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An Atheist's Critique of … some other current Atheists

razzelflabben

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Anything at all? Like what? What do you find particularly ambiguous about Matt 5, or some of the other biblical ‘sin lists’?
This is why I tried to clarify the point I am trying to make because this suggests you don't yet understand what I am suggesting. I totally believe that there are absolutes as to "proper" christian behavior. In fact, we are called to Love with a I Cor. 13 Love which I have been studying in depth full time for many years now and will tell you it is not what most people assume it to mean. But I digress. My point is not that there are not absolutes but that very few people especially those that offer judgments of christians, that know what those absolutes are.

Does that clarify what I am saying for you because your questions seem to be foreign to what I am saying...
 
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Tom 1

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This is why I tried to clarify the point I am trying to make because this suggests you don't yet understand what I am suggesting. I totally believe that there are absolutes as to "proper" christian behavior. In fact, we are called to Love with a I Cor. 13 Love which I have been studying in depth full time for many years now and will tell you it is not what most people assume it to mean. But I digress. My point is not that there are not absolutes but that very few people especially those that offer judgments of christians, that know what those absolutes are.

Does that clarify what I am saying for you because your questions seem to be foreign to what I am saying...

Yes, that does clarify it, I did misunderstand. Thanks for the clarification.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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oh I agree but my point and I am not sure at this moment if that point is understood or not which is why I am responding further...is that it isn't just the atheist thinking the text is wrong but it is compounded by the atheist (and unfortunately many christians) don't have a clue what it says as to how to make such a claim to start out with.

So let me think of an example just so we are communicating. Let's say I have Anne Franks diary....let's say that I believe that diary to be a hoax, no problem. So I enter a conversation with someone about the contents of the diary but in truth I have no idea what is in the diary to begin with. Not only am I going to be wrong in my assertions of it's authenticity but because I know nothing about it I add to my mistakes a lack of knowing what to point to as the reason I think it is a hoax. It's taking the problem and multiplying it by 2....that is my point. Just because you believe it to be a hoax does not give you a right to not read and understand what it says so that you can use it to judge others. In fact, for the atheist, trying to judge others on something they deem false without understanding what it says to start out with makes no sense but also makes them look totally ridiculous all the while they boast of being intelligent. If it was any other work they would be trying to assassinate the boaster but since it is the Bible they feel justified. That is my point. By not knowing what the library of books called the Bible really says and teaches they are piling insult on injury when they make claims as the OP talks about. Let's see another way to say this...we can take the OP opinion and muliply it because frankly he only covered half the problem as I see it.
Yes, I can see the applicability of your points, razzleflabben. Perhaps GMS gets ahead of himself in assuming that he's got the Bible "all figured out"?
 
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cloudyday2

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I think the problem might be too many people trying to read their own wisdom in between the lines....just a thought for what it's worth. when we stop reading for comprehension and start reading our own ideas "between the lines" we end up with something totally different than what was intended by the writer.
We need to remember that Jesus and his earliest disciples didn't write the gospels. So if we want to know what Jesus thought, then we absolutely MUST read between the lines.
 
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razzelflabben

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We need to remember that Jesus and his earliest disciples didn't write the gospels. So if we want to know what Jesus thought, then we absolutely MUST read between the lines.
or actually read His words as they are recorded....;)

Jesus was a Jew a fact that seems way too many people forget...as such anything He said, is related to that belief and understanding of what they got right and what they got wrong about God and the future.
 
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Tom 1

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We need to remember that Jesus and his earliest disciples didn't write the gospels. So if we want to know what Jesus thought, then we absolutely MUST read between the lines.

I’m not sure if that follows - if you don’t believe that any of the original 11 had any input into the written gospels, then what would ‘reading between the lines’ get you?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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We need to remember that Jesus and his earliest disciples didn't write the gospels. So if we want to know what Jesus thought, then we absolutely MUST read between the lines.

What does "reading between the lines" mean precisely in your view here, Cloudy?

Rather than simply "reading between the lines," I'd say we'd be more realistic (and academic) to apply a full-fledge discipline of Hermeneutics, and by this, I do not only mean that we should apply 'Biblical Hermeneutics,' but it includes this. In fact, by this I mean we should apply the more expansive consideration that color and contextual our understanding of both religion in general, as well as of Christianity and the Bible specifically, as suggested by Dr. Jens Zimmermann:

 
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razzelflabben

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What does "reading between the lines" mean precisely in your view here, Cloudy?

Rather than simply "reading between the lines," I'd say we'd be more realistic (and academic) to apply a full-fledge discipline of Hermeneutics, and by this, I do not only mean that we should apply 'Biblical Hermeneutics,' but it includes this. In fact, by this I mean we should apply the more expansive consideration that color and contextual our understanding of both religion in general, as well as of Christianity and the Bible specifically, as suggested by Dr. Jens Zimmerman:

lol I suggested once that we needed to read scripture using the common literary rules we were taught in elementary school and you would have thought I killed someone the reactions I got...
 
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bhsmte

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So, do we want to say that there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that delineates some minimal [epistemic as well as moral] line that a person has to stay within in order to be considered a Christian?

I would think, you would get a myriad of different opinions on that.
 
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cloudyday2

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Practicing brotherly love to the extent that Jesus has commanded we do isn't what gets people crucified, at least not most of the time. I'm not sure where you're getting that idea.
What I mean here is that your average Christian has a family, a home, a car, a job, food to eat, vacations, etc.

There are people who don't have these things. If the Christian practices brotherly love I can tell you what is going to happen - the Christian will be poor ALONG WITH the poor he/she was hoping to help. Unfortunately that is how it works in my experience. We can choose to let our brothers be crucified alone or we can get nailed-up beside them.

But Jesus seemed to be pretty extreme and radical IMO. If the Son of Man returns and I have food in my belly while my brother is hungry, then I need to have a good economic argument for how that benefits my brother as well as benefiting me. If I can't explain that food in my belly, then I'm in big trouble.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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What I mean here is that your average Christian has a family, a home, a car, a job, food to eat, vacations, etc.

There are people who don't have these things. If the Christian practices brotherly love I can tell you what is going to happen - the Christian will be poor ALONG WITH the poor he/she was hoping to help. Unfortunately that is how it works in my experience. We can choose to let our brothers be crucified alone or we can get nailed-up beside them.
I disagree. I think a thorough and ongoing (but never really complete) consideration of the contents of the Bible won't imply what you (somehow) imply it does. I see no reason to interpret all of this in the way that you do. In which case, I'd have to ask: from where did you learn to read and interpret ANY book, not only the Bible? Obviously, from our many previous discussions, you have demonstrated that you have a good mind in you, one that is at least academically inclined, and I much appreciate that. You've even pointed out some good books as resources over the past several months. However, I'm not seeing that you've studied anything dealing with the overall drawing together of these things, such as is available in the study of Hermeneutics.

But Jesus seemed to be pretty extreme and radical IMO. If the Son of Man returns and I have food in my belly while my brother is hungry, then I need to have a good economic argument for how that benefits my brother as well as benefiting me. If I can't explain that food in my belly, then I'm in big trouble.
I don't think Jesus was that extreme, even if some of the things He seemed to say were radical for the age in which He lived. You make it sound like it's "either/or": either I eat, OR they eat. We can't just all eat together? Really?

The fact is, a lot of the starvation and neediness that manifests itself in the human world is due to crappy politics, crappy economics, as well as because of social contentions between groups and classes, not merely because a number of Christians happen to "fail" in following through with their Christian duties.
 
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cloudyday2

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I don't think Jesus was that extreme, even if some of the things He seemed to say were radical for the age in which He lived. You make it sound like it's "either/or": either I eat, OR they eat. We can't just all eat together? Really?
Trust me it's EITHER let your brother drown OR grab his hand and sink with him. My father used to say "poor people have poor ways". You can reach out your hand to help and they simply pull you under with them. It doesn't matter how strong you might be. But surely Jesus would reach out His hand - don't you think? Jesus wouldn't care if He went to the bottom with His brother. Christianity isn't about succeeding in this life or even surviving in this life. That's what I mean by crucifying yourself.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Trust me it's EITHER let your brother drown OR grab his hand and sink with him. My father used to say "poor people have poor ways". You can reach out your hand to help and they simply pull you under with them. It doesn't matter how strong you might be. But surely Jesus would reach out His hand - don't you think? Jesus wouldn't care if He went to the bottom with His brother. Christianity isn't about succeeding in this life or even surviving in this life. That's what I mean by crucifying yourself.

That's your own spin on both the nature of humanity (as you have probably experienced it), and on your understanding of what Jesus is saying. In contradistinction to your apparently dichotomous thinking and interpretation, I think in terms of contexts and continuums. For instance, while Jesus said to the Rich Young Ruler "give up all you have," to His disciples (which the Rich Guy wasn't), Jesus said "Lend to your enemies and to your neighbors, expecting nothing back." He didn't say to His disciples, "just hand over all your cash to the people of the world and shut the heck up--I have Spoken!"

I'm sorry that life for some people is really tough. However, I can understand some level of the difficulty since I had to deal with a severely mentally ill mother while growing up as a boy, with relatives (none Christian) who didn't understand or didn't give hoot. This problem not only affected the mental health of my dad, my sister and myself, as well as damage our social connections in the world, it also apparently became a constant and deep drain upon what money my dad--the only one working, really--could scrape together to feed us kids and to attempt to care for my mother with all of her problems that were going on. And it all really sucked, and for a very long time. I'm talking about this as it reflects a couple of decades of time here.

So, I do understand some of the complications of the social world, such as it is. But with all that said, when I became a Christian at 17, and essentially read the Bible for the first time in my life, even then, I could see that Jesus wasn't saying that we each had to deprecate ourselves in such a way that we become useless to ourselves and to our own families and neighbors. At that time, "taking up my cross" meant for me to help my family as best I could, even with what very little resources--educationally, financially and socially speaking--I had.
 
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bhsmte

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That's your own spin on both the nature of humanity (as you have probably experienced it), and on your understanding of what Jesus is saying. In contradistinction to your apparently dichotomous thinking and interpretation, I think in terms of contexts and continuums. For instance, while Jesus said to the Rich Young Ruler "give up all you have," to His disciples (which the Rich Guy wasn't), Jesus said "Lend to your enemies and to your neighbors, expecting nothing back." He didn't say to His disciples, "just hand over all your cash to the people of the world and shut the heck up--I have Spoken!"

I'm sorry that life for some people is really tough. However, I can understand some level of the difficulty since I had to deal with a severely mentally ill mother while growing up as a boy, with relatives (none Christian) who didn't understand or didn't give hoot. This problem not only affected the mental health of my dad, my sister and myself, as well as damage our social connections in the world, it also apparently became a constant and deep drain upon what money my dad--the only one working, really--could scrape together to feed us kids and to attempt to care for my mother with all of her problems that were going on. And it all really sucked, and for a very long time. I'm talking about this as it reflects a couple of decades of time here.

So, I do understand some of the complications of the social world, such as it is. But with all that said, when I became a Christian at 17, and essentially read the Bible for the first time in my life, even then, I could see that Jesus wasn't saying that we each had to deprecate ourselves in such a way that we become useless to ourselves and to our own families and neighbors. At that time, "taking up my cross" meant for me to help my family as best I could, even with what very little resources--educationally, financially and socially speaking--I had.

The different "spins" on what many claim Jesus stood for, are too many to count.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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The different "spins" on what many claim Jesus stood for, are too many to count.

Sure, but this doesn't mean they can't be run through the hermeneutical washer ... again. Remember that thing about the "Hermeneutical Circle"?
 
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bhsmte

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Sure, but this doesn't mean they cant be run the washer ... again.

Sure. The thing is though, faith beliefs and or interpretations of certain scripture, involves personal subjectivity to a good level. People have to somehow reconcile what they conclude in their own mind and when enough subjectivity is involved, these conclusions tend to be heavily influenced, by personal psychological needs.
 
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Sure. The thing is though, faith beliefs and or interpretations of certain scripture, involves personal subjectivity to a good level. People have to somehow reconcile what they conclude in their own mind and when enough subjectivity is involved, these conclusions tend to be heavily influenced, by personal psychological needs.

Sorry, I had edited my previous post just before you posted. I'll just reprint what I intended to say:

Sure, but this doesn't mean they can't be run through the hermeneutical washer ... again. Remember that thing about the "Hermeneutical Circle"?​
 
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razzelflabben

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Sure. The thing is though, faith beliefs and or interpretations of certain scripture, involves personal subjectivity to a good level. People have to somehow reconcile what they conclude in their own mind and when enough subjectivity is involved, these conclusions tend to be heavily influenced, by personal psychological needs.
If we accept this premise to be true, then doesn't that make the OP assumption even more troubling? IOW's the same atheist that judges the christian has no idea what that christian believes thus their judgment would be flawed from the beginning to the end. Seems to me the only way an atheist could justify such a judgment would be if there are across the board absolutes and that they know them intimately...
 
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