An eternal universe and the 'special plead' of God [cosmology]

theoneandonlypencil

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Okay, to keep this short, I was wondering if anyone had a genuine theory/explanation to this concept I see a lot;

Eternal universe = false, because we need God for the universe to exist
God's existence = He always existed, thus created the universe

There's kind of a...contradiction here? A 'special plead' or exception for God, as I've heard some put it. It's an interesting concept and I wondered if anyone else has put much thought into it.

We say that the universe cannot be infinite or eternal because it needed God to exist, yet we have no explanation for how or when God came into existence.

I'd prefer replies from people who are at least semi-versed in cosmology, so no quoting the bible to base arguments :) (which is funny coming from a Christian)
 

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Laws of Thermodynamics | Back to Top
Energy exists in many forms, such as heat, light, chemical energy, and electrical energy. Energy is the ability to bring about change or to do work. Thermodynamics is the study of energy.

First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another. The First Law of Thermodynamics (Conservation) states that energy is always conserved, it cannot be created or destroyed. In essence, energy can be converted from one form into another. Click here for another page (developed by Dr. John Pratte, Clayton State Univ., GA) covering thermodynamics.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state." This is also commonly referred to as entropy. A watchspring-driven watch will run until the potential energy in the spring is converted, and not again until energy is reapplied to the spring to rewind it. A car that has run out of gas will not run again until you walk 10 miles to a gas station and refuel the car. Once the potential energy locked in carbohydrates is converted into kinetic energy (energy in use or motion), the organism will get no more until energy is input again. In the process of energy transfer, some energy will dissipate as heat. Entropy is a measure of disorder: cells are NOT disordered and so have low entropy. The flow of energy maintains order and life. Entropy wins when organisms cease to take in energy and die.

Potential vs. Kinetic energy | Back to Top
Potential energy, as the name implies, is energy that has not yet been used, thus the term potential. Kinetic energy is energy in use (or motion). A tank of gasoline has a certain potential energy that is converted into kinetic energy by the engine. When the potential is used up, you're outta gas! Batteries, when new or recharged, have a certain potential. When placed into a tape recorder and played at loud volume (the only settings for such things), the potential in the batteries is transformed into kinetic energy to drive the speakers. When the potential energy is all used up, the batteries are dead. In the case of rechargeable batteries, their potential is reelevated or restored.

In the hydrologic cycle, the sun is the ultimate source of energy, evaporating water (in a fashion raising it's potential above water in the ocean). When the water falls as rain (or snow) it begins to run downhill toward sea-level. As the water get closer to sea-level, it's potential energy is decreased. Without the sun, the water would eventually still reach sea-level, but never be evaporated to recharge the cycle.

Chemicals may also be considered from a potential energy or kinetic energy standpoint. One pound of sugar has a certain potential energy. If that pound of sugar is burned the energy is released all at once. The energy released is kinetic energy (heat). So much is released that organisms would burn up if all the energy was released at once. Organisms must release the energy a little bit at a time.

Energy is defined as the ability to do work. Cells convert potential energy, usually in the from of C-C covalent bonds or ATP molecules, into kinetic energy to accomplish cell division, growth, biosynthesis, and active transport, among other things.

LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS
 
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“Paisios”

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Okay, to keep this short, I was wondering if anyone had a genuine theory/explanation to this concept I see a lot;

Eternal universe = false, because we need God for the universe to exist
God's existence = He always existed, thus created the universe

There's kind of a...contradiction here? A 'special plead' or exception for God, as I've heard some put it. It's an interesting concept and I wondered if anyone else has put much thought into it.

We say that the universe cannot be infinite or eternal because it needed God to exist, yet we have no explanation for how or when God came into existence.

I'd prefer replies from people who are at least semi-versed in cosmology, so no quoting the bible to base arguments :) (which is funny coming from a Christian)
I have always seen it that we are seeing the universe from our perspective within time, so that words such as « always » have meaning only within that framework, but time itself is one of the things that God created, so that the whole question is ultimately meaningless from our limited perspective, since we can’t comprehend anything really and completely removed from time. But what do I know?
 
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Neogaia777

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On supra-galactic scales, why does it appear we are the center of the universe...?

And why does it appear that everything is accelerating outward from away from us at increasing rates of speed to moving outward away from us as the center of it to beyond light speeds past 46.5 billion light years out, and is why we cannot see beyond that right now, although there is probably much more beyond that, etc, we just can't see it yet, cause it appears to moving outward away from us as the center of all of it at beyond the speed of light beyond that point, etc...? Anyway, why does it appear that way with us as the center of it, etc...?

And, adding to that, why would it appear that you were always the center of it, and everything in it on supra-galactic scales is always moving outward and away from you as the center of it all at increasing rates of speed approaching beyond the speed of light at 46.5 billion light years out, anyway, why would it always appear that you were always the center of "it/that" from "wherever you were or are at in it always" on supra-galactic scales, etc...?

Why can we see 46.5 billion lights out in any direction, but the universe is only 13.8 billion years old...? And what if it was double or more than that, but the universe is only 13.8 Billion years old...?

If we can see 46.5 billion light years away and the stuff is also that old, or we're seeing it that far in the past from our location, how can the universe be only 13.8 Billion years old, and again, especially if there is more than likely more, and maybe much more, beyond that, etc...

Why is time relative to the speed of light, and your place and/or distance and/or location in the universe, and speed and travel though it in general also, etc...?

Why does it appear that we are the center of it, if the big bang did not originate from our location, etc...? Why would it always appear that way from wherever you were or are in it, etc...?

Why does it not appear that all galaxies are the same age or all at the same stages and/or ages of development, and the solar systems/planets in them, etc, as it should if the current big bang theory model and the universe only being 13.8 billion years old is accurate and correct...? Why does it appear that some have come and gone and others have came and went and others took their place, etc, were cycled and recycled, etc, etc, maybe over and over again, etc, if the universe is only 13.8 Billion years old...?

Just a few questions I have, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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muichimotsu

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Okay, to keep this short, I was wondering if anyone had a genuine theory/explanation to this concept I see a lot;

Eternal universe = false, because we need God for the universe to exist
God's existence = He always existed, thus created the universe

There's kind of a...contradiction here? A 'special plead' or exception for God, as I've heard some put it. It's an interesting concept and I wondered if anyone else has put much thought into it.

We say that the universe cannot be infinite or eternal because it needed God to exist, yet we have no explanation for how or when God came into existence.

I'd prefer replies from people who are at least semi-versed in cosmology, so no quoting the bible to base arguments :) (which is funny coming from a Christian)
The problem isn't really solvable when the God concept is such that you can qualify it to be beyond any real investigation, to say nothing of the limitations we have in being unable at present, to investigate beyond the Big Bang as it is.

You'd either have to render the God concept something reducible in nature to scientific investigation, in which case God becomes less than transcendent and boils down to pantheism and such, or you try to define God in such a way, as theologians and apologists are wont to do, as necessary and not subject to the same rules you established, which is still special pleading, because we have no reason to believe God must be defined in a way that makes it separate from causal principles established otherwise except as a solution to the problem of infinite regress
 
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muichimotsu

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I have always seen it that we are seeing the universe from our perspective within time, so that words such as « always » have meaning only within that framework, but time itself is one of the things that God created, so that the whole question is ultimately meaningless from our limited perspective, since we can’t comprehend anything really and completely removed from time. But what do I know?
How can something be removed from time and still be said to function at all? It'd be one thing if God was still in time, but it was hypertime and everything proceeded slower or faster to this entity, but outside of time means it cannot be said to have any kind of meaningful action, because it's removed from something that actions necessarily require.
 
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muichimotsu

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On supra-galactic scales, why does it appear we are the center of the universe...?

And why would it appear that you were always the center of it, and everything in it on supra-galactic scales is always moving outward and away from you as the center of it all at increasing rates of speed approaching beyond the speed of light at 46.5 billion light years out, anyway, why would it always appear that you were always the center of "it/that" from "wherever you were or are at in it always" on supra-galactic scales, etc...?

Why does it appear that we are the center of it, if the big bang did not originate from our location, etc...?

Because we're working on a limited frame or a skewed one (not sure where anyone suggest we're at the center of the universe unless you're positing a geocentric universe in general, which is just anthropic principle misapplied)


And why does it appear that everything is accelerating outward from away from us at increasing rates of speed to moving outward away from us as the center of it to beyond light speeds past 46.5 billion light years out, and is why we cannot see beyond that right now, although there is probably much more beyond that, etc, we just can't see it yet, cause it appears to moving outward away from us as the center of all of it at beyond the speed of light beyond that point, etc...?

You don't seem to understand big bang theory at all, because it's not emerging from us, but from some relative point we can determine as the center of the universe's expansion, not the earth itself. We can't see it for the same reason we can't see beyond the horizon on our spherical earth, it's beyond our range of vision to calculate without other involvement


Why can we see 46.5 billion lights out in any direction, but the universe is only 13.8 billion years old...? And what if it was double or more than that, but the universe is only 13.8 Billion years old...?

Not sure where you're getting the 46.5 billion, but methinks you're misunderstanding that in terms of scale or calculation.


Why does it not appear that all galaxies are the same age or all at the same stages and/or ages of development, and the solar systems/planets in them, etc, as it should if the current big bang theory model and the universe only being 13.8 billion years old is accurate and correct...? Why does it appear that some have come and gone and others have came and went and others took their place, etc, were cycled and recycled, etc, etc, maybe over and over again, etc, if the universe is only 13.8 Billion years old...?

Pretty sure galaxies don't all form at the same rate, so of course they'd no more appear to be the same age than we would expect all creatures on earth to have the same relative age in terms of their origin, because not all creatures we see came about at the same time because of how evolution varies
 
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Neogaia777

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How can something be removed from time and still be said to function at all? It'd be one thing if God was still in time, but it was hypertime and everything proceeded slower or faster to this entity, but outside of time means it cannot be said to have any kind of meaningful action, because it's removed from something that actions necessarily require.
Time only exists if you are not light, or are not moving at the exact speed of light, etc, cause time is relative to the speed of light, cause other than that you are light and you are time, or else time does not really exist and is a non-issue since time is all relative to the speed of light, and travel at the exact speed of light (as light), etc...

No one knows what would or might happen if you could go beyond the speed of light, but people like Einstein suggests it's not possible, or at least is inconceivable right now, cause light is time and time is light, etc...

Time would stop or freeze or be non-existent, since it's also a point of view based on travel at the exact speed of light, most don't know what would or could happen if you could go faster than that or beyond it/that, but due to the relative nature or both time and light, we can't even conceive of it being possible right now, cause time is light and light is time, and time is based on the point of view of light moving at the speed of light, etc... Or at least that's all we can see/know right now anyway...

And due to this, all time is also relative to location or where you are at in the universe also, etc...

The fact that we measure distances in "light years", means time is relative to distance between objects, and location and speed/travel in general also, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!
 
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muichimotsu

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Time only exists if you are not light, or are not moving at the exact speed of light, etc, cause time is relative to the speed of light, cause other than that you are light and you are time, or else time does not really exist and is a non-issue since time is all relative to the speed of light, and travel at the exact speed of light (as light), etc...

No one knows what would or might happen if you could go beyond the speed of light, but people like Einstein suggests it's not possible, or at least is inconceivable right now, cause light is time and time is light, etc...

And you're just obfuscating by equivocating the two absolutely rather than that they can work relative to each other in some similar manner. Are you saying God is beyond the speed of light, in which case it's either impossible or just beyond scientific investigation at present, in which case it ceases to be an object of faith or transcendence except in scale


And due to this, all time is also relative to location or where you are at in the universe also, etc...

The fact that we measure distances in "light years", means time is relative to distance between objects, and location and speed/travel in general also, etc...

So you admit that time and space are necessarily linked, but seem to ignore how God being described as generally beyond time and space would be incoherent given our knowledge of time and space's interrelation?
 
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“Paisios”

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How can something be removed from time and still be said to function at all? It'd be one thing if God was still in time, but it was hypertime and everything proceeded slower or faster to this entity, but outside of time means it cannot be said to have any kind of meaningful action, because it's removed from something that actions necessarily require.
I think that is where we, as humans, have limitations in understanding and conceptualisation that cannot be overcome, because we are necessarily within time. I know it’s basically a way of saying “I don’t know” but it makes me feel a bit better about not knowing.
 
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Neogaia777

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And you're just obfuscating by equivocating the two absolutely rather than that they can work relative to each other in some similar manner. Are you saying God is beyond the speed of light, in which case it's either impossible or just beyond scientific investigation at present, in which case it ceases to be an object of faith or transcendence except in scale




So you admit that time and space are necessarily linked, but seem to ignore how God being described as generally beyond time and space would be incoherent given our knowledge of time and space's interrelation?
I'm saying "I don't know" beyond what I've already stated, etc...

And I've grown comfortable with what I do not know or cannot know right now, or know beyond what I've already stated right now, etc...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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@muichimotsu , OK, I'll try to reason with you, K, and start with something very simple first, K...?

Do you believe the universe is "spherical" in nature...?

Cause if so, it expanded/expand outward from the center of that sphere, correct...? From a single center origin point in a spherical pattern outward, correct...?

Why does it appear that we are the center of that sphere, or that (supposed) acceleration or expansion...?

And then, why does it always appear that way from wherever you are at in it always...?

Let's just start with those for now, K...?

And I am talking about supra-galactic scales here, OK...

And right now currently, we can only see 46.5 billion light years outward from our present location, but we also know there is "more", possible much more, K...

Anyway, let's just start with those for now, K...?

God Bless!
 
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SkyWriting

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On supra-galactic scales, why does it appear we are the center of the universe...?

And why does it appear that everything is accelerating outward from away from us at increasing rates of speed to moving outward away from us as the center of it to beyond light speeds past 46.5 billion light years out, and is why we cannot see beyond that right now, although there is probably much more beyond that, etc, we just can't see it yet, cause it appears to moving outward away from us as the center of all of it at beyond the speed of light beyond that point, etc...? Anyway, why does it appear that way with us as the center of it, etc...?

And, adding to that, why would it appear that you were always the center of it, and everything in it on supra-galactic scales is always moving outward and away from you as the center of it all at increasing rates of speed approaching beyond the speed of light at 46.5 billion light years out, anyway, why would it always appear that you were always the center of "it/that" from "wherever you were or are at in it always" on supra-galactic scales, etc...?

Why can we see 46.5 billion lights out in any direction, but the universe is only 13.8 billion years old...? And what if it was double or more than that, but the universe is only 13.8 Billion years old...?

If we can see 46.5 billion light years away and the stuff is also that old, or we're seeing it that far in the past from our location, how can the universe be only 13.8 Billion years old, and again, especially if there is more than likely more, and maybe much more, beyond that, etc...

Why is time relative to the speed of light, and your place and/or distance and/or location in the universe, and speed and travel though it in general also, etc...?

Why does it appear that we are the center of it, if the big bang did not originate from our location, etc...? Why would it always appear that way from wherever you were or are in it, etc...?

Why does it not appear that all galaxies are the same age or all at the same stages and/or ages of development, and the solar systems/planets in them, etc, as it should if the current big bang theory model and the universe only being 13.8 billion years old is accurate and correct...? Why does it appear that some have come and gone and others have came and went and others took their place, etc, were cycled and recycled, etc, etc, maybe over and over again, etc, if the universe is only 13.8 Billion years old...?

Just a few questions I have, etc...?

Anyway,

God Bless!


Every point can be considered "in the center" because all of space is expanding.
So it seems anyway.
 
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Halbhh

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Okay, to keep this short, I was wondering if anyone had a genuine theory/explanation to this concept I see a lot;

Eternal universe = false, because we need God for the universe to exist
God's existence = He always existed, thus created the universe

There's kind of a...contradiction here? A 'special plead' or exception for God, as I've heard some put it. It's an interesting concept and I wondered if anyone else has put much thought into it.

We say that the universe cannot be infinite or eternal because it needed God to exist, yet we have no explanation for how or when God came into existence.

I'd prefer replies from people who are at least semi-versed in cosmology, so no quoting the bible to base arguments :) (which is funny coming from a Christian)
God would be, by definition, what would not need to come into being. Would not need a beginning. That's an attribute we usually think of Him, the Eternal One.

Existence itself.

The Ground of Being.

But the specific cosmology would not matter, whether this universe came into being suddenly or merely transformed in a bounce such as this speculative theory (just one of many speculative theories):
https://phys.org/news/2016-07-big.html

Any cosmology fits fine. He is able.
 
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muichimotsu

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Do you believe the universe is "spherical" in nature...?

I don't think anyone has a remotely certain notion of the shape of the universe, considering the scale, not to mention its origin is not the same as a planet, which involves gravitation of the materials around a sun, whereas there isn't necessarily a center that we could easily determine

Cause if so, it expanded/expand outward from the center of that sphere, correct...? From a single center origin point in a spherical pattern outward, correct...?

Why does it appear that we are the center of that sphere, or that (supposed) acceleration or expansion...?

And then, why does it always appear that way from wherever you are at in it always...?

You're still mistakenly assuming we're at the center of the universe, when earth's age is 4~ billion years, so it doesn't add up, we'd have to be the same age or remarkably close (like say...10 billion years, taking 3 billion for the solar system to form). Where would we get the notion that we are at the center of the expansion? No one remotely says that, we determined the big bang in terms of cosmic radiation and such, not relative to our planet as the source

And right now currently, we can only see 46.5 billion light years outward from our present location, but we also know there is "more", possible much more, K...

You still haven't substantiated this claim of 46.5 billion light years, that's distance, not time, it's not comparable to the 13+ billion years versus the light years, which is demonstrably distance that can vary greatly in terms of galactic expansion.
 
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SkyWriting

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Okay, to keep this short, I was wondering if anyone had a genuine theory/explanation to this concept I see a lot;

Eternal universe = false, because we need God for the universe to exist
God's existence = He always existed, thus created the universe

There's kind of a...contradiction here? A 'special plead' or exception for God, as I've heard some put it. It's an interesting concept and I wondered if anyone else has put much thought into it.

We say that the universe cannot be infinite or eternal because it needed God to exist, yet we have no explanation for how or when God came into existence.

I'd prefer replies from people who are at least semi-versed in cosmology, so no quoting the bible to base arguments :) (which is funny coming from a Christian)

God exists outside of time. The created Cosmos seem to have been created by Him.
The fact that entropy is increasing, or energy becoming less usable, points to a beginning.
 
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muichimotsu

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God would be, by definition, what would not need to come into being. Would not need a beginning. That's an attribute we usually think of Him, the Eternal One.

Existence itself. Ground of Being.

But the specific cosmology would not matter, whether this universe came into being suddenly or merely transformed in a bounce such as this speculative theory (just one of many speculative theories):
https://phys.org/news/2016-07-big.html

Any cosmology fits fine. He is able.
In short you just admitted God is an entity that just conveniently fits in because it's defined in such a way that it doesn't have to follow the rules established otherwise.
 
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muichimotsu

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God exists outside of time. The created Cosmos seem to have been created by Him.
The fact that entropy is increasing, or energy becoming less usable, points to a beginning.
No it points to the universe being a closed system, but not that the beginning that we observe is the absolute beginning, because that would require a scale we can't investigate
 
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Neogaia777

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Every point can be considered "in the center" because all of space is expanding.
So it seems anyway.
But that means there is or was no center, etc...

And yes, it is very much as "so it seems" with a lot of it anyway...

People have made a lot of assumptions, many of which could have been wrong...?

Going to post some of my notes on this is a second...

God Bless!
 
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