An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

ClementofA said:

Why bother? The most obvious reason is to avoid going to "hell".

Evidently you haven't read the articles i posted:



Not true. Search the forums. I've answered every verse you could think of & many others that people are deluded into thinking they oppose universalism have posted. Most of them are really lame, actually, like those you just posted. And from the rest of your response it's evident you are poorly informed on the subject (i.e. universalism). This answers your misconceptions:


https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
http://evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/2008/04/responses-to-evangelical-objections-to.html

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mmksparbud said:

So you go to hell---big deal--according to you, we will be saved after that anyway.

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mmksparbud said:

I have no desire to be well informed on your misconceptions about salvation.

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mmksparbud said:

You completely ignore all the passages that state otherwise---

Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

You only want to take the words that you want to hear and try to twist them to you own theory.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

For crying out loud-----if everyone is to be saved---why bother with giving anyone His word, why bother with living a Godly life, why bother with even trying to do what is right, why bother doing anything in this life at all including baptism, going to church, loving your neighbor?? Nothing of it would be of any consequence at all. just live for yourself and the heck with it, it doesn't matter---even Hitler gets a 2nd chance after death!!! I suppose even Hitler would get a 2nd chance--not to mention Satan---poor guy is just misguided I suppose. Jesus didn't have to go through any of the stuff He did---He didn't have to live a sinless life. He did not have to be our example of what kind of life we are to lead---He just had to slash His wrists and that would have taken care of the whole thing.
Try praying for the Holly Spirit and then throw out the trash you've been reading and just READ HIS WORD!!!

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mmksparbud said:

You completely ignore all the passages that state otherwise---

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ClementofA said:

If you were there now, it would change your attitude & would be a big deal. You wouldn't be saying "big deal". Jesus spoke of "hell" in terms of weeping & gnashing of teeth", not people there partying & saying "big deal". Scripture speaks of torments to/into "the ages of the ages".

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

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mmksparbud said:

Point is--we get out! Ya--some pain, but then it's over and we live forever. Now your are starting to sound as though it is for a very long time before we get out---so we get tormented for a few centuries--sounding more like everlasting punishment now.

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mmksparbud said:

It wouldn't take that long to change someone's mind and have them praising the Lord to get out quicker.

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mmksparbud said:

Just remember one thing, if what Christianity teaches about hell is right, and there is no 2nd chance, it'll be you gnashing for sending others there.

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mmksparbud said:

If you're right--I still have nothing to worry about. I surrendered to Jesus regardless of whether there is a hell, not to stay out of it. The object is life with Jesus---not staying out of hell.

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ClementofA said:

A few centuries would be nothing compared to endless torments. There is an infinite difference between a God Who inflicts endless torments (or annihilation) & a God Who does not.

Punishment of the loving Omnipotent God is corrective. It's not the endless, sadistic, pointless, hopeless, useless, insane, tortures of a madman...or an endless Hitler-like gas chamber as in the endless annihilation theory.

Hitler killed people by gassing them to death. He couldn't keep them dead. OTOH in the endless annihilation theory "God" annihilates those he doesn't like and keeps them annihilated for all eternity. So it's just like an endless Hitler-like gas chamber. Only infinitely worse than what Hitler could achieve.

You are here to propagate the endless Hitler ("total eradicator") God you believe in. You slander the One True God, Love Omnipotent, making Him into an eternal Hitler who not only gasses to death those He doesn't love, but makes sure the Hitler-like gas effect lasts for eternity. Thus your "God", unlike the True God of the Sacred Scriptures, is a Hitler for eternity. The eternal Hitler "God".

It seems absurd that Love Omnipotent the Good, who doeth Good, is Merciful, & a Savior, even the Savior of all mankind, creation & the cosmos, for Whom nothing is impossible, Who created a universe that spans a distance of billions of light years, is a sadist plus being an eternal Hitler-like gas chamber guy to all beings who haven't met His expiry date, & has an extremely soon coming expiry date on His love (not much longer than the expiry date on a carton of milk), & is impotent to save, or just too stupid in how He created those beings who are created to succeed in His will that all of them be saved.

“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols

“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn

"It's tempting for me to believe that God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."

According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.

Love will conquer all.

As someone said:

"annihilating someone DOES NOT RESPECT THEIR FREE WILL!"




That statement is nothing but assumption, human opinion based on nothing, no facts, nada. Are you God that you would know? Would God accept anything less than true repentance from the heart?



Why would i be gnashing? I believe in Christ.

How could i send others to "hell"? Don't they have free will?



Irrelevant. No Christian is headed to "hell" as long as they continue in the faith. OTOH, if they are living in sin or not sure of their salvation, then they may have a lot to worry about.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

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Ripheus27 said:

Well, I assume there is more to all of this than a literal reading would allow. For example, the Book of Revelation talks of being tormented in the presence of the Lamb forever, but the Lamb Himself elsewhere says that the damned will be sent away from His presence. So clearly something else is going on, even in the case of an endless punishment, than the straight descriptions have it. However, I am not sure what is supposed to be going on, neither do I know what any of this has to do with the command to spread the good news across the Earth, or God intending all to be saved, or whatever. I just don't know.

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Pneuma3 said:

Actually they say the same thing, from his presence is like when we get heat from a fire, not away from the fire but in the presence of the fire.

Well which do you believe is the good news?
God will eternally torment much of his creation.
God will annihilate much of his creation
or God will save all of his creation

I don't see how the first two can be considered good news.

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mmksparbud said:

Yes!!! But they have to believe!!!!
. Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh_8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Luk_8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Act_13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Talk about adding to the word---where does it say that there is a 2nd chance after death for salvation? Or that you can be saved without believing in Jesus??

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Pneuma3 said:

What happened to Sodom is given as an example of the judgment of fire and brimstone/2nd death.
And we read that Sodom will be restored.
Thus the example given in scripture does indeed show that after the judgment of fire and brimestone/2nd death reconciliation will indeed take place.

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HatGuy said:

I do think that a lot of this now delves into atonement theories, because now we're discussing the details of what it means for Jesus to "pay the price".

One probably does face the conundrum you're highlighting if they subscribed to penal substitution alone, or substitutionary atonement or satisfaction theory alone.

Personally, for me, I don't subscribe to a single atonement theory but rather see wisdom in trying to get them to work together - especially the major theories. So given that I subscribe to both Christus Victor and substitutionary atonement, I see Jesus "taking our place" as a much more true statement than "paying the price". I think this is more Biblical too.

By "taking our place" it's not that He pays the price (like writes out a check) but that He is the price paid. Given that He gives His life to the heavenly court who could not find anything against Him, He was not subject to being punished. Therefore, all who are "in Him" are not punished because He cannot be accused.

Jesus defeated the accusations against us by giving his life for sinners. The devil, sin, and death - and even the Law which always accuses - are defeated by Jesus. This means he did not need to pay the price for the second death because he could not be accused of sin. So he was raised for our justification - all those who trust Him and His work are "put in Him" in the heavenly court, like as if He now is their advocate or their family head. All your sins are on His account, but His account is perfect because He is perfect.

There's probably a dozen angles one could think of this but my point is that if you think in one atonement theory alone you'll run into problems, because Jesus was doing far more on the cross than I think we realise.

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mmksparbud said:

It is indeed His resurrection that makes salvation possible otherwise we would stay dead! Again, what has that to do with the concept that everyone will be saved after death??It is clear that Jesus died for all on His death, He died the 1st death--He never died the 2nd death. Or He would never have been resurrected! God does not force salvation on anyone--it has to be accepted. If everyone can be saved after going to hell there is no need to live a Godly life, no need to give God another thought---you all claim we will be saved anyway. So why bother??

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mmksparbud said:

ud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Where does it say Sodom will be restored??? You guys keep saying stuff, but never back it up with scripture.
Sodom is not still burning. Hell is not forever.

Mar_6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Sodom and Gomorrah are still to go before God for that 2nd death judgement.

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Pneuma3 said:

well which would you rater be beaten with many or few stripes?

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mmksparbud said:

What does it matter? In the end you get out and have eternal life with Jesus--according to you. You teach you can live like the devil and still inherit the kingdom on God.

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mmksparbud said:

ud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Where does it say Sodom will be restored??? You guys keep saying stuff, but never back it up with scripture.
Sodom is not still burning. Hell is not forever.

Mar_6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Sodom and Gomorrah are still to go before God for that 2nd death judgement.

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Pneuma3 said:

No what I teach is we reap what we so, no more, no less and once the last farthing has been paid we are freed. Anything more is torment for torments sake and is unjust.

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Pneuma3 said:

Here you seemed to have missed this so I will repost it because it shows by example restoration after the judgment of fire and brimstone/2nd death

Ezek,16
53When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: 54That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. 55When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate. 56For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride, 57Before thy wickedness was discovered, as at the time of thy reproach of the daughters of Syria, and all that are round about her, the daughters of the Philistines, which despise thee round about. 58Thou hast borne thy lewdness and thine abominations, saith the LORD.

The Covenant Remembered

59For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.

60Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant. 61Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant. 62And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD: 63That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.

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mmksparbud said:

I didn't miss it---you missed this by Jesus Himself.
Mat 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Mat 11:24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Sodom got their 1st death -- they still have judgement day and the 2nd death to pay. Again---Jesus never paid the price for the 2nd death.

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