An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

HatGuy · Sep 14, 2018

One interesting question (well I think it's interesting). How does Jesus' definition of "eternal life" in John 17:3 speak into this topic?

"and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ"

Used the YLT just for you guys

Ripheus27 · Sep 14, 2018

Reading through this thread is causing me eternal/age-during/everlasting/endless/aionian conscious torment.

ClementofA · Sep 14, 2018

HatGuy said:
One interesting question (well I think it's interesting). How does Jesus' definition of "eternal life" in John 17:3 speak into this topic?

"and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ"

Used the YLT just for you guys

What "topic" would that be?

This is eonian life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (Jn.17:3, CLV)

New Testament scholar N.T. Wright's version/s (The Kingdom New Testament or NTE) says life aionion is "the life of God's coming age":

John 17:3 And by “the life of God’s coming age” I mean this: that they should know you, the only true God, and Jesus the Messiah, the one you sent. (NTE) https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/John 17:3

Much the same is the version by EO scholar David Bentley Hart & others:

John 17:3 And this is life in the Age: that they might know you, the sole true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus the Anointed. (DBH)

Jn.17:3 and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ; (YLT)
Jn.17:3 And in this consists the Life of the Ages--in knowing Thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent. (WEY)
Jn.17:3 And, this, is the age-abiding life, That they get to know thee, the only real God, and him whom thou didst send, Jesus Christ. (RO)
Jn.17:3 This and is the age-lasting life, that they might know thee the only true God, and whom thou hast sent Jesus Anointed. (DG)

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

Matthew 25:46 "And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian." (CLV)

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 14, 2018

An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

Ripheus27 said:
Reading through this thread is causing me eternal/age-during/everlasting/endless/aionian conscious torment.

HatGuy said:
One interesting question (well I think it's interesting). How does Jesus' definition of "eternal life" in John 17:3 speak into this topic?

"and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ"

Used the YLT just for you guys

I like YLT. One of the very few translators that actually uses the transliterated word "gehenna" in his version.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7434988/
OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire

https://www.blueletterbible.org/search/search.cfm?Criteria=gehenna&t=YLT#s=s_primary_0_1

Matthew 23:
15 Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
That ye are going about the sea and the dry/xhran <3584> to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming, ye are making him a son of geennhV<1067> twofold-more of ye-selves
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers!
how? ye may be fleeing from the judging of the geennhV <1067>
[Luke 16:24/Revelation 14:11]

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=Lazarus

Luke 16:24
And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me
that I am being pained in this flame<5395>."
Revelation 2:18
And to the messenger of the church in Thyatira write:
These things says the Son of God, the One having His eyes like a flame<5395> of fire, and His feet like burnished bronze.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting of them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/savior/SOW1.htm#7RMENTED
TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB

.............Ah, the torment comes not from the Lamb. The torment lies within the bosoms of the tormented. The Scripture does not say that the Lamb torments them! If you think it does, you are mistaken. It states that THEY ARE TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb.
What a thought! TORMENTED IN THE PRESENCE. The Lamb is merely present. He does not torment. The condition is within themselves...................

Der Alte · Sep 14, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
They will state such things as aionios can mean something different within one sentence, and it subject determines the fullness or lack thereof of the meaning.

There are over 200 figures of speech in the Bible one of those is "hyperbole." Mystery solved.

The Hebrew word for aionios is olam, so lets look at a few scriptures from the old testament.
Habakkuk 3:6
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting....

Thirty six [36] OT verses where the word "olam" occurs with adjectives and adjectival phrases which describe/define the word “olam” as everlasting/eternal.

Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.

In this vs. “name olam” is paired with “unto all generations.” “Age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“for ever” does.

Psalms 21:4
(4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “length of days”. “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to length of days, “for ever and ever” does.

Psalms 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “in all generations,” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “in all generations”, “for ever and ever” does.

Psa 33:11
(11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

In this vs. “standeth olam” is paired with “to all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.

Psa 146:10 The LORD will reign for ever, [עולם/olam] Thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Hallelujah.[“ all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31]

In this vs. “reign olam” is paired with “unto all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.

Psa 37:28
(28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם/olam] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

In this vs. “preserved olam” is contrasted with “the wicked shall be cut off,””age(s),”a finite period, is not opposite of “the wicked shall be cut off,” “for ever” is.

Ecc 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

In this vs. עולם/olam is equated with. “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts. “Age(s),“a finite period, does not equate with “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts, “for ever” does.

Isa 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

In this vs. “salvation olam” is equated with “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not opposite of “shall not be abolished,” “forever” is.

Isa 51:8
(8) For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my salvation from generation to generation.

In this vs. “righteousness olam” is paired with “from generation to generation” “age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “from generation to generation.” “for ever” does.

Dan 7:14
(14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

In this vs. “olam dominion” is equated with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed.” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away,””never be destroyed”, “everlasting dominion” does.

Jer 23:40
(40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם]—everlasting shame [ עולם] that will not be forgotten."

In this vs. “olam disgrace and shame” is paired with “will not be forgotten.” “age(s) a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,””everlasting” does.

Jer 50:5
(5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that will not be forgotten.

In this vs. “olam covenant” is paired with “will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”everlasting” does.

Exo 27:21
(21) In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

In this verse עולם/olam is paired with “unto their generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “unto their generations,” “for ever” does.

Exo 30:21
(21) So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.

[“throughout their generations “ also Lev 10:9, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:41, Num 10:8, 15:15, 18:23, Psa 145;13, Ex 40:15, Lev 7:36][/indent]
In this verse “statute עולם/olam” is paired with “die not” and “throughout their generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “die not” and “throughout their. Generations,” “forever” does.

Psa 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[ עד/ad][“in all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31].

In this verse עולם/olam and . עד/ad are paired with “in all generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “in all generations,” “for ever and ever” does.

Psa 148:6
(6) He hath also stablished them for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[ עד/ad] he hath made a decree which shall not pass.

In this verse עולם/olam and עד/ad are paired with “shall not pass.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not pass.” “forever and ever” does.

Isa 55:13
(13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting [ עולם/olam] sign that shall not be cut off.”

In this verse “ עולם/olam sign” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting does.

[26]Isa 56:5
(5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting [ עולם/olam] name, that shall not be cut off.

In this verse “ עולם/olam name” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting” does.

Jer 32:40
(40) And I will make an everlasting “[עולם/olam] covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with “I will not turn away” and ”they shall not depart from me.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “I will not turn away” and “they shall not depart from me.” “everlasting” does.

Jer 50:5
(5) They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual [עולם/olam] covenant that shall not be forgotten.

In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with ”shall not be forgotten” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be forgotten.” “perpetual covenant” does.

Lam 5:19
(19) Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; “[עולם/olam] thy throne from generation to generation.

In this verse “עולם/olam” is paired with “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.

Dan 4:3
(3)(3:33) How great are His signs! and how mighty are His wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting [עלם/alam] kingdom, and His dominion is from generation to generation.[עם־דר ודר/am-dor w’dor]

In this verse [עלם/alam] is paired with “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.

Jer 10:10-11
(10) But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal [עלם/alam] King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.
(11) "Tell them this: 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.'"

In this passage the living God, the eternal [עלם/alam] King has been contrasted with false gods which perish “the Living God the age(s)” is not the opposite of false gods that perish, the living God, the eternal is.

Der Alte · Sep 14, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
...begin

<P3>
Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction
From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
...
Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end
Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial
Again From the root of A or Alpha: Christ is the Alpha to indicate that he is the beginning and the end...<end>

end

This is internet nonsense being presented as fact.

But there is a common negative Greek prefix a(n) called alpha privative, In Greek it occurs with verbs, but chiefly denominative verbs like ἀτιμάζω. The use of ἀ – ἀν before vowels) is in the Greek still more common with adjectives and verbals. P. 1155
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research, A. T. Robertson,

The alpha privative precedes Jesus by hundreds of years.

ClementofA · Sep 14, 2018

Der Alter said:
There are over 200 figures of speech in the Bible one of those is "hyperbole." Mystery solved.

Except you've never quoted a single scholar in the past 5000 years who agrees with your silly hyperbole theories. The great weight of scholarship opposes you.

Der Alter said:
Thirty six [36] OT verses which define the word “olam.”

Nonsense.

"olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity":
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm

OLAM occurs in verse 31 here:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Jonah said "the earth with her bars was about me for ever(OLAM)". But only until he left three days later (Jon. 1:17; 2:6).
"A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord‘s congregation forever (OLAM). But only until the 10th generation. (De. 23:3).
Hills are everlasting (OLAM). But only until made low and the earth is burned up (Ge. 49:26; De. 33:15; Is. 40:4; 2Pe. 3:10).
Mountains are everlasting (OLAM). But only until they are scattered (Hab. 3:6).
A slave serves his master forever (OLAM). But only until death ends his servitude (Ex. 21:6).The Mosaic covenant is everlasting (OLAM). But only until it vanishes away (Le. 24:8; He. 8:7-13).
The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting (OLAM). But only until the likeness of Melchizedek arises (Ex. 40:15; Nu. 25:13; He. 7:14-22).
These ―stones are to be a memorial forever (OLAM). Where are they now (Jos. 4:7)?
The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever (OLAM). But only until
his death, of course (2K. 5:27).
God dwells in Solomon‘s temple forever (OLAM). But only until it is destroyed (2Ch. 7:16; 1K 8:13; 9:3).
Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever (OLAM). But only until ended by the work of Christ (2Ch. 2:4; He. 7:11-10:18).
Circumcision was an everlasting (OLAM) covenant. But only until the new covenant (Ge. 17:9-13; 1Co. 7:19; Ga. 5:6)."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Furthermore, olam is equivalent to the Greek aionion. Isaiah 54:4 LXX refers to aionion shame that is finite:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget"

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885429

Jesus didn't use such words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 14, 2018

lesliedellow said:
It is strange how αιωνιος is allowed to mean “everlasting” when it refers to eternal life, or the everlasting God, but never when it refers to everlasting punishment. Goodness me no, it can never mean that then.

There are only 2 verses that use #166 in one verse,
Titus 1:2 and:

YLT)
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away to punishment<2851> age-during<166>,
but the righteous to life age-during<166>.'

#2851 used in only 2 verses:

1 John 4:18
fear is not in the love, but the perfect love doth cast out the fear, because the fear hath punishment<2851>,
and he who is fearing hath not been made perfect in the love;

2849. kolazo from kolos (dwarf);
properly, to curtail, i.e. (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction):--punish.
2851. kolasis from 2849;
penal infliction:--punishment, torment.
2852. kolaphizo kol-af-id'-zo from a derivative of the base of 2849;
to rap with the fist:--buffet

#166 used 1 time in Revelation:

Revelation 14:6
And I saw another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having good-news age-during<166> to proclaim to those dwelling upon the earth/land,
and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people,

.

Der Alte · Sep 14, 2018

ClementofA said:
Except you've never quoted a single scholar in the past 5000 years who agrees with your silly hyperbole theories. The great weight of scholarship opposes you.

Nonsense.
"olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity":
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm
OLAM occurs in verse 31 here:
Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Jonah said "the earth with her bars was about me for ever(OLAM)". But only until he left three days later (Jon. 1:17; 2:6).
"A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord‘s congregation forever (OLAM). But only until the 10th generation. (De. 23:3).
Hills are everlasting (OLAM). But only until made low and the earth is burned up (Ge. 49:26; De. 33:15; Is. 40:4; 2Pe. 3:10).
Mountains are everlasting (OLAM). But only until they are scattered (Hab. 3:6).
A slave serves his master forever (OLAM). But only until death ends his servitude (Ex. 21:6).The Mosaic covenant is everlasting (OLAM). But only until it vanishes away (Le. 24:8; He. 8:7-13).
The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting (OLAM). But only until the likeness of Melchizedek arises (Ex. 40:15; Nu. 25:13; He. 7:14-22).
These ―stones are to be a memorial forever (OLAM). Where are they now (Jos. 4:7)?
The leprosy of Naaman shall cling forever (OLAM). But only until
his death, of course (2K. 5:27).
God dwells in Solomon‘s temple forever (OLAM). But only until it is destroyed (2Ch. 7:16; 1K 8:13; 9:3).
Animal sacrifices were to be offered forever (OLAM). But only until ended by the work of Christ (2Ch. 2:4; He. 7:11-10:18).
Circumcision was an everlasting (OLAM) covenant. But only until the new covenant (Ge. 17:9-13; 1Co. 7:19; Ga. 5:6)."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Furthermore, olam is equivalent to the Greek aionion. Isaiah 54:4 LXX refers to aionion shame that is finite:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget"

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/could-an-eternal-punishment-simply-mean-that-once-instituted-it-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885429

Jesus didn't use such words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html

That there are supposedly no examples of scholars who support my argument is irrelevant! Argument from silence. Little green men from outer space must exist because there is no evidence that they don't exist.
.....Are there any scholars who specifically refute my argument? And there are dozens of example where the word "world" does not and cannot mean the entire planet earth. Do you have any scholarly opinions about that? Quoting different definitions does NOT disprove anything I posted.
.....Quoting examples of what could be hyperbole does not disprove my arguments. Can you prove that my conclusion in these 2 verses is wrong?

Isaiah 55:13
(13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting [ עולם/olam] sign that shall not be cut off.”

In this verse “ עולם/olam sign” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting" does.

Isaiah 56:5
(5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting [ עולם/olam] name, that shall not be cut off.

In this verse “ עולם/olam name” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting” does.

lesliedellow · Sep 15, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
There are only 2 verses that use #166 in one verse,
Titus 1:2 and:

YLT)
Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away to punishment<2851> age-during<166>,
but the righteous to life age-during<166>.'

#2851 used in only 2 verses:

1 John 4:18
fear is not in the love, but the perfect love doth cast out the fear, because the fear hath punishment<2851>,
and he who is fearing hath not been made perfect in the love;

2849. kolazo from kolos (dwarf);
properly, to curtail, i.e. (figuratively) to chastise (or reserve for infliction):--punish.
2851. kolasis from 2849;
penal infliction:--punishment, torment.
2852. kolaphizo kol-af-id'-zo from a derivative of the base of 2849;
to rap with the fist:--buffet

#166 used 1 time in Revelation:

Revelation 14:6
And I saw another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having good-news age-during<166> to proclaim to those dwelling upon the earth/land,
and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people,

.

We can swap translations all day:

Cambridge Concise Dictionary of New Testament Greek:
αιωνιος - long ago, eternal (of God); without end, eternal, everlasting.

Pocket Oxford Dictionary of Classical Greek:
αιωνιος - eternal.

The etymology of a word tells you next to nothing about how it is, or was, used in everyday life. Could the current penchant for toning it down have anything to do with cultural influences, do you think?

Besides, was Christ’s sacrifice supposed to save us from a rap across the knuckles?

Neogaia777 · Sep 15, 2018

lesliedellow said:
We can swap translations all day:

Cambridge Concise Dictionary of New Testament Greek:
αιωνιος - long ago, eternal (of God); without end, eternal, everlasting.

Pocket Oxford Dictionary of Classical Greek:
αιωνιος - eternal.

The etymology of a word tells you next to nothing about how it is, or was, used in everyday life. Could the current penchant for toning it down have anything to do with cultural influences, do you think?

Besides, was Christ’s sacrifice supposed to save us from a rap across the knuckles?

Well, instead of pondering or debating what "we think" it should be, hopefully we can try to eliminate all that and focus on what it "actually is" instead of what we think it should be... eternal torment, or not...?

I do not know if those in hell survive the creation of a new heaven and new earth or not...? (new universe?)... And I don't think it is just a disciplinary ground you'll get out of later on, or anything like that either... It says after the judgement your stuck there, and it's a very bad place from which there is no escape after judgement, determined by the judgement rendered by God, after that no more chances, your in a hell from which there is no escape until hell is maybe destroyed at which time you will be destroyed along with it... Whether those in heaven are exempt from that is something I'd like to know, but hope that it is...

God Bless!

ClementofA · Sep 15, 2018

lesliedellow said:
We can swap translations all day:

Cambridge Concise Dictionary of New Testament Greek:
αιωνιος - long ago, eternal (of God); without end, eternal, everlasting.

That's just an opinion, not evidence. And it only takes one piece of evidence to prove that opinion wrong, & here i've provided dozens of such pieces of evidence:

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885429

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038

lesliedellow said:
Pocket Oxford Dictionary of Classical Greek:
αιωνιος - eternal.

Classical Greek isn't NT Koine Greek.

lesliedellow said:
Besides, was Christ’s sacrifice supposed to save us from a rap across the knuckles?

What gives you that idea. Mt.1:21;2:6; Jn.1:29, etc.

7 myths re universalism
https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
http://evangelicaluniversalist.blogspot.com/2008/04/responses-to-evangelical-objections-to.html

ClementofA · Sep 15, 2018

Der Alter said:
That there are supposedly no examples of scholars who support my argument is irrelevant! Argument from silence. Little green men from outer space must exist because there is no evidence that they don't exist.
.....Are there any scholars who specifically refute my argument?

Scholars reject your theory that OLAM, AION, AD & AIONION always mean "eternal" or "forever" except when used in hyperbole. Instead, scholars give multiple definitions to these words. Scholars realize that context & usage determines the meaning of a word. So the scholarly consensus of the past 2000 years opposes your theory.

You are like the guy that says "Little green men...must exist" on the moon while all the scholars oppose you & you have not one shred of evidence in support of your view that OLAM, AION, AD, & AIONION are ever used in hyperbole. Your position leads to Jesus speaking of the "end of the age(AION)" (Mt.24:3) being translated as "end of the eternal" or "end of the forever" where "eternal" & "forever" are being used in hyperbole (exaggeration). Such nonsense. No wonder no translator, scholar or commentator in the past 2000 years agrees with your theory.

Der Alter said:
Quoting different definitions does NOT disprove anything I posted.

You are an amateur, not a scholar, & scholarly definitions do not define OLAM, AION, ADH, AIONIOS as you do. See above.

Der Alter said:
.....Quoting examples of what could be hyperbole does not disprove my arguments.

Mt.24:3 above & other similar examples put your hyperbole theory out of business.

Der Alter said:
Can you prove that my conclusion in these 2 verses is wrong

Why would i want to? What do they have to do with the subject of the OP?

lesliedellow · Sep 15, 2018

ClementofA said:
What gives you that idea. Mt.1:21;2:6; Jn.1:29, etc.

If the purpose of the Incarnation was literally to take away the sin of the world, it must count as one of God’s more notable failures, given the history of the last 2,000 years.

It’s purpose, at least for those who believe, is to take away the eternal consequences of sin; which are no joke.

Pneuma3 · Sep 15, 2018

Ripheus27 said:
Reading through this thread is causing me eternal/age-during/everlasting/endless/aionian conscious torment.

you do have a good sense of humor

Ripheus27 · Sep 15, 2018

I have a new theory about all this. What if those not under the Law, but who don't have faith, get annihilated, and those who are under the Law and don't have faith/have faith but betray it get sent to a realm of eternal torment? That might be part of why blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is referred to as an "eternal" sin, and as it says in the Epistle to the Hebrews, such blasphemy apparently amounts to being directly aware of the truth of Christ and turning against it. This might help explain why the Bible seems to fluctuate between these two images of "eternal punishment."

Der Alte · Sep 15, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
and logos also precede Jesus, are we then to assume the logos is not in reference to Jesus?

It depends on the context. The Greek word "logos" predates Jesus by 100s of years. But consider this.
.....Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra.” מאמר/memra which in Aramaic means “word.” The Targums were Aramaic translations of the O.T., began during the Babylonian captivity about 700 BC.
.....In the below list, which is only representative not comprehensive, there are at least eighty examples where the name יהוה/YHWH was replaced, in the Targums, with” מאמר/memra.” When John, the Jew, said to his Jewish audience, “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God.,” he was not saying anything strange or new.
....Here from the Jewish Encyclopedia, part of the article on “Memra.”
[1] “Deut 4:7 The Word brings Israel nigh unto God and [The Word] sits on [God’s] throne receiving the prayers of Israel.” cf. Re 3:21 Re 22:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

[2] “Isa 48:13 His Word has laid the foundation of the earth.” cf. John 1:3, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[3] “Isa 64;13 So, in the future, shall The Word be the comforter.” cf. John 14;18, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you..

[4] “Zech 12:5 In The Word redemption will be found.” cf. 1 Cor 1:30, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

[5] “Lev 22:12 My Word shall be unto you for a redeeming deity.” cf. 1 Cor 1;30, Heb 9:12, Heb 9:15, N.T. ca. 70 AD.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Jewish Encyclopedia Memra-In the Targum:
In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity.
Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "I shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it." "The Memra," [The Word] instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.). Not "God," but "the Memra [The Word]," is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). " I will cover thee with My Memra, [My Word] " instead of "My hand " (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra [My Word] shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra, [The Word] " instead of "God," is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes "a sign between My Memra [My Word] and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra [His Word] has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, [The Word] not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).
Like the Shekinah (comp. Targ. Num. xxiii. 21), the Memra is accordingly the manifestation of God. "The Memra [The Word] brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" " (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7). . . So, in the future, shall the Memra [The Word] be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra [My Word] shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12).
The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. xxxi. 9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. xxxii. 41). "In the Memra [The Word] the redemption will be found " (Targ. Zech. xii. 5).
Jewish Encylopædia online

ClementofA · Sep 15, 2018

lesliedellow said:
If the purpose of the Incarnation was literally to take away the sin of the world, it must count as one of God’s more notable failures, given the history of the last 2,000 years.

It has been amazingly successful in His church, who are the firstfruits of all humanity to experience it (cf. Js.1:18; 1 Cor.15:20, 22, 23, 28).

lesliedellow said:
It’s purpose, at least for those who believe, is to take away the eternal consequences of sin; which are no joke.

I don't find this notion in Scripture.

Neogaia777 · Sep 15, 2018

lesliedellow said:
If the purpose of the Incarnation was literally to take away the sin of the world, it must count as one of God’s more notable failures, given the history of the last 2,000 years.

It was from that point and after what Jesus did sealed or set on a course to a future time that cannot be changed when he will take away the sin of and in the world, and remove the devil, but he is and has been giving not only humans and humanity but certain spirits time to repent, a grace period, to show his mercy regardless... But ultimately to take away the sin in the world, he will have to remove the wicked... When it's time...

lesliedellow said:
It’s purpose, at least for those who believe, is to take away the eternal consequences of sin; which are no joke.

That is one great major benefit for sure, but repentance now in this life, also comes with rewards in this life both tangible and the more intangible, some of which of the more intangible can carry over to the next life's blessings...

God Bless!

lesliedellow · Sep 16, 2018

ClementofA said:
It has been amazingly successful in His church, who are the firstfruits of all humanity to experience it (cf. Js.1:18; 1 Cor.15:20, 22, 23, 28).

For heaven sake, which brand of rose coloured glasses do you wear?

An argument for "eternal conscious torment"

Some guy in a hat

Holeless fox

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Member

Old Soul

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Holeless fox

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Well-Known Member

Old Soul

Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency