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I'm just monitoring this thread to see if you guys ever find out the answer to the question of eternality of hell...?
Is it truly eternal, or just a long time, or what...?
God Bless!
<P3>The way I see it according to scripture aionios hell/damnation/torment whichever word you want to attach with aionios is of unknown duration. No one knows how long this duration will last. The reason being IMO is because no one knows how long the work of the cross will take in each individuals life.begin
Now if you only had some scriptural evidence to support this argument. Where are Christians told to concern themselves with "how long the work of the cross will take?"
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.<P3>The way I see it according to scripture aionios hell/damnation/torment whichever word you want to attach with aionios is of unknown duration. No one knows how long this duration will last. The reason being IMO is because no one knows how long the work of the cross will take in each individuals life.
Now if you only had some scriptural evidence to support this argument. Where are Christians told to concern themselves with "how long the work of the cross will take?"
John 9:4How can the dead call on the one they have not believed in? How can those in hell believe in the of whom they have not heard? How can those who rejected God while living hear after they die and believe in the one they have not heard? Who is going to be sent to preach to them? Scriptural support?
(4) As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.
Romans 10:14-15
(14) How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
(15) And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Does not address my post in any way. So people who rejected God in this life and spend some indeterminate time in a very unpleasant place are suddenly going to be filled with warm fuzzies and love God? The recidivism rate for prisons in this country is 77% those incarcerated often blame everyone but themselves for going to prison, often seeking to harm them. How is this going to change after death?For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
and I was pointing out you did not understand my post for I was talking about the cross. The aionios hell/damnation/torment/annihilation all have to do with the workings of the cross in men's life.Does not address my post in any way. So people who rejected God in this life and spend some indeterminate time in a very unpleasant place are suddenly going to be filled with warm fuzzies and love God? The recidivism rate for prisons in this country is 77% those incarcerated often blame everyone but themselves for going to prison, often seeking to harm them. How is this going to change after death?
So people who rejected God in this life and spend some indeterminate time in a very unpleasant place are suddenly going to be filled with warm fuzzies and love God?
The recidivism rate for prisons in this country is 77% those incarcerated often blame everyone but themselves for going to prison, often seeking to harm them. How is this going to change after death?
Since I have never mentioned the cross or anything about it your accusation is foolishness. Please explain to me how the work of the cross factors in this situation?and I was pointing out you did not understand my post for I was talking about the cross. The aionios hell/damnation/torment/annihilation all have to do with the workings of the cross in men's life.
Which obviously you think is foolishness.
Since I have never mentioned the cross or anything about it your accusation is foolishness. Please explain to me how the work of the cross factors in this situation?
So people who rejected God in this life and spend some indeterminate time in a very unpleasant place are suddenly going to be filled with warm fuzzies and love God?I have asked this question many times before of other UR-ites and have never received and answer.
.....The recidivism rate for prisons in this country is 77% those incarcerated often blame everyone but themselves for going to prison, e.g. judges, juries, witnesses, police, often seeking to harm them. How is this going to change after death?
Refers to only one man not all mankind. There are many different punishments in the Bible, everyone does not have the same punishment. And it does NOT say he "will" be saved only that he might be saved.ClementofA said:Suddenly? Who said that? Compare this unpleasantness:
1 Cor.5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved [σωθη/sothe] on the day of the Lord.
Does not say or imply that they will be saved after death. If they are conscious during punishment they will be learning not to blaspheme.1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…
In 1 Tim.1:19-20 Love Omnipotent is still trying to save those who have become apostates.
If that's the rate for a few years or decades in mere human prisons, what would be Love Omnipotent's rate when He has all power & all eternity to change those in His prisons?
Love Omnipotent has all eternity to wait & keep trying to save people. And given His willingness & ability to draw men to Himself an infinite number of times through eternity, it is mathematically impossible for anyone to reject Him an infinite number of times. Each time the man has a free choice to choose or reject God there is a chance he will choose God. Given an infinite number of such chances, the odds are impossible that he will not eventually choose God. So all will be saved.
"God is the grand master playing chess and we are the 5 year old rookie. Theoretically we are "free" to win the chess game, it is possible. No not really in the libertarian sense - it is unlikely to the point of virtual zero. in other words, God will always get His way, despite our best efforts not to be saved."
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“He does not save men by arbitrary force. He saves by their wills, through moral influence. God has resources in his universe, the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing! He has light enough to make the blind see, and love enough to melt the hardened heart.” -Quillen Hamilton Shinn
“How ironic that those who believe God will not violate the ‘free ’will of man have no problem believing He will violate His own free will—that all men should be saved!” - David Nuckols
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"God did not leave anything to chance, he's not a gambler he's an investor and that investment reaps dividends every time, if it takes a fundamentalist eternity to so."
"Who is stronger? Man with his free will or God who will have all men to be saved?"
According to the Bible mercy will triumph over judgement.
Love will conquer all.
Proof for the Teaching of Christian, Biblical Universalism
.....Meaningless copy/pasted unsupported opinion of various anonymous UR-ites with no, zero, none scriptural support. Nothing more than "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!"
Refers to only one man not all mankind.
So people who rejected God in this life and spend some indeterminate time in a very unpleasant place are suddenly going to be filled with warm fuzzies and love God?
If God is going to saves sinners "by their wills, through moral influence. ...the all conquering agencies of love, to make the unwilling soul willing!" I suppose that means God is going to somehow change the hearts and minds of hardened disbelievers so that they love Him after being punished.
Why doesn't God exercise that will while they are still alive instead of willingly letting them live a sinful life and knowing that He is going to subject them to an indeterminate time of punishment?
John 9:4
(4) As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work.
How can the dead call on the one they have not believed in? How can those in hell believe in the of whom they have not heard? How can those who rejected God while living hear after they die and believe in the one they have not heard? Who is going to be sent to preach to them?
No one knows how long this duration will last.
Hmm, here's another theory, then. From our point of view, it is unclear whether ECT is true, but it is possible that it's true, and this mere possibility is what we are confronting with the necessity of this-life repentance, etc. It's still possible, though, that ECT is false. The only guarantee is ECL (eternal conscious love, for those who are saved---whenever they're saved).
<Clem>This & your other comments are irrelevant to the point being made. The point is that God uses "unpleasantness" in regards to bringing men to himself, as per 1 Cor.5:4-5; 1 Tim.1:19-20 & many other Scripture passages. Which puts to rest your complaint here:begin
The only irrelevant arguments here are yours. Repeating the same two verses over and over and over without addressing my questions does NOT make them mean anyone is going to be saved.
I'm sorry I have looked in 1 Tim 1:19-20 and I cannot find the term "Love Omnipotent." This term is a ploy to evoke an emotional response instead of thinking rationally. I just happened to notice in both verses it is NOT "Love omnipotent" doing anything but Paul disciplining members of the church with the hope that God might correct them.Clem said:In 1 Tim.1:19-20 Love Omnipotent is still trying to save those who have become apostates.
Do you really believe God would build a tower without counting the cost and being unable to finish it?
God counted the cost for the salvation of the world, is He then unable to finish what He started?
I repeat, sozo the word translated "may be saved," 1 Cor 5:4, is a subjunctive which is the mood of potentiality and possibility. .
Refers to only one man not all mankind.
So people who rejected God in this life and spend some indeterminate time in a very unpleasant place are suddenly going to be filled with warm fuzzies and love God?
Don't get me wrong, I'm a universalist at heart. I don't think God is cruel enough to torture helpless beings forever, even if they seem "despicable" according to some moral standard. That being said, I'm not super-sure about the subject so I want to leave open other interpretive options when it comes to the Bible.
I have been a Christian since Johnson was president. Lyndon not Andrew. I have studied Theology, including Hebrew and Greek, at the graduate level. I have never stopped studying and learning. My most recent resource acquisition, within the last month or so, was a version of Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon which I can use from my laptop. I also have two PC copies of Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon. Since I am retired times 3 I have plenty of time to pursue my passion.Don't get me wrong, I'm a universalist at heart. I don't think God is cruel enough to torture helpless beings forever, even if they seem "despicable" according to some moral standard. That being said, I'm not super-sure about the subject so I want to leave open other interpretive options when it comes to the Bible.
I have been a Christian since Johnson was president. Lyndon not Andrew. I have studied Theology, including Hebrew and Greek, at the graduate level. I have never stopped studying and learning. My most recent resource acquisition, within the last month or so, was a version of Bauer, Danker, Arndt, Gingrich Greek lexicon which I can use from my laptop. I also have two PC copies of Brown, Driver, Briggs Hebrew lexicon. Since I am retired times 3 I have plenty of time to pursue my passion.
.....Since God was so clear on so many things, such as "Thou shalt not steal." Clearly stated, no chance of misunderstanding. I would think that if God was going to save all mankind, whether they have repented in this life or not, I believe He would have stated that in no uncertain terms. I cannot find any verse where God, Himself, or Jesus Himself is speaking and He says something to the effect, "I will reconcile all mankind to myself, even if they have not repented in their earthly life."
Do you agree with Vincent that aidios means everlasting?
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