An appeal to fundamentalists

[UnitedInChrist]

In preperation for Easter, our church is offereing a Lenten Study Series on "Living Biblically" . Tonite there will be a screening of the film, "For the Bible
> Tells Me So." I am simply posting this because the original OP speaks directly to the core of this documentary. Many can learn something by viewing this if they haven't already. Not really putting this here to open up a debate, to criticize my church, to bash me for being gay and christian, etc... b/c I've had all of that already on these boards from fellow christians. I am simply sharing information that i find informative, and if only ONE person begins to think afterwards...then that's all that matters. Below is a synopsis of the film from the producer:
>
>
>
>
>
> FILM SYNOPSIS
>
> Can the love between two people ever be an abomination?
> Is the chasm
> separating gays and lesbians and Christianity too wide
> to cross? Is the
> Bible an excuse to hate?
>
>
>
> Winner of the Audience Award for Best Documentary at
> the Seattle
> International Film Festival, Dan Karslake's
> provocative, entertaining
> documentary brilliantly reconciles homosexuality and
> Biblical scripture,
> and in the process reveals that Church-sanctioned anti-
> gay bias is based
> almost solely upon a significant (and often malicious)
> misinterpretation
> of the Bible. As the film notes, most Christians live
> their lives today
> without feeling obliged to kill anyone who works on the
> Sabbath or eats
> shrimp (as a literal reading of scripture dictates).
>
>
>
> Through the experiences of five very normal, very
> Christian, very
> American families -- including those of former House
> Majority Leader
> Richard Gephardt and Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson --
> we discover
> how insightful people of faith handle the realization
> of having a gay
> child. Informed by such respected voices as Bishop
> Desmond Tutu,
> Harvard's Peter Gomes, Orthodox Rabbi Steve Greenberg
> and Reverend Jimmy
> Creech, FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO offers healing,
> clarity and
> understanding to anyone caught in the crosshairs of
> scripture and sexual
> identity.

 

[Phinehas2]

Sounds like a different gospel altogether and not the apostolic gospel once delivered.
Paedophiles could write one maybe to suit themselves.

 

[UnitedInChrist]

Sounds like a different gospel altogether and not the apostolic gospel once delivered.
Paedophiles could write one maybe to suit themselves.

The pathetic statement made above clearly shows your character. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Floatingaxe]

The pathetic statement made above clearly shows your character. Thank you for sharing.

By now you ought to be expecting that, my dear. The Word of God is clear about homosexuality, and the United Church needs to give its collective head a shake, or it will find itself in the dust of a revival like none other.

Christians need to stand strong in the face of the onslaught of heresy! Please God! Not man!

 

[catlover]

By now you ought to be expecting that, my dear. The Word of God is clear about homosexuality, and the United Church needs to give its collective head a shake, or it will find itself in the dust of a revival like none other.

Christians need to stand strong in the face of the onslaught of heresy! Please God! Not man!

The United Church is right on track-it doesn't condone bigotry or hate.

BTW no one is flaming Jesus here, what is being flamed are Christians who behave with hate and bigotry towards other human beings.

 

[savedandhappy1]

Since I can't get anyone to tell me what they believe the definition of love is, as in love thy neighbor, I was wondering if someone could give their definition of hate ?

I will give you what I believe I have seen in alot of post, and then maybe it will break the ice for others.

1. Hate is when you call something a sin according to what you see in the Bible, but it isn't something some want to hear, so you hate.

2. I see hate when someone says they had SSA, but after much prayer and patience the Lord was changing them and so they come to a Christian website and give their testimony. Only to see those who use the words hater and bigotry the most call them dishonest to themselves or maybe just flat out lying to us and deceived.

3. Someone hates when they won't except someone elses supposed proof that the Bible has been mis-translated by some bias translator many years ago, because some of the information the give comes from a bias site. Or because you have done your own prayerful research and have felt the Holy Spirit give you peace with your findings. Of course you are still call close-minded, but thats another post.

4. You are a hater if you post scriptures, because man wrote it not God, and so it has errors, and only a hater who is prejudice would believe those scriptures are what God believes.

Ok, now could someone give their definition of hate?

I think it would help me to better understand why if a person believes someone is going to hell by what they are doing, and since none of us want that, ( I hope) it is hate?

If I was involved in a theft ring, and because I showed no good fruit you are concerned about my salvation, what do you believe the Lord wants you to do?

 

[catlover]

Since I can't get anyone to tell me what they believe the definition of love is, as in love thy neighbor, I was wondering if someone could give their definition of hate ?

I will give you what I believe I have seen in alot of post, and then maybe it will break the ice for others.

1. Hate is when you call something a sin according to what you see in the Bible, but it isn't something some want to hear, so you hate.

2. I see hate when someone says they had SSA, but after much prayer and patience the Lord was changing them and so they come to a Christian website and give their testimony. Only to see those who use the words hater and bigotry the most call them dishonest to themselves or maybe just flat out lying to us and deceived.

3. Someone hates when they won't except someone elses supposed proof that the Bible has been mis-translated by some bias translator many years ago, because some of the information the give comes from a bias site. Or because you have done your own prayerful research and have felt the Holy Spirit give you peace with your findings. Of course you are still call close-minded, but thats another post.

4. You are a hater if you post scriptures, because man wrote it not God, and so it has errors, and only a hater who is prejudice would believe those scriptures are what God believes.

Ok, now could someone give their definition of hate?

I think it would help me to better understand why if a person believes someone is going to hell by what they are doing, and since none of us want that, ( I hope) it is hate?

If I was involved in a theft ring, and because I showed no good fruit you are concerned about my salvation, what do you believe the Lord wants you to do?

The problem is--too many Christians are fixated on gay sex in being a sin and won't look at the goings on in their own church. Things like gluttony divorce and remarriage etc. Divorce and remarriage are sins Jesus specifically spoke about. So until The Christians who are fixated on gay sex clean up their own back yard there really needs to be more silence rather than pointing out the sin of a homosexual.

 

[BreadAlone]

The problem is--too many Christians are fixated on gay sex in being a sin and won't look at the goings on in their own church. Things like gluttony divorce and remarriage etc. Divorce and remarriage are sins Jesus specifically spoke about. So until The Christians who are fixated on gay sex clean up their own back yard there really needs to be more silence rather than pointing out the sin of a homosexual.

Most definately!

That, however, doesn't diminish the sinfulness of homosexuality.

 

[savedandhappy1]

The problem is--too many Christians are fixated on gay sex in being a sin and won't look at the goings on in their own church. Things like gluttony divorce and remarriage etc. Divorce and remarriage are sins Jesus specifically spoke about. So until The Christians who are fixated on gay sex clean up their own back yard there really needs to be more silence rather than pointing out the sin of a homosexual.

So you know that all churches don't approach these other things just as they do homosexuality ?

Have you been to a church where divorce and remarriage is taught as ok in God's eyes?

Have you been to a church that preached that over eating, drinking, or the access of anything is not wrong?

Since Jesus said come as you are, why do Christians have to be perfect before they can speak to someone about sinful living? Wouldn't that mean that no one could be a preacher or teacher, because there is no one perfect?

I'm 52 years old and I have never been in a church that preached against homosexuality, but the way alot here act you would swear it was the only sermon preached in fundamentilist/conservative churches on Sunday.

So can't get others definition of love or hate, even though they are the most used words in these threads. This is so confusing to me, but .............................oh well.

Thanks for at least commenting catlover.

 

[Floatingaxe]

The United Church is right on track-it doesn't condone bigotry or hate.

BTW no one is flaming Jesus here, what is being flamed are Christians who behave with hate and bigotry towards other human beings.

God's Word is being neglected by those who cannot face the truth and so they rewrite it to suit their desires---and it is the Christians who truly love God and others who are brave enought to speak out the truth lest anyone who truly desires it may miss it.

 

[Floatingaxe]

The problem is--too many Christians are fixated on gay sex in being a sin and won't look at the goings on in their own church. Things like gluttony divorce and remarriage etc. Divorce and remarriage are sins Jesus specifically spoke about. So until The Christians who are fixated on gay sex clean up their own back yard there really needs to be more silence rather than pointing out the sin of a homosexual.

Repentance starts with you. But when we see someone who claims to be a Christian touting sin as acceptable, we have to speak up---God's command. That is love in action.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

In preperation for Easter, our church is offereing a Lenten Study Series on "Living Biblically" . Tonite there will be a screening of the film, "For the Bible
> Tells Me So." I am simply posting this because the original OP speaks directly to the core of this documentary. Many can learn something by viewing this if they haven't already. Not really putting this here to open up a debate, to criticize my church, to bash me for being gay and christian, etc... b/c I've had all of that already on these boards from fellow christians. I am simply sharing information that i find informative, and if only ONE person begins to think afterwards...then that's all that matters. Below is a synopsis of the film from the producer:
>
>
>
>
>
> FILM SYNOPSIS
>
> Can the love between two people ever be an abomination?
> Is the chasm
> separating gays and lesbians and Christianity too wide
> to cross? Is the
> Bible an excuse to hate?
>
>
>
> Winner of the Audience Award for Best Documentary at
> the Seattle
> International Film Festival, Dan Karslake's
> provocative, entertaining
> documentary brilliantly reconciles homosexuality and
> Biblical scripture,
> and in the process reveals that Church-sanctioned anti-
> gay bias is based
> almost solely upon a significant (and often malicious)
> misinterpretation
> of the Bible. As the film notes, most Christians live
> their lives today
> without feeling obliged to kill anyone who works on the
> Sabbath or eats
> shrimp (as a literal reading of scripture dictates).
>
>
>
> Through the experiences of five very normal, very
> Christian, very
> American families -- including those of former House
> Majority Leader
> Richard Gephardt and Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson --
> we discover
> how insightful people of faith handle the realization
> of having a gay
> child. Informed by such respected voices as Bishop
> Desmond Tutu,
> Harvard's Peter Gomes, Orthodox Rabbi Steve Greenberg
> and Reverend Jimmy
> Creech, FOR THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO offers healing,
> clarity and
> understanding to anyone caught in the crosshairs of
> scripture and sexual
> identity.

Hi,

This thread was not intended to prop up same-sex sex. This thread is about how fundamentalists (or conservatives, perhaps thats a better term) should not forget that we are all sinners. And also to remember that judgment is only for God to do. If we keep those things in mind, we can approach these debate issues with a more sympathetic and loving attitude, while still being emphatic about our cause.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

catlover please understand that many of us, if not most all, have the same reaction to a person who stands up and says 'gay sex is blessed by God'/"stealing in moderation is blessed by God"all divorce is blessed by God"abortion is blessed by God" etc etc. So its not that people directly target homosexuality as much as it is that they are just defending the accusations brought about. Homosexuality just happens to be one of the most popular, so you hear about it much more often.

 

[catlover]

God's Word is being neglected by those who cannot face the truth and so they rewrite it to suit their desires---and it is the Christians who truly love God and others who are brave enought to speak out the truth lest anyone who truly desires it may miss it.

When you come down to it, those who believe in The Bible alone and their own literal interpretation are rewriting scripture to suit their own personal paradigms.

LAy people reading the Bible and harping on John 3:16 is a NEW Americanized theology. Nothing to do with older churches.

So you can throw as many accusations as you want to suit your POV...it's your own POV--you just believe The Bible is backing up your opinion, when it's not.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear catlover,
On the contrary how can someone be re-writing something they already believe is correct and true as it is.???

 

[UnitedInChrist]

The problem is--too many Christians are fixated on gay sex in being a sin and won't look at the goings on in their own church. Things like gluttony divorce and remarriage etc. Divorce and remarriage are sins Jesus specifically spoke about. So until The Christians who are fixated on gay sex clean up their own back yard there really needs to be more silence rather than pointing out the sin of a homosexual.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. There are many cafateria style christians on these boards. They pick and chose what they want to take literally in the bible, and then go on their rants to say what they know is true, and what is specfically written in the bible. So they use the typical Leviticus, Roman, etc...scriptures they they defend to the end about anti-homosexuality.
Sorta funny. The term, homosexuality, alone wasn't even a word til the mid 19th century. Bible literalism wasn't even a concept until the 20th century. There is NOTHING specific to homosexuality, in regards to loving relationships, in the bible at all. What is being discussed in the bible is the raping of men to show power over them, the inability to populate a group of people, and the biggest of sin, @ that time, not being welcoming of visitors, etc... Today, people will chose those scriptures and turn it into something it is not. They will not look at the scripture ABOVE those lines that say kill those that do not recognize the sabbath, nor the ones below it that speak of stoning those that eat shellfish, clothes of mixed fibers, or planting mixed seeds etc...
The "homosexual" teachings that people THINK the bible speaks of is a 20th century concept. When you read scriptures of "spilling seed on the ground, etc..." the "sin" there would be NOT reproducing when engaging in sexual relations. So for the literalist that want to say that the bible speaks over and over about the sin of homosexuality...I say, they also need to start stoning those having sex without reproducing (hetero or homo),
cutting out tonuges of their children that sass them, the burning of those that do not respect the sabbath, etc.. You are either LITERALLY reading the bible or you're not! Literally reads are great for a 5 year old brain, but b/c God's grace gave man the ability to REASON..the biggest sin is those that fail to use it and are blindly fed by their church leaders so they don't have to do any work on their own.

 

[savedandhappy1]

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. There are many cafateria style christians on these boards. They pick and chose what they want to take literally in the bible, and then go on their rants to say what they know is true, and what is specfically written in the bible. So they use the typical Leviticus, Roman, etc...scriptures they they defend to the end about anti-homosexuality.
Sorta funny. The term, homosexuality, alone wasn't even a word til the mid 19th century. Bible literalism wasn't even a concept until the 20th century. There is NOTHING specific to homosexuality, in regards to loving relationships, in the bible at all. What is being discussed in the bible is the raping of men to show power over them, the inability to populate a group of people, and the biggest of sin, @ that time, not being welcoming of visitors, etc... Today, people will chose those scriptures and turn it into something it is not. They will not look at the scripture ABOVE those lines that say kill those that do not recognize the sabbath, nor the ones below it that speak of stoning those that eat shellfish, clothes of mixed fibers, or planting mixed seeds etc...
The "homosexual" teachings that people THINK the bible speaks of is a 20th century concept. When you read scriptures of "spilling seed on the ground, etc..." the "sin" there would be NOT reproducing when engaging in sexual relations. So for the literalist that want to say that the bible speaks over and over about the sin of homosexuality...I say, they also need to start stoning those having sex without reproducing (hetero or homo),
cutting out tonuges of their children that sass them, the burning of those that do not respect the sabbath, etc.. You are either LITERALLY reading the bible or you're not! Literally reads are great for a 5 year old brain, but b/c God's grace gave man the ability to REASON..the biggest sin is those that fail to use it and are blindly fed by their church leaders so they don't have to do any work on their own.

I suppose that if us literist didn't take the Bible as a whole then we would probably be doing some of those things, but thankfully we can see in the NT the food scriptures of the OT are no longer in play. It is a shame that others can't and so they use those scriptures to try and prove that people are hateful, bigots, etc., when it comes to homosexuality.

When in fact it just makes them look...........well not to good at understanding the Bible, which then makes their arguments for homosexuality come into quesion. Or they are justing throwing out ploys, red herring, etc. to try to get people thoughts off what really is the issue. There maybe other reasons they do it, but thought I would just list those so I couldn't be accused of not stating why I feel a certain way.

So............you would think it ok for the government to say mixed seeds shouldn't be planted? Back when the governments were anointed by God alot of those scripures could have been carried out, but since that isn't the case anymore it is pretty well left to worldly thinking.

I always see how God wanted to govern us, but we wanted a King, so God anointed certain people to lead. Then because we .........................well we reap what we sow, over 2000 years we have taken more and more control over how we wanted to be governed, all the while taking God out of it.

The bible isn't relevant for today is just one more example of that, to me. I have even heard people say that Christians shouldnt' be allowed to vote because they can't separate their God given rules out of the worldly nation.

So do you know why they weren't to wear mixed fabrics, or why they weren't to plant mixed seeds? Does the fact that planting mixed seeds today probably isn't good matter, since they were put there to help us take care of our bodies? Kind of like the Creator telling the creation when the oil and fluids should be changed or checked? What do you want us to do about this, as I am sure many have confronted the fact that this isn't good, but many of those here think that Christians have no business making laws against others, even if they have scriptural backing?

The word homosexuality may not have been created yet with the meaning of today, but since descriptions like man laying with man like a woman were used all the one word to describe something does is make it take less words and take up less space then describing it all out. May have been better if we stuck with the long version, who knows?

 

[Floatingaxe]

When you come down to it, those who believe in The Bible alone and their own literal interpretation are rewriting scripture to suit their own personal paradigms.

That is error, pure and simple. We follow the Word of God as written and lean not unto our own understanding as God warns against. He anoints people to teach and through them, His Word and through other sisters and brothers in Christ, by His Holy Spirit, He speaks truth to our hearts.

LAy people reading the Bible and harping on John 3:16 is a NEW Americanized theology. Nothing to do with older churches.

Homosexuality is breeding self-appointed prophets!

John 3:16 is where it's at, without anyone reading into it! What are "older churches" ? The Body of Christ since the beginning has put forth the gospel as stated in John 3:16!! There is no older Church.

So you can throw as many accusations as you want to suit your POV...it's your own POV--you just believe The Bible is backing up your opinion, when it's not.

The Bible is what I believe. My opinions are all based on it! So your accusation rings hollow and rolls off my back...

I have no former theology such as Catholicism that I am renouncing in order to believe God's Word. There are no former beliefs that influence the pure Word to my heart. I was blessed to be raised on it!

 

[UnitedInChrist]

I suppose that if us literist didn't take the Bible as a whole then we would probably be doing some of those things, but thankfully we can see in the NT the food scriptures of the OT are no longer in play. It is a shame that others can't and so they use those scriptures to try and prove that people are hateful, bigots, etc., when it comes to homosexuality.

When in fact it just makes them look...........well not to good at understanding the Bible, which then makes their arguments for homosexuality come into quesion. Or they are justing throwing out ploys, red herring, etc. to try to get people thoughts off what really is the issue. There maybe other reasons they do it, but thought I would just list those so I couldn't be accused of not stating why I feel a certain way.

So............you would think it ok for the government to say mixed seeds shouldn't be planted? Back when the governments were anointed by God alot of those scripures could have been carried out, but since that isn't the case anymore it is pretty well left to worldly thinking.

I always see how God wanted to govern us, but we wanted a King, so God anointed certain people to lead. Then because we .........................well we reap what we sow, over 2000 years we have taken more and more control over how we wanted to be governed, all the while taking God out of it.

The bible isn't relevant for today is just one more example of that, to me. I have even heard people say that Christians shouldnt' be allowed to vote because they can't separate their God given rules out of the worldly nation.

So do you know why they weren't to wear mixed fabrics, or why they weren't to plant mixed seeds? Does the fact that planting mixed seeds today probably isn't good matter, since they were put there to help us take care of our bodies? Kind of like the Creator telling the creation when the oil and fluids should be changed or checked? What do you want us to do about this, as I am sure many have confronted the fact that this isn't good, but many of those here think that Christians have no business making laws against others, even if they have scriptural backing?

The word homosexuality may not have been created yet with the meaning of today, but since descriptions like man laying with man like a woman were used all the one word to describe something does is make it take less words and take up less space then describing it all out. May have been better if we stuck with the long version, who knows?

The term "man lying with man", was translated that way when the bible was first published in English...that was only in the 16th century. Human beings are called "men". When reading the bible, one can't take it at face value, simply b/c it is a reflection of the politics of it's time, it is reflective of custom's at it's time, and it was reflective of who was ruling at the time. I can not say what is truly meant just like a fundamentalist/literalist can not say...none of us were here then, and so who knows. What I do know is whether a literalist or not..EVERYONE interrprets what they read based on where they come from. It is not possible to read something without putting in your own thoughts as to what it says based on what you were taught. The bible is very relavent today. it is a TOOL. It is to make one think. It is a guide to follow and to learn from. The bible is not God himself, and yet people pray to it. People salute it. It is written by man. Men who have been said to be inspired by God. As men...men are with error. Men write and are influenced by their times. Every world war has been based on some sort of bible. There have been religious slaughters since the beginning of time all because of beliefs/faith etc.. It will always be that way b/c NO ONE KNOWS THE ANSWERS!!! The bottom line even literalists won't agree on what the bible says. No doubt you can take a literalist Jew, a literalist Christian, a literalist Amish, a Literalist Baptist, a literalist Luthern, etc...and no doubt they will all give their "interpretation" of what the bible says....all because we are people from all walks of life.

 

[Floatingaxe]

The Bible is more than a tool--it is the inspired Word of God. It is the truth and you cannot merely reason. The Holy Spirit speaks through it--the Word of God is a living breathing thing.

That is why we are told to eat of it, fill ourselves full of it, memorize it, because it becomes part of who we are. Making the Word part of our very beings enables us to live according to the truth of God.