An Ethical Question - Confederate Flag Items

[Fortran]

Hello all,

While the height of the debate may be in the past, it is clear that the Confederate Flag can be a touchy subject. I was attempting to list a set of Confederate Flag belt buckles on eBay (I am selling them for my aunt, they were her recently deceased's husband/my uncle's items) when I was greeted with a message that eBay no longer allowed the sale of such items. While I did not take a strong stance on the issue either way, when the debate was raging, I did find myself more inclined to side with those who wanted to remove the Confederate Flag from being a honorable symbol in the public eye, but I was bit surprised by this.

With all this in mind, I thought about trying to sell these elsewhere (probably Facebook). My question is this, do you believe it is wrong to sell or market Confederate items? If you saw an individual selling such items would you be offended? The question is obviously open to all, but I am especially interested in the opinions of African Americans. I know racism is all too real; I do not want to be associated with it in any way.

Thanks.

 

[Greg J.]

Ethically, maybe morally (Romans 13:1-7, if the government were enforcing the law equally), the Confederate flag issue cannot be resolved for individuals, because it means different things to different people, so it is not a single moral question. Plenty of people in the South see it as a sign of the unity of the Southern people, without any connotation of rebellion against the United States. (You can thank the attitude of too many Northerners for that.) If it is resolved, it will be by mandate by those in authority. (Which will of course create some pockets of increased rebellion, but that's not necessarily the moral fault of the authorities.)

For those without political influence or not deeply entrenched in the issue in some other way, it is practical to view it as a social issue. This is a little easier because you can focus on how your choices will affect you personally and how it may impact society. Also perhaps how it might affect your Aunt or other family (those to whom you have greater responsibility for/to than society in general). Your examination is not dissimilar to what a person deals with after becoming Christian regarding various paraphernalia related to their past sins.

To what degree is it your responsibility to do what is best for society?
Is it bad for society if you participate in sustaining the image in people's minds?
Is it actually going to end up helping sustain a rebellious attitude toward the governing authorities?
Do you believe God will hold you accountable for doing something immoral? (see Hebrews 12:14, Romans 12:18)
To what degree should you be obedient to your Aunt? Is the situation such that she is actually the one responsible for selling, and you are just doing what you're told? (Imagine Daniel's life [from the book of Daniel], who lived such that he was prized by an ungodly king.)
To what degree to you care what people think of you? How much should it matter?
Might you be putting a stumbling block in the way of those with less faith in Jesus than you?

Sometimes when an issue is too complicated, exercising common sense in light of Godly wisdom (e.g., book of Proverbs) is the best we can do. (Re)reading a few chapters of Proverbs can help prepare you with a Godly wisdom mindset.) Praying about it before doing anything is also good—definitely when you have uncertainty of what is right, how to view it, or just what to do.

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

Plenty of people in the South see it as a sign of the unity of the Southern people, without any connotation of rebellion against the United States.

This is true, but "plenty of people in the South" are also black, and see it as a glorification of the slavery of their ancestors. I don't think one kind of Southerner's views ought to be eclipsing the views of other Southerners, particularly in light of said flag's simultaneous association with "arguable" treason.

 

[Greg J.]

What I said includes some African-Americans, too. But that's not the point. I meant only that there are lots of views on what the flag means.

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

Hello all,

While the height of the debate may be in the past, it is clear that the Confederate Flag can be a touchy subject. I was attempting to list a set of Confederate Flag belt buckles on eBay (I am selling them for my aunt, they were her recently deceased's husband/my uncle's items) when I was greeted with a message that eBay no longer allowed the sale of such items. While I did not take a strong stance on the issue either way, when the debate was raging, I did find myself more inclined to side with those who wanted to remove the Confederate Flag from being a honorable symbol in the public eye, but I was bit surprised by this.

With all this in mind, I thought about trying to sell these elsewhere (probably Facebook). My question is this, do you believe it is wrong to sell or market Confederate items? If you saw an individual selling such items would you be offended? The question is obviously open to all, but I am especially interested in the opinions of African Americans. I know racism is all too real; I do not want to be associated with it in any way.

Thanks.

If your aunt really wants them sold for money, you might need to seek out a Confederate memorabilia site, which I'm sure exist all over the place in light of the recent brouhaha.

As a black American (and also a Native), I'm not inclined to view these objects favorably, but I'm not against people selling them for personal use. The line of demarcation for me comes when such symbols are state sanctioned and given places of honor.

 

[AwakeInTheMatrix]

What I said includes some African-Americans, too. But that's not the point. I meant only that there are lots of views on what the flag means.

I wasn't trying to be argumentative and I hear your view. I do get irritated when people say "the South" when they really mean "the white South", though.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

If someone is willing to buy an item and another to sell it, then the free market dictates it should be so.

 

[WolfGate]

If someone is willing to buy an item and another to sell it, then the free market dictates it should be so.

I think that is too simplistic an argument in light of the detailed OP. There are things that I suspect you would agree should not be bought and sold in a free market. The question posed in the OP is should the confederate flag fall into that group.

 

[WolfGate]

Hello all,

While the height of the debate may be in the past, it is clear that the Confederate Flag can be a touchy subject. I was attempting to list a set of Confederate Flag belt buckles on eBay (I am selling them for my aunt, they were her recently deceased's husband/my uncle's items) when I was greeted with a message that eBay no longer allowed the sale of such items. While I did not take a strong stance on the issue either way, when the debate was raging, I did find myself more inclined to side with those who wanted to remove the Confederate Flag from being a honorable symbol in the public eye, but I was bit surprised by this.

With all this in mind, I thought about trying to sell these elsewhere (probably Facebook). My question is this, do you believe it is wrong to sell or market Confederate items? If you saw an individual selling such items would you be offended? The question is obviously open to all, but I am especially interested in the opinions of African Americans. I know racism is all too real; I do not want to be associated with it in any way.

Thanks.

My thought is that you actually have embedded in your post what you could do. While it is hard to do so, if you can sell them to someone where you understand their motivation for buying them is not racist then you could do so. You did not indicate if the belt buckles were simply decorative or had any historical significance. If purely decorative, that will be harder - while not racist the person buying them might be insensitive to the impact they have on AAs. If there is historical significance, a collector of civil war/reconstruction items might buy them for historical reasons.

 

[Greg J.]

(I guess this is all off topic.)

I wasn't trying to be argumentative and I hear your view. I do get irritated when people say "the South" when they really mean "the white South", though.

I know what you mean about "the white South." I suspect people imagine people like themselves in situations they have to use their imagination. I wonder if non-Southern blacks envision the South as white, too.

I was guilty of this same thing. I remember it being an epiphany when I realized the South is home to African-Americans just as much as Caucasians (and now also to Asians, etc.). It is the place they know and find comforting, the place they have roots, the place their great-grandparents are from, etc. Unfortunately there's still very real divide that reinforces the deception, such as when one sees 80% of fast food restaurant employees are black.

It shouldn't have been an epiphany. I suspect it was because people automatically shut out of their heart people who are from unfamiliar (hence, uncomfortable) subcultures, which (to me, anyway) makes them seem like "others" instead of "one of us" far more than skin color does.

I've self-examined and made enough effort to change to recognize it is only my childhood exposure that sustains some automatic prejudicial reactions. The prejudice I had to war against later was prejudice based on the mannerisms and use of language people get from their subculture. This was a good fight, because it was against a false view of all kinds of "aliens" (people from around the world), not just those from childhood prejudices. I was motivated to sustain this fight because the truth is that

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:28, 1984 NIV)

It's amazing how much work God has done in me (still not perfect, though). Now others can be shocked by seeing how normally I treat certain kinds of people, heh.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I think that is too simplistic an argument in light of the detailed OP. There are things that I suspect you would agree should not be bought and sold in a free market. The question posed in the OP is should the confederate flag fall into that group.

If possession of an object is legal, you want to sell said object and someone else wants to buy it, I fail to see where this would be incorrect. This is especcially true when the object in question is not dangerous, but merely controversial. What the buyer does with his possession or what values he ascribes to, is not within the moral realm of the seller.

 

[Resha Caner]

What the buyer does with his possession or what values he ascribes to, is not within the moral realm of the seller.

That's not true. There are situations where the seller is legally responsible. Most cases deal with selling through neutral countries to organizations on a watch list, things like that, but the legal precedent is there.

I don't like "playing lawyer" - putting on moral blinders and declaring that as long as something is legal there is no problem. I, personally, would not involve myself in the buying or selling of Confederate material except to archival institutions.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

That's not true. There are situations where the seller is legally responsible. Most cases deal with selling through neutral countries to organizations on a watch list, things like that, but the legal precedent is there.

These are not things like flag reproductions though, I wager.

I don't like "playing lawyer" - putting on moral blinders and declaring that as long as something is legal there is no problem. I, personally, would not involve myself in the buying or selling of Confederate material except to archival institutions.

I am not putting on 'moral blinders', but I don't think selling an object you don't want to someone who does, when the object itself is merely a symbol, should at all be controversial.

In my home country we have a flag called the Vierkleur which is similar in many ways to the Confederate flag. I realise the nuance of meaning that such symbols hold to those who cherish them and don't think it is our place to pontificate to others what they may or may not find meaningful or wish to possess.

 

[Resha Caner]

These are not things like flag reproductions though, I wager.

Not in the U.S that I know of. However, in some places symbols with a particularly nasty past are restricted. Nazi symbols are illegal in Germany, for example.

I am not putting on 'moral blinders'.

I think you are. You're throwing up the "not my problem" response.

In my home country we have a flag called the Vierkleur which is similar in many ways to the Confederate flag. I realise the nuance of meaning that such symbols hold to those who cherish them and don't think it is our place to pontificate to others what they may or may not find meaningful or wish to possess.

Use of the Confederate flag in the U.S. is not just "southern unity" as was stated earlier. It's part of historical revisionism that promotes a paternalistic view of slavery - something we just covered in my summer history course on historical memory.

Dismissing symbols as "just symbols" is naive.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

I think you are. You're throwing up the "not my problem" response.

Perhaps. Its difficult to see when you yourself are acting unreasonably.

Use of the Confederate flag in the U.S. is not just "southern unity" as was stated earlier. It's part of historical revisionism that promotes a paternalistic view of slavery - something we just covered in my summer history course on historical memory.

Dismissing symbols as "just symbols" is naive.

As I said, it is a nuanced situation with the flag having both cultural, historical, racist and other associations.

Let me try and explain the problem from another angle. US nationalists or the far-Right in Europe use their national flags as their primary symbols. Notably the British National party used the Union Jack. Similarly the Union Jack is associated with crimes in other countries. I have often heard elderly Afrikaners say that it rekinds them of the Concentration camps and British atrocities in the Boer war.
I would assume the Stars and Stripes would conjure up the similar ghosts in Vietnam and I know that inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki feel this way. It is also used as a subsidiary symbol of the KKK.
Should we then ban the sale of US and UK flags and products because certain groups have negative associations towards them or because they are in use by racist and nationalist groups? Is this not unfair to those who feel pride therein and have completely different associations towards these flags?

 

[Resha Caner]

Should we then ban the sale of US and UK flags and products because certain groups have negative associations towards them or because they are in use by racist and nationalist groups?

Possibly. Were we to elect a fascist president who unleashes untold brutality upon the world, retiring the stars & stripes should be considered. Given that the UK is no longer an empire, the unity of the different symbols within their flag may not apply & maybe they need to consider changing it.

I'm aware the U.S. has perpetrated unjustifiable acts at some times and places. I'd not be surprised if those nations were to ban the stars and stripes within their borders. Your position, on the other hand, appears to wave off the injustices as a trivial consideration with which those who bear the symbol shouldn't be burdened.

Is this not unfair to those who feel pride therein and have completely different associations towards these flags?

No. Those who want to wave the U.S. flag must accept the blood along with the spit & polish. Those to want to wave a Confederate flag need to own up to its legacy. If they want to promote a white-washed view of their past, I'll not be a part of it. And there comes a point when the flag shouldn't be waved at all.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Possibly. Were we to elect a fascist president who unleashes untold brutality upon the world, retiring the stars & stripes should be considered. Given that the UK is no longer an empire, the unity of the different symbols within their flag may not apply & maybe they need to consider changing it.

England, Scotland and a portion of Ireland still remain in Union, so the different cross symbols still apply.
I disagree that symbols should be discontinued. It would cause a break in historic identity instead of facing up to the past. This is a big reason why Nazi Germany dropped both the Weimar and older Prussian flags and in turn had their own flag dropped. This has made people not identify so much with them and allows atrocities to be easily written off as 'oh the Nazis did that'. Germany should have reverted to the black, white, red tricolour of the German Empire instead of restoring the Weimar colours as if the Nazis never happened.

I'm aware the U.S. has perpetrated unjustifiable acts at some times and places. I'd not be surprised if those nations were to ban the stars and stripes within their borders. Your position, on the other hand, appears to wave off the injustices as a trivial consideration with which those who bear the symbol shouldn't be burdened.

That is not my position. All flags are burdened with whatever good or ill was done under them. I do think however that if someone wants to emblazon a product with a flag or symbol and someone else wants to buy it, there is no reason to prohibit this.

No. Those who want to wave the U.S. flag must accept the blood along with the spit & polish. Those to want to wave a Confederate flag need to own up to its legacy. If they want to promote a white-washed view of their past, I'll not be a part of it. And there comes a point when the flag shouldn't be waved at all.

That is the point. You must accept the flag's entire legacy. Often you buy products because aspects of its legacy is meaningful to you, while still acknowledging all its facets.
A confederate flag supporter who does this, on account of a brave ancestor or whatever, will still be branded a racist and will be unable to buy flags or products on account of others' prejudices. This is unfair.

 

[Resha Caner]

A confederate flag supporter who does this, on account of a brave ancestor or whatever, will still be branded a racist and will be unable to buy flags or products on account of others' prejudices. This is unfair.

Standing bravely for racism is not something to celebrate, and I feel no obligation to support them. I think many who indicate pride in Confederate symbols were duped by the Redemptionist movement. I'd rather stand against that revisionism.

I don't know how you're managing the dissonance of supporting those who raise racist symbols while saying you have no part in racism. But, for my part, if you support their right to bear that symbol, you're also sharing in the legacy of that symbol.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Standing bravely for racism is not something to celebrate, and I feel no obligation to support them. I think many who indicate pride in Confederate symbols were duped by the Redemptionist movement. I'd rather stand against that revisionism.

Well the Confederate flag was never the national flag of the CSA. The closest approximation would be a late naval jack or the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.
It did however become a general symbol of the South after the war. Notably it was used on Southern products, sports events and carried along with regimental colours by Southern military regiments. The confederate flag flew for 2 days over Shuri Castle during the Battle of Okinawa in WWII for instance, before it was taken down out of deference to the Yankees also defending it.
To a confederate flag supporter it is therefore not primarily a racist symbol, but one of heritage. So in their minds they are not proudly standing for Racism at all, racist policies just happen to be associated historically with the South. It does not mean they have a white-washed view of the past at all.
I understand how these people feel though. I am an Afrikaner and my ancestors fought in WWI and II under the old flag of South Africa, which today is thought a racist symbol because of its association with right-wing groups and Apartheid.

I don't know how you're managing the dissonance of supporting those who raise racist symbols while saying you have no part in racism. But, for my part, if you support their right to bear that symbol, you're also sharing in the legacy of that symbol.

The same way people manage the dissonance of raising the Stars and Stripes.
So whenever someone raises it, they are sharing in the legacy of Segregation, Trail of Tears, Crushing Philippino Independance, not helping Japanese radiation victims, Vietnam atrocities etc.
Are they therefore excusing these actions? Does the raising of the flag mean they support these actions? Do they thus hold a revisionist view of history where the US never does a wrong?
I have met many Americans proud of their country and heritage while acknowledging the US has done many evil actions as well as good ones. So should they then not raise the US flag because they don't agree with a part of its legacy?
If what you are saying was true, then everytime someone did something wrong they would have to ban the national symbol and completely replace it.
All symbols have nuanced meanings that change depending on the person viewing the symbol.

 

[Resha Caner]

Well the Confederate flag was never the national flag of the CSA.

Now you're just equivocating ... well, the Stars and Stripes were never raised over the Trail of Tears.

What is the state flag of Mississippi? Prior to 1861 they didn't have one. They adopted the "Bonnie Blue Flag" when they seceded in 1861, which was based on a flag used during the rebellion against the Spanish governor in 1810 prior to annexation by the U.S. It was, however, replaced by their current flag in 1894 during the Redemptionist movement. It is and only ever has been a symbol of the Confederacy.

To a confederate flag supporter it is therefore not primarily a racist symbol, but one of heritage.

What heritage? According to Forbes there was no "South" prior to the rise of the controversy over slavery. It was the issue of slavery that made the South. There was a Virginia, Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Texas, etc. But there was no South. So, if a Mississippian wants to celebrate their "heritage" why not the Bonnie Blue Flag? Why the Confederate battle flag - something only adopted for that purpose.

What "heritage" are they celebrating? Before you claim such things you should read works such as Growing Up Jim Crow by Jennifer Ritterhouse, Landmarks of Power: Building a Southern Past by Catherine Bishir, or maybe even memoirs from Southerners such as The Making of a Southerner by Catherine Du Pre Lumpkin. You mention South Africa, and I've seen contrasts between that and the American South to highlight how different they are and how American Southerners aren't facing up to their past. They're reinventing it so as to celebrate what was done.

If you're going to defend someone's display of symbolism, you have a responsibility to know what it is they're symbolizing. So my position stands. By defending it you bear some responsibility for the racial problems in the U.S.

If what you are saying was true, then everytime someone did something wrong they would have to ban the national symbol and completely replace it.

That's not what I'm saying. There is no general answer for every symbol. It's a case by case thing. If you want to show me the apology for slavery from the state of Mississippi (as Delaware did) and their explanation as to why the flag has absolutely nothing to do with slavery - that it's just about "heritage", or that it now stands as a symbol against slavery & racism ... I'd love to see that.

Until then, I consider you a party to racism.