're just infants playing in a sandbox created for us to contain us for a time & purpose. We look for proof in the sand and theorize implications outward. We typically end up thinking way too highly of ourselves.

 

[Larniavc]

Because there is no (observed) life to be found anywhere else but on earth. That's all we know at the moment, but it comports nicely with the bible story, which only mentions mortal life on earth. Of course there may well be spirit life all over the place up there.

No, you misunderstand my point. For something to be dead it has to have at one point been alive.

A rock on the ground is not dead because it has never been alive.

Non-biological might be better.

However, being ‘alive’ does not have a clear delimiter: are prions alive? What about viruses? Or crystals?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

No, you misunderstand my point. For something to be dead it has to have at one point been alive.

A rock on the ground is not dead because it has never been alive.

Non-biological might be better.

However, being ‘alive’ does not have a clear delimiter: are prions alive? What about viruses? Or crystals?

What I mean by 'dead' is the absence of life.

 

[GDL]

What I mean by 'dead' is the absence of life.

And for a Christian, it's also living a death-like life we were born into, until we found Life in Christ.

Nice to see some bringing some definition into words being exchanged.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And for a Christian, it's also living a death-like life we were born into, until we found Life in Christ.

Nice to see some bringing some definition into words being exchanged.

Indeed, without salvation we are the 'walking dead'.

 

[Larniavc]

If the natural state of the universe is death/dead then life on earth seems sorta super natural.

The important word here is ‘seems’.

That means you are making an argumentum ad ignorantium.

 

[Larniavc]

Kalam. This is not bad evidence.

It is. It’s terrible evidence. How is a cause from an uncaused entity logical?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The important word here is ‘seems’.

That means you are making an argumentum ad ignorantium.

I'm not arguing, just presenting my belief.

 

[Larniavc]

I'm not arguing, just presenting my belief.

Which is based on incredulity. Therefore logically false.

 

[cvanwey]

I want to state the basics of what Christians and Atheists believe.

Christians believe God came down from heaven and was incarnated in a human birth on earth to bring abundant life to all those who are committed to this belief. Atheists do not believe this is True.

My belief, for any assertion, is based on probability or a confidence level. I will use the percentage system here, to present a measurable gauge for you.

It's not that I think Christianity is not True... It's that my confidence level is extremely low, like <1%, that the assertions for Christianity are supported by said evidence. Hence, I make no True declaration that Christianity is either True or false. Just that I currently harbor quite a bit of doubt.

Christians believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and as such is True. Atheists believe the Bible is just like any other book, or worse.

I currently have a high level of confidence, (99+%), that any/every book was written by humans, and humans alone.

Christians think Christianity is True while Atheists posit that Christianity is False.

This may only be partially true if one proclaims to be a staunch gnostic atheist, verses any variety of an agnostic atheist or other.

I'm just a plain 'ol skeptic about many claims (i.e.) people rising from the dead, haunted houses, psychics, mediums, ghosts, alien abductions, etc....

Christians need to defend all of their belief claims about Christianity because if one of their beliefs claims about Christianity is not True, then it shows Christianity is False.

Maybe if you are Ken Ham. But many Christians do not ascribe to this notion. Are you one of them?

Atheists don't need to defend any of their belief claims about Christianity because none of their belief claims about Christianity shows anything about the Truthfulness or Falseness of Christianity.

I disagree here. I try very hard not to make positive or negative claims about Christianity. I instead express my doubt. I do offer probabilities, IMO, as to whether or not I perceive the claim to be true, but that's a different case.

Now, I am generalizing in order to contrast the two, but can you more or less agree to this?

No.

My simple question then, is why do you believe what you do as either a Christian or an Atheist?

I'm a skeptic. I doubt or question the proposition posed. I'm holding out for more data I guess. At some point, I may or may not claim some sort of 'gnostic assessment' about the assertion(s) of Christianity...?.?.?.? I do not know if there exists data I have yet to explore. You got anything which I might not have already heard, which you feel may boost my confidence level, from <1%, to a higher number?

 

[GDL]

Just that I currently harbor quite a bit of doubt.

Seems so based upon your stated %'s.

I currently have a high level of confidence, (99+%), that any/every book was written by humans, and humans alone.

Confidence based upon what - in-depth studies of the Text, input from others,...???

I disagree here. I try very hard not to make positive or negative claims about Christianity. I instead express my doubt. I do offer probabilities, IMO, as to whether or not I perceive the claim to be true, but that's a different case.

Although seemingly respectful and possibly based in some level of thoughtful considerations, are your stated %'s not substantially negative claims in themselves?

I'm a skeptic. I doubt or question the proposition posed. I'm holding out for more data I guess. At some point, I may or may not claim some sort of 'gnostic assessment' about the assertion(s) of Christianity...?.?.?.? I do not know if there exists data I have yet to explore. You got anything which I might not have already heard, which you feel may boost my confidence level, from <1%, to a higher number?

What type of "data" are you "holding out for"?

Any thoughts on the "data" that Romans 1 says God has given to every human being (see post #30).

Looks like you were invited here in the OP, so, please, either of you inform me you'd like to discuss between yourselves.