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durangodawood

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I do find it funny the right portraying Biden as a far left socialist:doh:...
Its totally predictable. Its what Trump people need to do to make their guy look remotely reasonable in their own eyes.

Biden as far left. Ugh.... it gets old and tiresome dealing with people living in total non-reality day after day. But thats America these days.
 
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Athanasius377

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As for Hosanna-Tabor, that's a pretty narrow decision that only applies to religion teachers and people employed as "ministers". For example, a Catholic school would be very limited in its use of that decision because priests and deacons are explicitly ordained, and women cannot be members of the clergy. I went to a Catholic grade school, and all of my religion teachers taught other subjects as well and were not in any way ordained.
True. But aren’t nuns and other teachers considered ministers under the ministerial exception? The reason I ask besides the fact I don’t know is that the majority opinion(s) has more or less stated that it’s not the government’s role to determine what constitutes a minister under the exception.

it’s been years since I read the opinion that’s so I’m recalling from memory so it’s possible I don’t have the facts right.
 
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hedrick

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True. But aren’t nuns and other teachers considered ministers under the ministerial exception? The reason I ask besides the fact I don’t know is that the majority opinion(s) has more or less stated that it’s not the government’s role to determine what constitutes a minister under the exception.
There’s some ambiguity about someone teaching a non religious subject. It may depend upon details of the case. The Supreme Court has an opportunity to clarify it soon.
 
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Athanasius377

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There’s some ambiguity about someone teaching a non religious subject. It may depend upon details of the case. The Supreme Court has an opportunity to clarify it soon.
How so? The court decided Hosannah Tabor 9-0 and given Roberts reluctance to overturn precedent I’m not sure what would be the case. It was a narrow ruling in the legal sense so I suppose there could be ambiguity as you state. I’m just not sure the court would be willing given its current make up to tackle the issue again. Of course it would be preferable if Congress were to legislate the definition on the federal level and the states make up their mind on the local level.
 
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RocksInMyHead

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True. But aren’t nuns and other teachers considered ministers under the ministerial exception? The reason I ask besides the fact I don’t know is that the majority opinion(s) has more or less stated that it’s not the government’s role to determine what constitutes a minister under the exception.

it’s been years since I read the opinion that’s so I’m recalling from memory so it’s possible I don’t have the facts right.
Nuns probably would, but considering (most) nuns take vows of poverty and are generally subordinate - at some level, at least - to the leadership of the school outside of an educational capacity, firing them is essentially meaningless. They would just do something else within the order if it was decided that they couldn't (or shouldn't) be a teacher.

Teachers of other subjects though would generally not be considered ministers. I believe the wording on the decision was that they would defer to a religious organization's "good-faith determination of what constitutes a minister". I think it would be difficult to claim, in good faith, that your science teacher is a minister - unless he or she is ordained in some way.

As has already been pointed out, it hasn't really been tested yet, so we don't know for sure, but I think that's a reasonable interpretation.
 
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mindlight

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Yes, Communism was profoundly dehumanising. That doesn't alter the point however. Jesus lived under a puppet ruler, himself under control of the occupying Roman empire, and paid no attention to it at all. When pushed, his response was 'give to Caesar what is Caesar's' - let the world manage it's own affairs. The same message is apparent throughout the Bible, under any conditions people who chose faith in God are expected to essentially mind their own business - the business of the church. The rest of it is about lifestyle choices, not faith.

The focus of Christs mission was on salvation and the Kings of the Earth are irrelevant to that. But the Kingship of Christ is over all nations and his expectation of a Kingdom is for all nations. The scriptures are clear that the Kings of the Earth will cower in terror at the coming of our King. Also you cannot ignore the entire witness of the Old Testament regarding Christians in secular positions of power and their responsibilities there. Since Constantine the idea of a Christian nation and its manifestation has produced more good fruit than bad, moulding laws, cultures and effecting important reforms. If you surrender the public square to the godless mob then you hand it over to people who can do the church real harm. This was painfully evident under Communism.
 
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Tom 1

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The focus of Christs mission was on salvation and the Kings of the Earth are irrelevant to that. But the Kingship of Christ is over all nations and his expectation of a Kingdom is for all nations. The scriptures are clear that the Kings of the Earth will cower in terror at the coming of our King. Also you cannot ignore the entire witness of the Old Testament regarding Christians in secular positions of power and their responsibilities there. Since Constantine the idea of a Christian nation and its manifestation has produced more good fruit than bad, moulding laws, cultures and effecting important reforms. If you surrender the public square to the godless mob then you hand it over to people who can do the church real harm. This was painfully evident under Communism.

Yes as a general influence or cultural/moral narrative, preserving tried and tested things like personal responsibility, the nuclear family, the practice of charity and so on, certainly it has been vital in maintaining societies based on those ideas. Jesus does however present a radically different paradigm - the example of the good Samaritan not hesitating to put himself in danger and treating a stranger as if he were a close relative presages Christ's own self sacrifice. Christ knowingly allowed himself to be taken into the Jewish and the Roman lions den and treated how they saw fit. Christians under the persecution of Rome followed this same example - not that they didn't try to escape, but neither did they see it as their role to take positions of political office in order to influence the state. In the early church any prospective members involved in service to the state were required to renounce that allegiance fully before being baptised into the church. It's a dangerous game, the modern day equivalent is the difference between a church that just stays out of politics - as an organisation, and to some extent as individuals, I don't think a follower of Christ can work in politics without undue compromise, although of course people have views and vote etc - and the obscene image presented by the corrupted 'prayer meetings' organised by the WH etc. You can't dip your toes too far in that pool without being drawn into an entirely other way of thinking.
 
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mindlight

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Yes as a general influence or cultural/moral narrative, preserving tried and tested things like personal responsibility, the nuclear family, the practice of charity and so on, certainly it has been vital in maintaining societies based on those ideas. Jesus does however present a radically different paradigm - the example of the good Samaritan not hesitating to put himself in danger and treating a stranger as if he were a close relative presages Christ's own self sacrifice. Christ knowingly allowed himself to be taken into the Jewish and the Roman lions den and treated how they saw fit. Christians under the persecution of Rome followed this same example - not that they didn't try to escape, but neither did they see it as their role to take positions of political office in order to influence the state. In the early church any prospective members involved in service to the state were required to renounce that allegiance fully before being baptised into the church. It's a dangerous game, the modern day equivalent is the difference between a church that just stays out of politics - as an organisation, and to some extent as individuals, I don't think a follower of Christ can work in politics without undue compromise, although of course people have views and vote etc - and the obscene image presented by the corrupted 'prayer meetings' organised by the WH etc. You can't dip your toes too far in that pool without being drawn into an entirely other way of thinking.
in the early church allegiance to the state meant swearing an oath and accepting Ceaser as a god along with the Pantheon of Greco Roman gods that went with him. So different from today. Daniel faced similar choices in office. The experience of people like Wilberforce ending slavery contradicts your advocacy of detachment. We can be compromised in all areas of life not just the public square so it is artificial to detach politics from private life in the way you do
 
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Tom 1

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in the early church allegiance to the state meant swearing an oath and accepting Ceaser as a god along with the Pantheon of Greco Roman gods that went with him. So different from today. Daniel faced similar choices in office. The experience of people like Wilberforce ending slavery contradicts your advocacy of detachment. We can be compromised in all areas of life not just the public square so it is artificial to detach politics from private life in the way you do

There are differences there - Daniel went into public service only after demonstrating that he would rather die than compromise his beliefs, the whole story hinges on that idea. Wilberforce acted as a free individual, not as a politician bound to the policies of his party. I do have political views, but I don't think any Christian can actually work in politics - it is not possible, I think, to take public office without engaging in the defence of things that are contrary to the individual standards of behaviour Christians are called to. I still have the my signed statement of allegiance to serve the Queen, that is a divided loyalty. Not that I think I ever will be called up, but in theory at least I could be called to go off and kill people in some other country for dubious motives. There are good, practical reasons why the message of 'come out and be separate' runs throughout the whole bible.
 
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mindlight

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There are differences there - Daniel went into public service only after demonstrating that he would rather die than compromise his beliefs, the whole story hinges on that idea. Wilberforce acted as a free individual, not as a politician bound to the policies of his party. I do have political views, but I don't think any Christian can actually work in politics - it is not possible, I think, to take public office without engaging in the defence of things that are contrary to the individual standards of behaviour Christians are called to. I still have the my signed statement of allegiance to serve the Queen, that is a divided loyalty. Not that I think I ever will be called up, but in theory at least I could be called to go off and kill people in some other country for dubious motives. There are good, practical reasons why the message of 'come out and be separate' runs throughout the whole bible.

There is no such thing as perfect people, so waiting till your perfect in any area of life including the public square is no excuse. Since the Queen is under God why is an oath to her contradictory of service to God. We obey as if serving God Rom 13 - 1-6
 
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Tom 1

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There is no such thing as perfect people, so waiting till your perfect in any area of life including the public square is no excuse. Since the Queen is under God why is an oath to her contradictory of service to God. We obey as if serving God Rom 13 - 1-6

Sure, nothing is perfect. The church I attended in the U.K. had the general stance of not commenting on politics from the pulpit, as it were, and in general the idea of drawing appropriate lines that were generally accepted was I think a good thing. You can’t just mix things up like that and expect it to end well. Jesus is our example after all and he roundly rejected any involvement in man’s institutions.
 
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mindlight

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Sure, nothing is perfect. The church I attended in the U.K. had the general stance of not commenting on politics from the pulpit, as it were, and in general the idea of drawing appropriate lines that were generally accepted was I think a good thing. You can’t just mix things up like that and expect it to end well. Jesus is our example after all and he roundly rejected any involvement in man’s institutions.

So you do not work for a company can fight for no army, can join no groups whatsoever. This is,a false asceticism and one of the reasons for the fall of a Christian Roman empire. The church prayed but would not join the army and the barbarians flooded over the border
 
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Tom 1

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So you do not work for a company can fight for no army, can join no groups whatsoever. This is,a false asceticism and one of the reasons for the fall of a Christian Roman empire. The church prayed but would not join the army and the barbarians flooded over the border

No I think you're reading a bit much into it there, a work contract is not a commitment to serve that company beyond the terms of a work contract, that's not really the same thing. Christian Roman Empire is an oxymoron, and floods of barbarians is really a matter of perspective, certainly the many communities of Jewish families put to the sword by 'holy' crusaders hardly would have seen them as righteous saviours. By that time in any case many of the barbarian tribes had already been converted to equally militaristic notions of Christian faith. Not that I don't like Western civilisation, I do, I thoroughly appreciate all of its benefits, but to equate state and church is just a basic denial of the inherent differences between them.
 
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Richard T

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Sounds reasonable on those worldly side questions.

But there is a salvation question that is coming up.

Those following Trump's way to do things -- such as deporting Christian refugees, or blocking Christian refugees from asylum -- Trump's way instead of Christ's instructions to His sheep -- that's a very serious wrong choice (to not follow Christ), and they risk to perish in the "second death". Unfortunately some have put their trust and hope and faith in Trump, which is explicitly against God's will, we learn -- Jeremiah 17:5 This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind, who makes the flesh his strength and turns his heart from the It's just much more serious an issue than people realize.
I do not trust in Trump, Biden or even America. Still, I would say Trump the candidate is a better choice than Biden for the worldly reasons I suggested.
 
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No I think you're reading a bit much into it there, a work contract is not a commitment to serve that company beyond the terms of a work contract, that's not really the same thing. Christian Roman Empire is an oxymoron, and floods of barbarians is really a matter of perspective, certainly the many communities of Jewish families put to the sword by 'holy' crusaders hardly would have seen them as righteous saviours. By that time in any case many of the barbarian tribes had already been converted to equally militaristic notions of Christian faith. Not that I don't like Western civilisation, I do, I thoroughly appreciate all of its benefits, but to equate state and church is just a basic denial of the inherent differences between them.

This is so wrong. God is Sovereign and every area of life public and private is his by right. When Christians withdraw from the public sector into their own little church cliques they do the world no favours. We are called to be salt and light and to make disciples of all nations teaching them to obey everything he has commanded us. A Christian politician can trust that Christ is with him through his mistakes , his failures, his compromises and his victories to the very end of the age. We cannot avoid getting our hands dirty if we live in the real world. There are so many biblical examples of this engagement it should be a moot point.
 
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Tom 1

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This is so wrong. God is Sovereign and every area of life public and private is his by right. When Christians withdraw from the public sector into their own little church cliques they do the world no favours. We are called to be salt and light and to make disciples of all nations teaching them to obey everything he has commanded us. A Christian politician can trust that Christ is with him through his mistakes , his failures, his compromises and his victories to the very end of the age. We cannot avoid getting our hands dirty if we live in the real world. There are so many biblical examples of this engagement it should be a moot point.

It seems to me you are mixing ideas there - as Paul says, we are to be concerned with the business of the church and with bringing people into the church, if they are interested. God is part of everyday life, but working, being part of the everyday world is entirely different to begin of the world. You can’t possibly miss that message, it’s a thread that runs from Noah to revelation. Someone involved in the running of the state cannot be also involved in the kingdom, it would be remarkably naive to think that you can simply mix the two. Sure, a politician can take ideas and so on from Christianity, but you can’t serve two masters - it simply isn’t possible. It requires a singular lack of understanding of the human psyche to think it can be divided like that.
 
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It seems to me you are mixing ideas there - as Paul says, we are to be concerned with the business of the church and with bringing people into the church, if they are interested. God is part of everyday life, but working, being part of the everyday world is entirely different to begin of the world. You can’t possibly miss that message, it’s a thread that runs from Noah to revelation. Someone involved in the running of the state cannot be also involved in the kingdom, it would be remarkably naive to think that you can simply mix the two. Sure, a politician can take ideas and so on from Christianity, but you can’t serve two masters - it simply isn’t possible. It requires a singular lack of understanding of the human psyche to think it can be divided like that.

King David was the state and he was also a man after Gods own heart. Daniel had a prominent position in various empires and was Gods man. Joseph ruled Egypt and was Gods man. This is entirely possible when you view God Almighty as Sovereign over the rise and fall of all Kings and Empires. Submission is always to God and is not required when God is not present.
 
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He was also a man after Bathsheba's heart.

Exactly an imperfect man in politics. An adulterer and arguably a murderer yet a man regarded as a man after Gods own heart. We have never had a perfect politician or ruler, there is always something wrong, so for Christians to simply withdraw from the public realm on the grounds of compromise or the chance of sinning is frankly ridiculous, we do that all that time anywhere and in whatever situations we are in.
 
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