An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

[mmksparbud]

Not true. Search the forums. I've answered every verse you could think of & many others that people are deluded into thinking they oppose universalism have posted. Most of them are really lame, actually, like those you just posted. And from the rest of your response it's evident you are poorly informed on the subject (i.e. universalism). This answers your misconceptions:


https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
http://evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/2008/04/responses-to-evangelical-objections-to.html

Not biblical!! Delusional! It boils down to have a good time---don't worry about being saved or living a Godly life--you will still be saved. Why did Jesus bother with any of it---makes absolutely no sense and comes straight out of the mind of Satan. You guys can't even figure out what to believe---you all have your own versions. You have listened to the opinions of man and not the straight word of God---and leading others down a path of no return.

 

[woobadooba]

How can a God who commands us to love our enemies have plans to torture them in hell for all eternity without the hope of any relief? That's not the God of the Bible. Christians have been duped into believing the false doctrine of eternal torment because they have not learned how to do proper Exegesis.

 

[Pneuma3]

I'm going to just hypothesize here for the sake of discussion.

Firstly, Revelation as a "picture" book (it speaks in pictures) means that it describes the indescribable... Meaning not all it says ought to be taken literally.

Here's the hypothesis. It's possible that there is a spiritual resurrection when you die and it is at that point you are judged and then either experience the second death, or the second resurrection. (Spoken about in Revelation).

in other words, the dead are not raised physically for judgement but only spiritually for judgement. This happens when you die, and is essentially "outside of time". (Revelation offers a sort of linear time line for description, not to be taken literally). Then, second death means complete death; second resurrection to eternal life.

This then could explain how Jesus paid the price of the first death but then was judged favourably as the second Adam and then all those in Him are judged favourably too.

It's worth pondering if Jesus did pay the price of hell or if his substitution in our place is more along the lines of someone winning on our behalf (like a sports game) rather than someone losing the game instead of us losing it.

I offer these merely as thoughts, not as a hill to die on.

Then would that not mean Jesus only paid the price of part of man as man is made up of spirit, soul and body? Is the whole man to be saved or just a part of man?

 

[Pneuma3]

He paid the price for all----if they believe and accept it.

that is adding to the scriptures, He died for ALL

 

[Pneuma3]

Jesus did not pay the 2nd death---the 2nd death is the final death. We all die. We will all be resurrected to face judgement--the saved will be resurrected when Jesus returns---the lost will be resurrected to face damnation and the lake of fire. There is no escape from the 2nd death as Jesus did not pay for that.
Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

why do people suffer the second death if not for sin? Jesus either paid the price for sin or he did not and if death is the punishment for sin and death equals annihilation then Jesus has been annihilated.

 

[Pneuma3]

Kindly quite with all the palaver and quote the verses that state there is salvation after the 2nd death.
There is nothing that saves from the 2nd death---Jesus never paid the price for that. He paid the price for death---never for the 2nd death in hell.

then he never paid the full price.

 

[Pneuma3]

Yes---there will come a day when everything will give praise to God---that happens when all the dead, saved and lost, are standing before God--just before the 2nd death---where does it say that there is a chance for salvation after the 2nd death?

when the second death fell on Sodom and Gomorrah why were they not annihilated?
according to scripture they will be restored, that don't sound like annihilation to me.

 

[Pneuma3]

For crying out loud-----if everyone is to be saved---why bother with giving anyone His word, why bother with living a Godly life, why bother with even trying to do what is right, why bother doing anything in this life at all including baptism, going to church, loving your neighbor?? Nothing of it would be of any consequence at all. just live for yourself and the heck with it, it doesn't matter---even Hitler gets a 2nd chance after death!!! I suppose even Hitler would get a 2nd chance--not to mention Satan---poor guy is just misguided I suppose. Jesus didn't have to go through any of the stuff He did---He didn't have to live a sinless life. He did not have to be our example of what kind of life we are to lead---He just had to slash His wrists and that would have taken care of the whole thing.
Try praying for the Holly Spirit and then throw out the trash you've been reading and just READ HIS WORD!!!

Why preach the gospel at all?


Without a doubt this is one of the most frequent question asked of me, everywhere I post I come across this question.


Here is my answer to this question


For me the reason Jesus was sent and the reason Jesus sends us is to free people through Him from sin and death. Salvation is not complete just because one believes Jesus died for them. Believing is only the starting point on our journey toward full salvation, for we are reconciled by His death, but saved by His life.

All men everywhere are already reconciled by His death, this is a done deal because He died 2000 years ago for all men's reconciliation and mans belief or unbelief CANNOT change this fact. If someone does not believe Jesus died for then simply does not change the fact that He did.

So then all men everywhere have already been reconciled, but not all men are yet saved from sin and death.


Therefore Jesus send us out in order to proclaim His salvation by His LIFE.
His death reconciled all men, but His LIFE is what saves all men, this salvation is not a one time deal as such, but is a long process of walking in His LIFE and forsaking our own. Taking up the cross and following Him and enduring unto the end that we might be saved.


Thus we are told to proclaim His death and therefore His reconciliation for all men as a FACT that cannot be disputed , and we are to do this so that the entire world can have the same hope in His LIFE that we to have. Thus it is not by His death that sin and death are defeated but by His LIFE.

When we witness about that which Jesus done, we are first to tell all men that they have been reconciled because of His death, this fact breathes hope into the world that God does indeed love them. Then after people become aware of the fact of this reconciliation by His death we are to proclaim His resurrection. And it is because of the fact that He was resurrected OUT OF DEATH that the world is given hope of the same resurrection OUT OF DEATH. We are NOT saved from death, we are saved OUT OF DEATH, for it was while we were DEAD in sin that He died and was raised to life again for us.

So the resurrection is a moving from DEATH to LIFE, so as He died for all men, so to did He rise for all men, and this is the gospel of the good new toward ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.

If one believes Jesus died for all men, should it not go without saying that when He rose again that it was for all men also? Can we really separate His death from His resurrection? If so, how then can DEATH be swallowed up of LIFE?

God bless


I wrote this in response to a lady who asked the question if all are saved why preach the gospel at all?


After reading my answer this was her reply back to me.



Dear Pneuma,

I totally agree with your description of the gospel. Yes, we are not only dead in Christ but now alive in Christ, praise God. You are right, Christ's death cannot be separated from His resurrection. It was His resurrection that the disciples preached, you are right. It is His resurrection that is the hope for all mankind. The full gospel is the death and resurrection. I agree He died for all, all are reconciled through His death and all are given life through His resurrection, out of death, as you say. I can't however, get past the point of faith (which is given to us by God in His grace anyway, all have the capacity to believe, or reject) and personal response to accepting this truth for ourselves, as revealed by the Spirit to us. I heard John Bevere give a definition of the word 'believe' in as meaning 'to follow'. Believing (in our terms) is first yes, and then taking up our cross daily and living following Christ, I agree is the full walk of salvation. Again, we can only do any of this by God's grace through faith hey.
I feel the Spirit of God on what you have written and thank you.

 

[Pneuma3]

Not biblical!! Delusional! It boils down to have a good time---don't worry about being saved or living a Godly life--you will still be saved. Why did Jesus bother with any of it---makes absolutely no sense and comes straight out of the mind of Satan. You guys can't even figure out what to believe---you all have your own versions. You have listened to the opinions of man and not the straight word of God---and leading others down a path of no return.

well I would think it is the ones who say God will fail to do that which he set out to do are the ones who are delusional and mock and cause others to mock God.




For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.


Did God sit down and count the cost for the salvation of the world?

After He laid the foundation, Jesus Christ, for that salvation is He unable to finish what He started?

According to those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation He is unable.

Eternal torment and annihilation are mocking God, saying He began to build, and was not able to finish.

 

[Ripheus27]

According to those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation He is unable.

Eternal torment and annihilation are mocking God, saying He began to build, and was not able to finish.

Well, I assume there is more to all of this than a literal reading would allow. For example, the Book of Revelation talks of being tormented in the presence of the Lamb forever, but the Lamb Himself elsewhere says that the damned will be sent away from His presence. So clearly something else is going on, even in the case of an endless punishment, than the straight descriptions have it. However, I am not sure what is supposed to be going on, neither do I know what any of this has to do with the command to spread the good news across the Earth, or God intending all to be saved, or whatever. I just don't know.

 

[mmksparbud]

that is adding to the scriptures, He died for ALL

Yes!!! But they have to believe!!!!
. Joh_1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh_8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Luk_8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Act_13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Talk about adding to the word---where does it say that there is a 2nd chance after death for salvation? Or that you can be saved without believing in Jesus??

 

[mmksparbud]

why do people suffer the second death if not for sin? Jesus either paid the price for sin or he did not and if death is the punishment for sin and death equals annihilation then Jesus has been annihilated.

Jesus did not pay the price of the 2nd death!!! Only the first death! We will all be resurrected from the 1st death, the saved when Jesus returns, the lost at judgement

Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[mmksparbud]

well I would think it is the ones who say God will fail to do that which he set out to do are the ones who are delusional and mock and cause others to mock God.




For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.


Did God sit down and count the cost for the salvation of the world?

After He laid the foundation, Jesus Christ, for that salvation is He unable to finish what He started?

According to those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation He is unable.

Eternal torment and annihilation are mocking God, saying He began to build, and was not able to finish.

He did finish it, at the cross. He died for all---all they have to do is believe and accept it.

Joh_19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

 

[HatGuy]

Then would that not mean Jesus only paid the price of part of man as man is made up of spirit, soul and body? Is the whole man to be saved or just a part of man?

I do think that a lot of this now delves into atonement theories, because now we're discussing the details of what it means for Jesus to "pay the price".

One probably does face the conundrum you're highlighting if they subscribed to penal substitution alone, or substitutionary atonement or satisfaction theory alone.

Personally, for me, I don't subscribe to a single atonement theory but rather see wisdom in trying to get them to work together - especially the major theories. So given that I subscribe to both Christus Victor and substitutionary atonement, I see Jesus "taking our place" as a much more true statement than "paying the price". I think this is more Biblical too.

By "taking our place" it's not that He pays the price (like writes out a check) but that He is the price paid. Given that He gives His life to the heavenly court who could not find anything against Him, He was not subject to being punished. Therefore, all who are "in Him" are not punished because He cannot be accused.

Jesus defeated the accusations against us by giving his life for sinners. The devil, sin, and death - and even the Law which always accuses - are defeated by Jesus. This means he did not need to pay the price for the second death because he could not be accused of sin. So he was raised for our justification - all those who trust Him and His work are "put in Him" in the heavenly court, like as if He now is their advocate or their family head. All your sins are on His account, but His account is perfect because He is perfect.

There's probably a dozen angles one could think of this but my point is that if you think in one atonement theory alone you'll run into problems, because Jesus was doing far more on the cross than I think we realise.

 

[mmksparbud]

Why preach the gospel at all?


Without a doubt this is one of the most frequent question asked of me, everywhere I post I come across this question.


Here is my answer to this question


For me the reason Jesus was sent and the reason Jesus sends us is to free people through Him from sin and death. Salvation is not complete just because one believes Jesus died for them. Believing is only the starting point on our journey toward full salvation, for we are reconciled by His death, but saved by His life.

All men everywhere are already reconciled by His death, this is a done deal because He died 2000 years ago for all men's reconciliation and mans belief or unbelief CANNOT change this fact. If someone does not believe Jesus died for then simply does not change the fact that He did.

So then all men everywhere have already been reconciled, but not all men are yet saved from sin and death.


Therefore Jesus send us out in order to proclaim His salvation by His LIFE.
His death reconciled all men, but His LIFE is what saves all men, this salvation is not a one time deal as such, but is a long process of walking in His LIFE and forsaking our own. Taking up the cross and following Him and enduring unto the end that we might be saved.


Thus we are told to proclaim His death and therefore His reconciliation for all men as a FACT that cannot be disputed , and we are to do this so that the entire world can have the same hope in His LIFE that we to have. Thus it is not by His death that sin and death are defeated but by His LIFE.

When we witness about that which Jesus done, we are first to tell all men that they have been reconciled because of His death, this fact breathes hope into the world that God does indeed love them. Then after people become aware of the fact of this reconciliation by His death we are to proclaim His resurrection. And it is because of the fact that He was resurrected OUT OF DEATH that the world is given hope of the same resurrection OUT OF DEATH. We are NOT saved from death, we are saved OUT OF DEATH, for it was while we were DEAD in sin that He died and was raised to life again for us.

So the resurrection is a moving from DEATH to LIFE, so as He died for all men, so to did He rise for all men, and this is the gospel of the good new toward ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.

If one believes Jesus died for all men, should it not go without saying that when He rose again that it was for all men also? Can we really separate His death from His resurrection? If so, how then can DEATH be swallowed up of LIFE?

God bless


I wrote this in response to a lady who asked the question if all are saved why preach the gospel at all?


After reading my answer this was her reply back to me.



Dear Pneuma,

I totally agree with your description of the gospel. Yes, we are not only dead in Christ but now alive in Christ, praise God. You are right, Christ's death cannot be separated from His resurrection. It was His resurrection that the disciples preached, you are right. It is His resurrection that is the hope for all mankind. The full gospel is the death and resurrection. I agree He died for all, all are reconciled through His death and all are given life through His resurrection, out of death, as you say. I can't however, get past the point of faith (which is given to us by God in His grace anyway, all have the capacity to believe, or reject) and personal response to accepting this truth for ourselves, as revealed by the Spirit to us. I heard John Bevere give a definition of the word 'believe' in as meaning 'to follow'. Believing (in our terms) is first yes, and then taking up our cross daily and living following Christ, I agree is the full walk of salvation. Again, we can only do any of this by God's grace through faith hey.
I feel the Spirit of God on what you have written and thank you.

It is indeed His resurrection that makes salvation possible otherwise we would stay dead! Again, what has that to do with the concept that everyone will be saved after death??It is clear that Jesus died for all on His death, He died the 1st death--He never died the 2nd death. Or He would never have been resurrected! God does not force salvation on anyone--it has to be accepted. If everyone can be saved after going to hell there is no need to live a Godly life, no need to give God another thought---you all claim we will be saved anyway. So why bother??

 

[ClementofA]

You completely ignore all the passages that state otherwise---

Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

You only want to take the words that you want to hear and try to twist them to you own theory.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

For crying out loud-----if everyone is to be saved---why bother with giving anyone His word, why bother with living a Godly life, why bother with even trying to do what is right, why bother doing anything in this life at all including baptism, going to church, loving your neighbor?? Nothing of it would be of any consequence at all. just live for yourself and the heck with it, it doesn't matter---even Hitler gets a 2nd chance after death!!! I suppose even Hitler would get a 2nd chance--not to mention Satan---poor guy is just misguided I suppose. Jesus didn't have to go through any of the stuff He did---He didn't have to live a sinless life. He did not have to be our example of what kind of life we are to lead---He just had to slash His wrists and that would have taken care of the whole thing.
Try praying for the Holly Spirit and then throw out the trash you've been reading and just READ HIS WORD!!!

You completely ignore all the passages that state otherwise---

Not true. Search the forums. I've answered every verse you could think of & many others that people are deluded into thinking they oppose universalism have posted. Most of them are really lame, actually, like those you just posted. And from the rest of your response it's evident you are poorly informed on the subject (i.e. universalism). This answers your misconceptions:


https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
http://evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/2008/04/responses-to-evangelical-objections-to.html

 

[ClementofA]

Not biblical!! Delusional! It boils down to have a good time---don't worry about being saved or living a Godly life--you will still be saved. Why did Jesus bother with any of it---makes absolutely no sense and comes straight out of the mind of Satan. You guys can't even figure out what to believe---you all have your own versions. You have listened to the opinions of man and not the straight word of God---and leading others down a path of no return.

Evidently you didn't read the links i provided that correct your misconceptions and misrepresentations. Repeating false claims over & over again does not make them any less false than the first time you said them.

You completely ignore all the passages that state otherwise---

Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

You only want to take the words that you want to hear and try to twist them to you own theory.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

For crying out loud-----if everyone is to be saved---why bother with giving anyone His word, why bother with living a Godly life, why bother with even trying to do what is right, why bother doing anything in this life at all including baptism, going to church, loving your neighbor?? Nothing of it would be of any consequence at all. just live for yourself and the heck with it, it doesn't matter---even Hitler gets a 2nd chance after death!!! I suppose even Hitler would get a 2nd chance--not to mention Satan---poor guy is just misguided I suppose. Jesus didn't have to go through any of the stuff He did---He didn't have to live a sinless life. He did not have to be our example of what kind of life we are to lead---He just had to slash His wrists and that would have taken care of the whole thing.
Try praying for the Holly Spirit and then throw out the trash you've been reading and just READ HIS WORD!!!

You completely ignore all the passages that state otherwise---

Not true. Search the forums. I've answered every verse you could think of & many others that people are deluded into thinking they oppose universalism have posted. Most of them are really lame, actually, like those you just posted. And from the rest of your response it's evident you are poorly informed on the subject (i.e. universalism). This answers your misconceptions:


https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
http://evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/2008/04/responses-to-evangelical-objections-to.html

 

[ClementofA]

Jesus did not pay the price of the 2nd death!!! Only the first death! We will all be resurrected from the 1st death, the saved when Jesus returns, the lost at judgement

Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Jn.1:29 says the Lamb will take away the sin of the world. Not let endless death reign over billions as in the endless annihilation endless Hitler-like god viewpoint.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

Of course, like all sinners, which all men are before salvation, they must be saved before they can enter the New Jerusalem. That's why it's gates will never be shut.

On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

The kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it:

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

How can they do that unless they were outside the city gates before?

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

 

[ClementofA]

If everyone can be saved after going to hell there is no need to live a Godly life, no need to give God another thought---you all claim we will be saved anyway. So why bother??

Why bother? The most obvious reason is to avoid going to "hell".

Evidently you haven't read the articles i posted:

You completely ignore all the passages that state otherwise---

Not true. Search the forums. I've answered every verse you could think of & many others that people are deluded into thinking they oppose universalism have posted. Most of them are really lame, actually, like those you just posted. And from the rest of your response it's evident you are poorly informed on the subject (i.e. universalism). This answers your misconceptions:


https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
http://evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/2008/04/responses-to-evangelical-objections-to.html

 

[mmksparbud]

Jn.1:29 says the Lamb will take away the sin of the world. Not let endless death reign over billions as in the endless annihilation endless Hitler-like god viewpoint.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

Of course, like all sinners, which all men are before salvation, they must be saved before they can enter the New Jerusalem. That's why it's gates will never be shut.

On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

The kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it:

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

How can they do that unless they were outside the city gates before?

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.

Where is the verse that states there is salvation after death? Simple. Don't need endless meaningless opinions from others who do not know the bible any better than you do. Just post a verse. None of these says a single word about salvation after death. Your meaningless conjecture is not needed---just the verses. Everyone knows that every knee will bow before God and acknowledge His supremacy---the lost will also. They will agree that their judgement is just. Not one verse says they have been in hell and are now saved. Again---Jesus only died the 1st death--He paid the price of the 1st death, not the 2nd death. Nobody comes out of the 2nd death.