Amos 3:7, the New Testament & the Commandments

Bob S · Jul 2, 2017

1John2:4 said:
I apologise for putting words in your mouth,

Thanks, we all read things into a persons posts that may or may not be what we perceive.

the new Covenant was to put His laws on our inward parts.

That cannot be John. God gave laws only to Israel for their use. They were not meant for any other people. Jesus came to fulfill the law. The dictionary tells me that to fulfill means to bring to an end. Paul confirms that over and over. What I believe is scriptural.

I know I aggravate Messianics when I ask them why they don't build a temple and reinstate the levitical priesthood. You tell us that it is the Torah that is written in our hearts yet when I ask you if you wear tassels on the four corners of your garments I never have received an answer. If it is written in the heart it must be a requirement. The Sabbath issue is the one I like to expound on. If it is written in the heart why are not but a few that observe it. It would seem that if the Holy Spirit was pricking the conscience people would be flooding to Sabbath observing churches. When I was SDA we spent millions after millions trying to convince the world that Sabbath was a requirement for Christians. Very few ever made the decision to join. Even if they did many would soon leave.

I don't believe that only some of His laws are placed on our inward parts and because of our own understanding we decide whether or not they are moral. I believe if we love God we will choose to follow all of His instuctions at least the ones we can do until His return.

I do too believe we should follow His instructions and in Jn13:34 Jesus makes that quite clear as does Jn 15:10. !jn3:19-24 is also quite explicit as to how we are to live. In fact verse 19 says: 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: and goes on to tell us:
23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Why wouldn't Jn tell us we had to keep Torah? Was he wrong too? Are you to be believed over scripture?

The law is spiritual Paul said that and we are constantly at war with our flesh which is against His law we must overcome and we can through the blood of Jesus if we cry out to Him with a humble heart and confess our lawlessness He promises He will forgive.

It is not the laws God gave Israel that brings life everlasting. Abraham didn't have those laws yet he will be in Heaven. Why do you think you must observe laws that were made only as a way to live in Canaan? Why would you believe they are Holy for Christianity?

Yanni depp · Jul 2, 2017

listed said:
Then what would you say those "My commandments" in the verse are?

The threads about the big ten. I would use broader strokes than that tho.

1John2:4 · Jul 3, 2017

bugkiller said:
So I do not understand why you cling to the covenant issued to Israel. Your post really sounds like double speak.

bugkiller

What exactly is the double speak about my post?

listed · Jul 3, 2017

1John2:4 said:
Where exactly does he say that those who keep the law won't inherit eternal life?

Accepting Jesus is the new Covenant and none can enter in without Him. The new Covent is a marriage Covenant and if one clings to the old Covenant the law written on stone then they would be married to one that is dead. We must enter the new Covenant through Yeshua in order to partake of the promise this does not do away with the law because in the new Covenant His instructions are to be written on our inward parts not abolished. That is why Paul writes to those who know the law because of the marriage Covent within the law in order demistrate the 2 Covenants.

It says it right here: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

This is an allegory. It isn't talking about about specific people. The subject of the chapter, in fact the whole book is the law. it isn't pro law either. Paul also states those who require the law (return to the law) for righteousness forsake Jesus in the next chapter. He says they make Jesus of no effect.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I concur with you desire to eliminate sin. That can't be done with any law. Romans 8:3 says so.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

This marriage you talk about is also mentioned in Romans 7. You're trying to be married to two husbands which Paul calls adultery (sin).

listed · Jul 3, 2017

Yanni depp said:
The threads about the big ten. I would use broader strokes than that tho.

Would you please answer my question? I didn't post John 14:15. You did in post #2.

listed · Jul 3, 2017

1John2:4 said:
What exactly is the double speak about my post?

If buggy decides to show you, would you believe him? I've doubts.

listed · Jul 3, 2017

BobRyan said:
Until you read the New Covenant and Romans 8:4-10

And find that in Romans 6 "not being under the LAW" includes choosing not to SIN - where "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4, for "The one whom you obey - that one is your master"

You've been told more than once no doubt you're promoting a half truth because the verse your partial quote comes from says sin is also transgression of the law. This means that sin isn't only transgression of the law. In this case the verse is talking about the Mosaic law also known as the ten commandments. Since gentiles weren't ever given this law they can't violate it. Does that mean gentiles can't sin? How many examples do you need to prov they in fact did?

listed · Jul 3, 2017

1John2:4 said:
I believe John (Yokanon) who was Jewish believed in the prophecies that the Law would come out of Zion, Isaiah 2:3 Michah 4:2. So if you will notice when John speaks of Yeshua - Jesus, he refers to Him as the Word became flesh that is the Law that came from Zion. One may think that this Gospel differs from the synoptic gossples, but I do not think it really does if you take in context that the word made flesh is this same Law prophecied about in Isaiah and Amos. Believing in Jesus is believing what He is in the entire Word Genisis to Revelation. No where is it prophecied that God would send His Servant or the Son of Man or whatever title He is given in prophecy by the prophets do away with God's law. He was always to come and save us from sin. If you believe that the gospel account by John and Revelation has the same writer you will find contradiction. There is no contradiction between the synoptic gosples or Revelation or John. Yeshua IS the Word made flesh and to believe is to believe that He is the one prophecied about who did NOT come to do away with the Father's commandments but to establish them. Yes, including the Shabbat The Father's commandments are the Sons commandments and to believe is to follow, to walk as He walked. This was the same for Abraham he kept God's instuctions and God knew that he would teach them to his children and his children's children and they would have faith. Genisis 18:19 This is the same God gave them to His Son who gives them to us to guard and protect.

John 1 We proclaim to you the one who existed from the beginning, whom we have heard and seen. We saw him with our own eyes and touched him with our own hands. He is the Word of life. 2 This one who is life itself was revealed to us, and we have seen him. And now we testify and proclaim to you that he is the one who is eternal life. He was with the Father, and then he was revealed to us.3 We proclaim to you what we ourselves have actually seen and heard so that you may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We are writing these things so that you may fully share our joy.

Living in the Light
5 This is the message we heard from Jesus and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all. 6 So we are lying if we say we have fellowship with God but go on living in spiritual darkness; we are not practicing the truth. 7 But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. 9 But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts.

You listen only to your present or past religious leaders. You won't listen to Scripture. Never-the-less I'll give it to you again:

Jeremiah 31:32

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

This covenant they broke is the ten commandments:

Deuteronomy 4:13

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

You still won't listen. If Jesus isn't your high priest, you're not a Christian. This means the law has changed. Jesus isn't from the tribe of Levi and can't be a priest according to the law. Hebrews 7:12. Therefore jots and tittles of the law have changed. Jesus lays the foundation for this change with His statement in Luke 24:44. And yes the words "concerning Me" are found in the Greek text. The statement is a direct reference to Matthew 5.

listed · Jul 3, 2017

1John2:4 said:
I apologise for putting words in your mouth, the new Covenant was to put His laws on our inward parts. I don't believe that only some of His laws are placed on our inward parts and because of our own understanding we decide whether or not they are moral. I believe if we love God we will choose to follow all of His instuctions at least the ones we can do until His return. The law is spiritual Paul said that and we are constantly at war with our flesh which is against His law we must overcome and we can through the blood of Jesus if we cry out to Him with a humble heart and confess our lawlessness He promises He will forgive.

The new covenant doesn't place the old covenant in our hearts.

listed · Jul 3, 2017

BobRyan said:
The NEW Covenant? "made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah" Hebrews 8:6-10..??? is that the part you say you do not understand??

Maybe you can say buggy doesn't understand that. I read Acts. Acts doesn't agree with you. John doesn't either. Gentiles can partake of the same new covenant without becoming Jews. You're clearly preaching Judaism and requiring it of Christians. The Apostles said no.

listed · Jul 3, 2017

BobRyan said:
hmmmm.... let's see what was just posted as the answer to that..

You didn't quote from Matthew. Why? Do you think we don't know what you're reference point is? The basis for the grace people to base their position on is Luke 24:44. This allows for jots and tittles of the law to pass. Hebrews 7:12 is proof that the law has indeed passed. Otherwise God (Jesus) is also a sinner. Then we have verses like Galatians 3:19 showing the law was for a period of time which has passed because the Seed (Jesus) came.

benelchi · Jul 3, 2017

SAAN said:
Amos 3:7
7 Surely the Lord God does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

This verse makes it pretty clear that God does nothing that he doesn't reveal through his prophets first. There are the Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled by Jesus and other examples like sending a messenger(John the baptist), the telling of the future in Daniel and some of the other Prophets that agree with Revelations, and more.

So where in any of the prophets did God reveal to them that the 10 commandments were temporary or that he was going to abolish all of his commands in the future???

The Apostle Paul lays out a very strong argument for why we, as Christians, are no longer under the Law. He begins by looking back to the Old Testament and recognizing that our covenant with God is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant, a covenant that preceded the Mosaic covenant and was superior to the Mosaic covenant. Paul pleads with us to not foolishly put our trust in the Law.

“O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain-- if indeed it was in vain? Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith-- just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"? Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith. For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."

Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith." But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us-- for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"-- so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith. To give a human example, brothers: even with a man-made covenant, no one annuls it or adds to it once it has been ratified. Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, "And to offsprings," referring to many, but referring to one, "And to your offspring," who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise. Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one. Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” (Gal. 3:1-27 ESV)

1John2:4 · Jul 3, 2017

Bob S said:
Thanks, we all read things into a persons posts that may or may not be what we perceive.

That cannot be John. God gave laws only to Israel for their use. They were not meant for any other people. Jesus came to fulfill the law. The dictionary tells me that to fulfill means to bring to an end. Paul confirms that over and over. What I believe is scriptural.

I know I aggravate Messianics when I ask them why they don't build a temple and reinstate the levitical priesthood. You tell us that it is the Torah that is written in our hearts yet when I ask you if you wear tassels on the four corners of your garments I never have received an answer. If it is written in the heart it must be a requirement. The Sabbath issue is the one I like to expound on. If it is written in the heart why are not but a few that observe it. It would seem that if the Holy Spirit was pricking the conscience people would be flooding to Sabbath observing churches. When I was SDA we spent millions after millions trying to convince the world that Sabbath was a requirement for Christians. Very few ever made the decision to join. Even if they did many would soon leave.

I do too believe we should follow His instructions and in Jn13:34 Jesus makes that quite clear as does Jn 15:10. !jn3:19-24 is also quite explicit as to how we are to live. In fact verse 19 says: 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: and goes on to tell us:
23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Why wouldn't Jn tell us we had to keep Torah? Was he wrong too? Are you to be believed over scripture?

It is not the laws God gave Israel that brings life everlasting. Abraham didn't have those laws yet he will be in Heaven. Why do you think you must observe laws that were made only as a way to live in Canaan? Why would you believe they are Holy for Christianity?

Thank you for the reply Bob,

John 13:34 does not do away with God's instuctions Jesus has instructed His deciples to love each other, nothing is said about removing God's instuctions in this passage.

John 15:10 He kept The Father's commandments, that is love we keep His commandment which are the same as the Father they are one so must we. This does not say I have done away with the Father's commandments. It's states quite the opposite, they are passed down from the Father to the Son to us so we can glorify God and love each other. I do not see where the commandments are done away with in this verse.

John 3:19-24
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He remained with them and baptized. 23 Now John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there. And they came and were baptized. 24 For John had not yet been thrown into prison.

Where in this passage does the Son do away with The Father's instuctions?

The OP is about the prophets writing about what is to come, I do not recall the prophets stating that the Messiah was going to do away with God's law. The fullfillment is what was written Isaiah 53 Psalm 22. He will come and suffer for our transgression. I would be interested if you could show me in any of the prophecies in the Tenakh (OT) where that prophets said the Messiah would put an end to God's law.

1John2:4 · Jul 3, 2017

Bob S said:
Thanks, we all read things into a persons posts that may or may not be what we perceive.

That cannot be John. God gave laws only to Israel for their use. They were not meant for any other people. Jesus came to fulfill the law. The dictionary tells me that to fulfill means to bring to an end. Paul confirms that over and over. What I believe is scriptural.

I know I aggravate Messianics when I ask them why they don't build a temple and reinstate the levitical priesthood. You tell us that it is the Torah that is written in our hearts yet when I ask you if you wear tassels on the four corners of your garments I never have received an answer. If it is written in the heart it must be a requirement. The Sabbath issue is the one I like to expound on. If it is written in the heart why are not but a few that observe it. It would seem that if the Holy Spirit was pricking the conscience people would be flooding to Sabbath observing churches. When I was SDA we spent millions after millions trying to convince the world that Sabbath was a requirement for Christians. Very few ever made the decision to join. Even if they did many would soon leave.

I do too believe we should follow His instructions and in Jn13:34 Jesus makes that quite clear as does Jn 15:10. !jn3:19-24 is also quite explicit as to how we are to live. In fact verse 19 says: 19 This is how we know that we belong to the truth and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence: and goes on to tell us:
23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Why wouldn't Jn tell us we had to keep Torah? Was he wrong too? Are you to be believed over scripture?

It is not the laws God gave Israel that brings life everlasting. Abraham didn't have those laws yet he will be in Heaven. Why do you think you must observe laws that were made only as a way to live in Canaan? Why would you believe they are Holy for Christianity?

Just one last question I did not answer. Why do I choose to observe these commandment. Because God said it will go well with me to follow His instructions, He created me and I have faith that He knows what is best for me. If I want to know how to live in rightousness I will do what God says is good even if my human brain cannot make it fit in my moral box.

Why do you choose not to follow God's instuctions?

1John2:4 · Jul 3, 2017

listed said:
The new covenant doesn't place the old covenant in our hearts.

In scripture where does it separate out what part of the law will be written on our heart? Where does it say the law with the exception of the Sabbath and other assorted laws?

1John2:4 · Jul 3, 2017

listed said:
It says it right here: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

This is an allegory. It isn't talking about about specific people. The subject of the chapter, in fact the whole book is the law. it isn't pro law either. Paul also states those who require the law (return to the law) for righteousness forsake Jesus in the next chapter. He says they make Jesus of no effect.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I concur with you desire to eliminate sin. That can't be done with any law. Romans 8:3 says so.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

This marriage you talk about is also mentioned in Romans 7. You're trying to be married to two husbands which Paul calls adultery (sin).

I never said by our own rightousness, even quoted Dueteronomy 9 and said same was for Israel.

Please read my quotes before you reply with saying what I said and did not say.

The Covenant is a marriage Covent read Isaiah and Jerimiah. Israel played the harlot and broke the Covenant so God devorced her read them please it will explain this. I was going to cut verses but you really need to read the entire book to understand what God did to Israel and to Judah.

I said the old Covenant is dead did you not read that in my post?

The new Covenant for Israel and Judah and (gentiles get to be apart by being grafted in)is THE LAW WRITTEN on OUR INWARD PARTS. Not parts of the law not what we determine as moral and immoral. We are never given the authority to decide what is and is not sin where does scripture even hint to that idea? God defines sin in His law.

Jesus paid the price for our lawlessness deeds now we are to walk in newness of life, not continue in lawlessness.

I wish to ask you this question, where was it prophecied that the Messiah would do away with God's law?

Yanni depp · Jul 3, 2017

listed said:
Would you please answer my question? I didn't post John 14:15. You did in post #2.

I did answer.

Yanni depp said:
The threads about the big ten. I would use broader strokes than that tho.

That means ten commandments and more.
Sounds like your waiting to get something off your chest....?

1John2:4 · Jul 3, 2017

listed said:
You listen only to your present or past religious leaders. You won't listen to Scripture. Never-the-less I'll give it to you again:

Jeremiah 31:32

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

This covenant they broke is the ten commandments:

Deuteronomy 4:13

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

You still won't listen. If Jesus isn't your high priest, you're not a Christian. This means the law has changed. Jesus isn't from the tribe of Levi and can't be a priest according to the law. Hebrews 7:12. Therefore jots and tittles of the law have changed. Jesus lays the foundation for this change with His statement in Luke 24:44. And yes the words "concerning Me" are found in the Greek text. The statement is a direct reference to Matthew 5.

This is what I have gleened from scripture not what someone told me to believe. I do not have a leader. I watch teachings from various Messianic teachers but if it contradics the Word of God I choose to longer listen. Scripture is a whole, we err if we take bits and pieces and create a thology based on our own understanding. As I have said in the past this is my interpretation it is not the Word of God so take it as you will.

bugkiller · Jul 3, 2017

1John2:4 said:
What exactly is the double speak about my post?

I will try to be nice and not combative in my answer.

You need to read your post several times and think about it. It is glaringly obvious.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jul 3, 2017

listed said:
If buggy decides to show you, would you believe him? I've doubts.

Why would I waste more of my time? At best I think he would only consider things a bit differently. He is here teaching, not learning. He gets upset when I do not take his view as mine or thump him with a like.

bugkiller

Amos 3:7, the New Testament & the Commandments

Well-Known Member

Est. 1986

Well-Known Member

are you?

are you?

are you?

are you?

are you?

are you?

are you?

are you?

INACTIVE

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Est. 1986

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency