An Arbitrary Universe?

[Iacchus32]

But how could order come from absolutely nothing? There must have been pre-existing principles already in place to tell it how to order itself, right? Or, are you suggesting the whole Universe created itself on the fly, principles and all? That doesn't make any sense at all. Just look at the atomic structure of the elements, where everything is strictly ordered. Are you saying these things and, in fact the order of everything else, was arbitrarily assigned at the moment the Big Bang occurred? What an incredible accident, indeed! And all without rhyme or reason. And yet here we are today, trying to make sense of it all. Hmm ...

 

[Mistermystery]

Who knows. At least this is a better topic then the abomination you made this morning. I for one have not the awnsers you are looking for, but what I fail to understand is how you make it seem impossible that God used the Big bang to create.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

But how could order come from absolutely nothing? There must have been pre-existing principles already in place to tell it how to order itself, right? Or, are you suggesting the whole Universe created itself on the fly, principles and all? That doesn't make any sense at all. Just look at the atomic structure of the elements, where everything is strictly ordered. Are you saying these things and, in fact the order of everything else, was arbitrarily assigned at the moment the Big Bang occurred? What an incredible accident, indeed! And all without rhyme or reason. And yet here we are today, trying to make sense of it all. Hmm ...

Things ordered themselves according to the laws of physics. The interesting question is how the laws of physics came to be, since many of them may not have applied prior to the big bang. There are numerous possibilities for that, since I am a Christian I choose to believe that God chose to have them apply, but that does not mean my explanation is correct.

Ghost

 

[kingreaper]

But how could order come from absolutely nothing? There must have been pre-existing principles already in place to tell it how to order itself, right? Or, are you suggesting the whole Universe created itself on the fly, principles and all? That doesn't make any sense at all. Just look at the atomic structure of the elements, where everything is strictly ordered. Are you saying these things and, in fact the order of everything else, was arbitrarily assigned at the moment the Big Bang occurred? What an incredible accident, indeed! And all without rhyme or reason. And yet here we are today, trying to make sense of it all. Hmm ...

No-one knows

Whats interesting is "Goddidit" just causes the same question to be askd about God, why did he pick these arbitrary values?

Thus the God hypothesis adds nothing to answering this particular question, and complicates issues

 

[Iacchus32]

Who knows. At least this is a better topic then the abomination you made this morning.

No, I'm afraid the topic's the same. All I've done is change the title and delete a few things to accomodate the moderators.

I for one have not the awnsers you are looking for, but what I fail to understand is how you make it seem impossible that God used the Big bang to create.

Am I saying that? Not hardly. Am merely asking how the Big Bang can come about of its own accord, without something, God in other words, to instigate it?

 

[Iacchus32]

Things ordered themselves according to the laws of physics. The interesting question is how the laws of physics came to be, since many of them may not have applied prior to the big bang. There are numerous possibilities for that, since I am a Christian I choose to believe that God chose to have them apply, but that does not mean my explanation is correct.

Ghost

Even so, wouldn't it be possible for these rules to exist in theory? I honestly believe that Creation was a willful and deliberate act, unless of course you're suggesting God is not capable of such things?

 

[Iacchus32]

No-one knows

Whats interesting is "Goddidit" just causes the same question to be askd about God, why did he pick these arbitrary values?

Thus the God hypothesis adds nothing to answering this particular question, and complicates issues

And what is so "arbitrary" about that which is fully structured and ordered? So, do you know what it's like to "roll out the carpet," with all the "inlaid design" already in its place? Why should we look at Creation -- or, evolution for that matter -- in any other way?

 

[GoSeminoles!]

Am I'm saying that? Not hardly. Am merely asking how the Big Bang can come about of its own accord, without something, God in other words, to instigate it?

Have you tried reading a book? Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time is a good read and may be just what you are looking for. He has no definite answers to your questions in the OP (nobody does), but there are some interesting possibilites suggested by what we do know. One interesting point: The notion that the BB had to be caused makes little sense because the BB is the start of space-time. There is no such thing as before the start of time, so there was nothing to cause the BB in the normal way that we think about cause-and-effect.

You also may want to watch NOVA's Elegant Universe which is supposed to run again this month. Also, NOVA's Origins will re-run in the spring. Both deal extensively with the latest in cosmology.

 

[Clem is Me]

If you want me to show you how the big bang "came about" you just have to show me what the conditions are beyond our spacetime.

 

[Iacchus32]

Have you tried reading a book? Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time is a good read and may be just what you are looking for. He has no definite answers to your questions in the OP (nobody does), but there are some interesting possibilites suggested by what we do know. One interesting point: The notion that the BB had to be caused makes little sense because the BB is the start of space-time. There is no such thing as before the start of time, so there was nothing to cause the BB in the normal way that we think about cause-and-effect.

Of course from the standpoint of being an Atheist, it's kind of hard to accomodate the possibility that God may have had a hand in it too, correct? Oh, and is it possible that God may not reside in the same dimension which is subject to the parameters of time and space? Also, where did all this energy come from before the Big Bang? If energy cannot be destroyed, does that mean it was pre-existent?

You also may want to watch NOVA's Elegant Universe which is supposed to run again this month. Also, NOVA's Origins will re-run in the spring. Both deal extensively with the latest in cosmology.

Yes, both of these are good programs, the book is supposed to be pretty good too.

 

[llDayo]

But how could order come from absolutely nothing?

Define order.

There must have been pre-existing principles already in place to tell it how to order itself, right?

Says who?

Or, are you suggesting the whole Universe created itself on the fly, principles and all? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to everybody.

Just look at the atomic structure of the elements, where everything is strictly ordered.

This "structure" is strictly a human concept. We know the elements belong where they do because of experimentation and observation. However, is the chart exactly correct in the way we have defined it? Science hasn't advanced far enough to be able to view electrons working so we just have to go on the observational data. God certainly didn't construct the Periodic Table so how can you say he determined this "order"?

Are you saying these things and, in fact the order of everything else, was arbitrarily assigned at the moment the Big Bang occurred? What an incredible accident, indeed! And all without rhyme or reason. And yet here we are today, trying to make sense of it all. Hmm ...

You've presented no useful evidence to the contrary so we'll just stick with what modern science has discovered.

 

[Bushido216]

Am I saying that? Not hardly. Am merely asking how the Big Bang can come about of its own accord, without something, God in other words, to instigate it?

There are several hypothesis' out there right now, but no one really knows for sure right now. It's infact highly probable that we'll never know. However, that doesn't mean that we should just say "Goddidit" and move on. To do that would be to abandon and insult all human endeavour prior.

 

[Iacchus32]

If you want me to show you how the big bang "came about" you just have to show me what the conditions are beyond our spacetime.

There's no time like the present, correct? Besides that, the center of the Universe is everywhere. So, what does that have to do with time and space? This is what we had before the Big Bang. In fact the same rules still apply, it's just that we don't know it. All we have is the moment which, is Eternal. How so? Is it possible to exist outside of the here and now? No.

 

[GoSeminoles!]

Of course from the standpoint of being an Atheist, it's kind of hard to accomodate the possibility that God may have had a hand in it too, correct? Oh, and is it possible that God may not reside in the same dimension which is subject to the parameters of time and space?

I will gladly accomodate it when reliable evidence is found that God did have a hand in it. What I will not accomodate is substituting "God did it" for our present ignorance.

 

[Clem is Me]

There's no time like the present, correct? Besides that, the center of the Universe is everywhere. So, what does that have to do with time and space? This is what we had before the Big Bang. In fact the same rules still apply, it's just that we don't know it. All we have is the moment which, is Eternal. How so? Is it possible to exist outside of the here and now? No.

You don't seem to understand what I mean. We are in this space time. To understand what "caused" the big bang you have to describe what is "outside" this space time. When you can do that i can answer your question.

 

[Iacchus32]

I will gladly accomodate it when reliable evidence is found that God did have a hand in it. What I will not accomodate is substituting "God did it" for our present ignorance.

And yet I don't have to assert that God did anything, all I have to do is know that God exists. Yes, and trying to assert how God did it to those who don't know, is another story.

 

[Iacchus32]

You don't seem to understand what I mean. We are in this space time. To understand what "caused" the big bang you have to describe what is "outside" this space time. When you can do that i can answer your question.

And yet time and space are contained "within" the moment. So what does that mean, except that the moment -- which, is ever-lasting -- exists "outside" of time and space.

 

[Clem is Me]

And yet time and space are contained "within" the moment. So what does that mean, except that the moment -- which, is ever-lasting -- exists "outside" of time and space.

You are mistaking your experience with time and the phenomena of space time. The only space time we can accurately describe is within this space time itself. This space time began at the big bang and is a property of the universe itself. As far as we know there was no "before" the big bang. You can't reference time outside of this space time we are in and make any sense.

 

[Iacchus32]

There are several hypothesis' out there right now, but no one really knows for sure right now. It's infact highly probable that we'll never know. However, that doesn't mean that we should just say "Goddidit" and move on. To do that would be to abandon and insult all human endeavour prior.

Of course this is highly probable contingent upon "the fact" that God doesn't exist, right? What if you were able to establish for a fact that God does exist, would that make a difference?

 

[Iacchus32]

Define order.

The fact that we're able to define anything perhaps? How can we define anything without a sense of order?

Says who?

Says the nature of cause-and-effect. Or, are we supposed to just let it ride in this one instance?

Just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to everybody.

Well, it's very important to me that it does makes sense.

This "structure" is strictly a human concept. We know the elements belong where they do because of experimentation and observation. However, is the chart exactly correct in the way we have defined it? Science hasn't advanced far enough to be able to view electrons working so we just have to go on the observational data. God certainly didn't construct the Periodic Table so how can you say he determined this "order"?

The order is still there whether we understand it or not.

You've presented no useful evidence to the contrary so we'll just stick with what modern science has discovered.

Yes, and what is it that modern science has discovered ... besides everything comes from nothing?