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An Article I wrote on the ESV

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by Cody2, Jun 7, 2014.

  1. brandplucked

    brandplucked Member Supporter

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    A translation can be inspired.


    Can a Translation be the inspired words of God?

    Can a Translation be Inspired and Infallible? Seminarians and bible agnostics say No, but the Bible says Yes. Whom are you going to believe, God or unbelieving men??

    I am frequently told by modern bible version proponents that no translation can be inspired and that only the originals were inspired. This may be what they learned in seminary or from some other Bible teacher they happen to admire, but is it the truth?

    Most Christians will affirm that the Bible is our rule of faith and practice. It is a little self contradictory to stand in the pulpit and say the word of God is inspired, when in his heart the pastor knows he is not referring to any book here on this earth that people can hold in their hands and believe. He really should say what he believes - that the word of God WAS inspired at one time but we no longer have it, so the best we can do is hope we have a close approximation of what God probably meant to tell us.

    It also seems a bit inconsistent to say he believes the originals were inspired, when he has never seen them, they never were together in one single book, and they no longer exist anyway. How does he know they were inspired? He accepts this by faith. Yet he seems to lack the faith to actually believe that God could do exactly what He said He would do with His words. God said He would preserve them and that heaven and earth would pass away but His words would not pass away.

    So, if the Bible itself is our rule of faith and practice, does it teach us a translation can be the inspired words of God? The answer is an emphatic Yes, and it does so many times.

    In the Book of Genesis, chapters 42-45, we have the record of Joseph's reunion with his brethren. That Joseph spoke Egyptian instead of Hebrew is evident by Genesis 42:23 "And they knew not that Joseph understood them; for he spake unto them by an interpreter." Joseph spoke in Egyptian yet his words are translated and recorded in another language, which turns out to be the inspired words of God.

    A translation does not have to be a "word for word" literal carry over into another language for it to be the inspired word of God. If we have the God given text and the God given meaning of that text communicated by way of another language, as I firmly believe we do in the King James Bible, it is still the inspired word of God.

    God's words are like water in a vessel. If the same water is poured out into another vessel, even a vessel of a different shape and size, and there is no addition of foreign matter or subtraction of substance, it is the same water.

    Again we see the same thing in Exodus chapters 4 through 14 where Moses confronts Pharaoh and speaks with him face to face. Pharaoh does not speak Hebrew, so Moses undoubtedly uses the Egyptian language in his verbal exchanges with him, yet the whole series of conversations is recorded in another inspired translation.

    In the book of Ezra chapter 4:7-16 we see another clear example of where a rather lengthy letter written in the Syrian language is translated into inspired Hebrew. In Ezra 4:7-8 we read where the enemies of God's people wrote a letter "in the Syrian tongue" to persuade king Artaxerxes to demand that the Jews cease from their work of re-building the house of the Lord in Jerusalem. The translated words of this letter are found written in verses 11 all the way through verse 16. Read the entire passage to see that what was originally written in Syrian was then translated and recorded in the Hebrew language.

    Ezra 4:7-11 And in the days of Artaxerxes wrote Bishlam, Mithredath, Tabeel, and the rest of their companions, unto Artaxerxes king of Persia; and the writing of the letter was written in the Syrian tongue, and interpreted in the Syrian tongue. ... And the rest of the nations whom the great and noble Asnappar brought over, and set in the cities of Samaria, and the rest that are on this side the river, and at such a time. This is the copy of the letter that they sent unto him, even unto Artaxerxes the king; Thy servants the men on this side the river, and at such a time..."

    Here we clearly see that the original Hebrew autograph of Ezra included a portion that was both a TRANSLATION of another foreign language and a COPY of that other foreign language, yet it was and is the inspired words of the living God.

    In Acts 22 we see another clear example of how a translation can be the inspired words of God. Acts 21:40 tells us: "And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, HE SPAKE UNTO THEM IN THE HEBREW TONGUE, SAYING...". There then follows a lengthly sermon of 21 entire verses preached by Paul in the Hebrew tongue, yet not a word of this sermon is recorded in Hebrew but in inspired Greek. Was Paul's sermon inspired? Undoubtedly. But God also inspired the translation of this sermon into another language.

    If no translation can be inspired of God, then how do those who hold this unbiblical position explain all the Old Testament quotes found in the New Testament? They were originally inspired in Hebrew but then the Holy Ghost took these scores of verses and translated them into another inspired language. Not only that, but the Holy Ghost sometimes did not use a strictly literal word for word rendering. God sometimes adds a little more detail or explains further or makes a different application of the original verse to a new situation. This is how God does it and what the Bible itself teaches us about inspired translations.

    Brother James Melton has written a very good article on why he believes the King James Bible is the true word of God. In his article he mentions what the true Holy Bible says about the word "to translate" - How I Know That The King James Bible Is The Word Of God by James Melton

    Brother Melton writes: The words "translate" and "translated" occur three times in the Bible, and GOD is the Translator each time. The scholars insist that the KJV cannot be infallible, because it is "only a translation." Do you suppose that such scholars have checked II Samuel 3:10, Colossians 1:13, and Hebrews 11:5 to see what GOD has to say about translating?

    In II Samuel 3:10 we are told that it was God Who translated Saul's kingdom to David. We are told in Colossians 1:13 that Christians have been translated into the kingdom of Jesus Christ, and Hebrews 11:5 tells us that God translated Enoch that he should not see death. God was the One doing the translating each time. What's the point? The point is that a translation CAN be perfect, if God is involved in the translating.

    When the New Testament writers would quote the Old Testament (Mt. 1:23; Mk. 1:2; Lk. 4:4; Jn. 15:25; Acts 1:20; 7:42; I Cor. 2:9; Gal. 3:13, etc.), they had to TRANSLATE from Hebrew to Greek, because the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, but THEY wrote in Greek. So, if a translation cannot be infallible, then EVEN THE NEW TESTAMENT IN THE "ORIGINAL GREEK" ISN'T INFALLIBLE, because it contains translations from the Hebrew text! - (end of quotes from brother Melton. See his article. How I Know That The King James Bible Is The Word Of God by James Melton It is very good!)

    Which language did the Lord Jesus Christ speak while He was here on earth, Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic or a combination of the three? No one knows for sure, but we do know that He spoke to Paul in the Hebrew tongue yet His words were translated into Greek. "And when we were all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul. why persecutest thou me? It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." There then follows another four long verses all spoken in the Hebrew tongue by our Lord, yet none of it is recorded in Hebrew but is translated into another language.

    " And that from a child thou hast known the HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. ALL SCRIPTURE IS GIVEN BY INSPIRATION OF GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:15,16.

    It should be noted that Timothy did not have "the originals" yet what he had in his home is referred to as inspired scripture. In fact, in no case of all the references in the New Testament to the Scriptures that people read and believed, is it ever referring to "the originals only".

    So when you hear someone tell you with firm conviction: "No translation can be inspired. Only the originals were inspired" you should know that he didn't get this teaching out of the Bible or from God. If a professing Christian chooses not to believe in the possibility of an inspired translation, he does so contrary to many God given examples in the Bible itself.

    My view and understanding is that ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God 2 Tim.3:16. If it is true Scripture, then it is given by inspiration of God. You cannot have an Uninspired Scripture. You can have a false reading, a false text or verse, but it is not Scripture.


    God's Scripture is still given by inspiration of God even when it is placed into a foreign language. There is still a lot of Scripture even in the fake, imperfect Vatican Versions or a corrupt version like the NKJV. Truth is mixed with untruth; Scripture is mixed with man made readings.

    However "the" Greek is not my final authority. There is no such thing as "the" Greek or even "the" Hebrew. All who go that route end up not having a complete and inerrant Bible. I do believe that God worked in history and gave us His perfect and inerrant words in the English text of the King James Bible.

    You don't have to agree with me or believe that way to be a Christian, But I am convinced that if you believe otherwise, then you simply do NOT have an inerrant Scripture for a Bible. You have a mixed bag of Scripture and non-Scripture.


    Can a Translation of God’s Word Be Perfect?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYWvs8XWfhs

    10 minute video by Brandon Staggs. Well done; simple and to the point.
     
  2. Keachian

    Keachian On Sabbatical

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    Sigh, proof by verbosity, someone has to tackle it, may as well be me.

    Nope, no external or internal evidence testifies to its authenticity, it's not even that good a verse to rest the doctrine of the trinity on, of course no one in the Arian controversy used it as a defense of Trinitarianism so that's that belief scuttled.

    If you're going to give MSS "evidence" like this a bit more contextualisation is necessary; 629 is a parallel text with the Latin as such the Greek has been conformed to the Latin. Any from the 16th Century or later are irrelevant as they are post-printing press, 88, 177, 221, 429, and 636 all contain it within a marginal gloss dated about the 15th or 16th Century.
    src: Comma Johanneum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    As such the MSS evidence is damning even more so considering the Erasmian Controversy surrounding his exclusion of it from the first two editions of his Greek New Testament, this is further why 16th Century or later texts are not relevant to the discussion of the verses legitimacy as Codex Montfortianus (61) is supposed to be a forgery to force Erasmus to include the verse.

    So the TR is not the MT, thanks for admitting that.

    Double standards do you see yours?

    This shows rather a lack of understanding of the Textual Critical method, no reference to why one reading over another is favoured such as two families of MSS argreeing against the MT reading, etc.

    Ergo a Catholic reading, or at least it would be if you held to your standards you use to criticise the CT.

    ie. I will use the Vulgate if my Tradition needs it to validate my beliefs.

    <snip>
    More of the same.

    Eh, So why do we need 5:7 if the Trinity is in 4:13-14? I could suppose that roses smell like toeses, but that wouldn't get us anywhere, you have failed your "external" evidence and the witness of the Trinity throughout Scripture nullifies any need for us to Add to the Word of God here.

    Misunderstanding Greek grammar a common trait among those that are blind to their traditions. The placement of the plural-masculine within the Comma itself before the "on earth" nullifies this argument, you can't argue that the grammar is fixed by the inclusion of the comma if it then goes on to commit the same "improper" use of Greek grammar that demands it.

    <snip>
    Why is there more "external" evidence in the "internal" evidence section, I find this presentation completely uncompelling.
     
  3. Keachian

    Keachian On Sabbatical

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  4. BelCantoBaptist

    BelCantoBaptist Newbie

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    Did the Westcott and Hort were occultists and heretics line come up again? I'm pretty sure I saw it. The truth of the matter is that Wescott and Hort were not occultists nor were they heretics. They did hold to paedobaptism and other Anglican views which Reformed Baptists like myself may disagree with but they were in no sense heretics who denied the Trinity or the deity of Christ. Both men were conservative, Anglican churchmen who wrote extensively against the anti-theistic higher criticism coming from the European seminaries, particularly Germany. Dr. Westcott later became the Bishop of Durham. KJV advocates vilify Westcott and Hort because their Greek text was a break away from the Received Text used in the translation of the KJV and included what they consider to be heretical manuscripts from the Alexandrian family.I would commend the research of Mr. James May who has done the Bible believing Church a great favor by pouring over some 4,000 pages of Dr. Westcott's writings and shown the manufactured revisionism against this Christian scholar on the part of KJV onlyists.

    B.F. Westcott asserted the deity of Jesus Christ so many different times, in so many different ways, under such a variety of headings, that writing a paper to prove his position may appear to be an exercise in the obvious ... It is so plain that Westcott believed in the deity of Christ that all who read Westcott's writings (or profess to read them) have no excuse for claiming otherwise.

    All anyone has to do is just read through his two major commentaries, Hebrews and the Gospel of John, and it will become quickly apparent that Dr. Westcott affirmed the divinity of our Lord.
     
  5. Awaken4Christ

    Awaken4Christ Guest

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    Are only English speakers saved?
     
  6. Skala

    Skala I'm a Saint. Not because of me, but because of Him

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    Fact: The KJVO adds words to the Bible.

    But it's still good enough for KJVOnlyists!
     
  7. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Could it be the dialect of the Alexandrian Greek,or the onslaught on the deity of Christ provided in the Critical Text ?
    Trying to disprove the validity of the King James is not the point.

    It is the overall context of verse that I focus on.

    3 bible versions 1 verse Hebrews 11 v1 I lined them up the other versions completely change
    Faith to a debatable subject.

    Instead of evidence one says conviction the other convince.

    It takes a good theologian to get it wrong because they over think the simplicity of God's word therefore they are always in a debate and never look at the truth.

    You can interpret the Bible so much that no one will ever understand truth or agree on what
    A Bible should say.
     
  8. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
    Mt 9:13

    for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

    For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

    Mt 18:11

    For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

    OMITTED

    footnote casts doubt

    Mt 19:17

    Why callest thou me good?

    Why do you ask me about what is good?

    Why are you asking me about what is good?

    Mt 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
    Mt 25:13

    Ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    You do not know the day or the hour.

    You do not know the day nor the hour.

    Mt 27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, "They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots." When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots And when they had crucified Him, they divided up His garments among themselves by casting lots
    Mk 7:19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body. (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated? (Thus He declared all foods clean.)
    Mk 10:24

    how hard it is for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!

    how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!

    how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God!

    Lk 2:33

    And Joseph and his mother...

    The child's father and mother...

    His father and mother....

    Lk 4:4

    Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

    Man does not live on bread alone.

    Man shall not live on bread alone.

    Lk 4:8

    Get thee behind me, Satan.

    OMITTED

    OMITTED

    Lk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. He said to them, When you pray, say: "Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come... And He said to them, When you pray, say: "Father, hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come...
    Jn 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known. No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
    Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man which is in heaven. No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven&#8212;the Son of Man. No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
    Jn 6:47

    He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

    He who believes has everlasting life.

    He who believes has eternal life.

    Jn 8:9

    And when they heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out.

    those who heard began to go away.

    when they heard it, they began to go out one by one.

    Jn 9:4

    I must work the works of him that sent me.

    We must do the work of him who sent me.

    We must work the works of Him who sent Me.

    Jn 10:30

    I and my Father are one

    I and the Father are one.

    I and the Father are one.

    Jn 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me. A little while, and you will no longer see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me.
    Ac 2:30

    that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    he would place one of his descendants on his throne.

    to seat one of his descendants upon his throne.

    Ac 8:37

    If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    OMITTED

    footnote casts doubt (some editions just omit it)

    Ac 23:9

    Let us not fight against God.

    OMITTED

    OMITTED

    Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus
    Rom 13:9

    Thou shalt not bear false witness.

    OMITTED

    OMITTED

    I Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
    Co 1:14

    In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.

    In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

    In whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

    1Ti 3:16

    God was manifest in the flesh.

    He appeared in a body.

    He who was revealed in the flesh.

    1Pe 1:22

    Ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit.

    you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth.

    Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls.

    1Jo 4:3

    And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God.

    But every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.

    And every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God.

    I Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. For there are three that testify: For there are three that testify:
    Re 1:11 I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book... which said: "Write on a scroll... saying, "Write in a book...
    Re 5:14

    Four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    .the elders fell down and worshipped.

    .the elders fell down and worshipped.

    Re 20:9

    Fire came down from God out of heaven.

    Fire came down from heaven.

    Fire came down from heaven.

    Re 21:24

    And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it.

    The nations will walk by its light.

    And the nations shall walk by its light.

    Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life ... Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life ... Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life...
    Bible researcher
     
  9. now faith

    now faith Veteran Supporter

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    I guess I should not worry about changes and omission,even if they are relevant to the Deity
     
  10. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

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    Do you have a link for this copy and paste?
     
  11. Hentenza

    Hentenza I will fear no evil for You are with me Supporter

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    Studying the changes and omissions using primary evidence (most of which is online these days) will provide the understanding.
     
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