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Amillenial Baptists?

Hentenza

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The early church, including Jesus' own disciples, believed in the imminent return of Jesus. They were living under heavy persecution from Rome; in their eyes it was the last days. The Gospel was being preached everywhere, just like Jesus predicted; the church was being persecuted, just like Jesus predicted; Jerusalem and the Temple had been destroyed, just like Jesus predicted. All that was left, as far as the early church was concerned, was for Jesus to appear.

Therefore, the end time eschatology of the early church would have been one of imminence. It's only when it appeared that Jesus was delaying did end times theology start to change; as the years, decades and centuries went by the church started to make up new things like "amillennialism" and "premillennialism" and "postmillennialism" to try and untangle the mess that is end times prophecy.

Portions of this is correct but others are a stretch. For example, the apostles during Jesus time believed as the Jews believed, that Jesus would reign in the literal throne of David and deliver God's people. You can see this unfold clearly in Matthew and Luke. The imminence of His return dealt directly with the fulfillment of the literal kingdom on earth not with just the return of Jesus.
 
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Communion

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The Trinity, incarnation, virgin birth, and resurrection are biblical literal truths. Ammelianism, on the other hand, is biblical allegory. The early church held a pre mil position. It only change to amil as Rome and the pope began to gain positional power.

lol~there are plenty of Christian denoms that will say all those doctrines are allegorical:D
 
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Hentenza

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It took me a while to see that but it is true. Amillenialism is full of ecclesiology as well. And is used to try to uphold the theory of replacement theology.

That's true.
 
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LargeTrout

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Portions of this is correct but others are a stretch. For example, the apostles during Jesus time believed as the Jews believed, that Jesus would reign in the literal throne of David and deliver God's people. You can see this unfold clearly in Matthew and Luke. The imminence of His return dealt directly with the fulfillment of the literal kingdom on earth not with just the return of Jesus.

I wasn't talking about the Apostles while Jesus was on earth. I was talking about them, and the early church, after Jesus had died, risen and ascended. When Jerusalem and the Temple had been destroyed, the disciples and early Christians surely would have remembered Jesus' prophecies and believed the end was near. Also, Paul preached an imminent return and, from some of the things he revealed about the churches he wrote to, they believed in the imminent return of Jesus too.
 
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Hentenza

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I wasn't talking about the Apostles while Jesus was on earth. I was talking about them, and the early church, after Jesus had died, risen and ascended. When Jerusalem and the Temple had been destroyed, the disciples and early Christians surely would have remembered Jesus' prophecies and believed the end was near. Also, Paul preached an imminent return and, from some of the things he revealed about the churches he wrote to, they believed in the imminent return of Jesus too.

The Apostles founded the early church. Their belief that Jesus would return to fulfill yet unfulfilled prophesies did not change after Jesus death. Paul understood this perfectly. He preached the kingdom through the gospel. So did John who wrote Revelation a few years after the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple including teaching about the 1000 year literal earthly reign of Christ. This reign will fulfill the yet unfulfilled prophesy regarding Jesus reigning from the throne of David(Luke 1:32-33).

And yes, Christ return is imminent. This understanding does not conflict with the pre mill position.
 
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Hentenza

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Oooooooo..."imminent return".

"Realized Eschatology".

You and I will get into trouble preaching this brother.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Nah, no "realized eschatology" for me. Just a high desire for our Lord to return now. :thumbsup:
 
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Pete_Martinez

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In that case the modern evangelical default position would be Premil Dispensationalism.
I agree. I'm not saying that holding on to default positions automatically makes it correct but I do agree with that statement.

I've read The Apocalypse Code and it seems Hank is a partial preterist.

Yes, Hank does not say he is a partial preterist but he continues to argue that revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD but he also believes Christ will come back. Thus, I would definitely call him a partial preterist.

Considering that many of the reformers had a catholic background it is not surprising that the default position of reformed theology to believe in the trinity.

Considering that many of the reformers had a catholic background it is not surprising that the default position of reformed theology is to believe in the incarnation.

Considering that many of the reformers had a catholic background it is not surprising that the default position of reformed theology is to believe in the virgin birth.

Considering that many of the reformers had a catholic background it is not surprising that the default position of reformed theology is to believe in the resurrection.

....your point?

They also believed in purgatory and indulgences. Saying that they have some of their doctrine correct does not automatically make all of their doctrine correct.

The Trinity, incarnation, virgin birth, and resurrection are biblical literal truths. Ammelianism, on the other hand, is biblical allegory. The early church held a pre mil position. It only change to amil as Rome and the pope began to gain positional power.

Another argument that is used is that you don't see premillenialism prior to the 18th century. Considering that Rome had power for far so many years it should not be surprising that we didn't see premillenialism in the church history. The reformation had to do with soteriology, the doctrine relating to salvation. Therefore I understand why the reformers didn't reform eschatology as well. I would much rather we get our doctrine straight on salvation than eschatology. But the only reason I raise any objection to amillenialism and preterism is because it is something I have trouble completely embracing. As I read and study the scriptures, old and new testament I find myself jumping back to a premillenial position. One of the most common themes in the Old Testament, besides the coming of Christ, is the forgiveness and restoration of Israel. It is almost in every single book.

The early church, including Jesus' own disciples, believed in the imminent return of Jesus. They were living under heavy persecution from Rome; in their eyes it was the last days. The Gospel was being preached everywhere, just like Jesus predicted; the church was being persecuted, just like Jesus predicted; Jerusalem and the Temple had been destroyed, just like Jesus predicted. All that was left, as far as the early church was concerned, was for Jesus to appear.

Therefore, the end time eschatology of the early church would have been one of imminence. It's only when it appeared that Jesus was delaying did end times theology start to change; as the years, decades and centuries went by the church started to make up new things like "amillennialism" and "premillennialism" and "postmillennialism" to try and untangle the mess that is end times prophecy.

Exactly, and it also doesn't help when Israel has vanished as a nation for hundreds of years. The idea was that since Jesus Christ did not appear immediately, they had misunderstood what he really meant. It was the church's job to take over the world, and once it had gotten to a point where most if not all of the world was converted that Christ would appear. We have the same idea in dominion theology, which is getting a huge reappearing in our modern days, especially in the mormon church.

Portions of this is correct but others are a stretch. For example, the apostles during Jesus time believed as the Jews believed, that Jesus would reign in the literal throne of David and deliver God's people. You can see this unfold clearly in Matthew and Luke. The imminence of His return dealt directly with the fulfillment of the literal kingdom on earth not with just the return of Jesus.

Which is why Paul would say...
Act 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made of God unto our fathers:
Act 26:7 Unto which promise our twelve tribes, instantly serving God day and night, hope to come. For which hope's sake, king Agrippa, I am accused of the Jews.
Act 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?
 
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student ad x

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It took me a while to see that but it is true. Amillenialism is full of ecclesiology as well. And is used to try to uphold the theory of replacement theology.
smiley_emoticons_skeptisch.gif
....... gotta love that term "replacement theology".
 
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DD2008

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smiley_emoticons_skeptisch.gif
....... gotta love that term "replacement theology".

It's a general term for any system that espouses the view that the Church has replaced Israel, instead of espousing the biblical view that there is a difference between Israel and the Church.
 
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Pete_Martinez

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I've never heard that one before.

It's used more as an anti-rapture argument but there are a few who use it to attempt to disprove pre-millenialism.

I'm sure you've heard of Darby. Some argue that Darby came up with the idea of pre-millenialism and the rapture, and that prior to him those ideas never existed.
 
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Pete_Martinez

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You folks ever hear of (I can't copy the exact quote because I don't have enough posts yet)

Oh hey! Lol, there it is! Yea just as I had described in my prior post. I never heard that pre-millenialism was a jesuit conspiracy. I'll continue checking out your link.
 
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JM

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You are equating ancient premillennialism found among, for the most part, Jewish converts, with the modern form of Dispensational Premillennialism created by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. Actually, the Dispensationalism of Darby, Larkin, Scofield and even Ryrie all differ greatly. The idea of a pre-tribulation rapture was not held before Darby.
 
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Pete_Martinez

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That's funny, most of the people on the list, the ones perpetuating the "Jesuit Lie" I would not even bother listening to.

The only problem I have with the link is that it mentions the antichrist coming from rome. In the book of Daniel the antichrist rises from one of the four kingdoms after Alexander the great dies.

Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. (which really happened, Alexander's sons were murdered and power went to his four generals which took up a piece of his empire)
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom(of the four generals when Alexander is gone), when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

In order for "comes up among 10 horns (the divided successors of the Pagan Roman Empire)" to be true, you have to show...
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

that the "ten kings" that arise after Rome falls give their power to the antichrist and then in turn antichrist destroys three of those kings.

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

And they have to do it fairly quickly.

It makes more sense for the horns to be a completely different entity from the woman mentioned in Revelation 17. Because it also says...

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

Those "ten kings" historically did not destroy three of themselves or turn on Rome. Do you see why I can't go with the historicist view?

I mean maybe if you just read Revelation and that's it I could agree with it. But it runs into problems when you add the information from Daniel.
 
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