America is a Civil Religion of Deism, not a Christian nation

[RDKirk]

At this point in time, it's all meaningless as to what the founding fathers believed.

We are Christians today and the nation and society itself, is very anti-Christian.

So, the only thing we can do is be true to Christ and practice our faith as best we can. This will change as persecution increases.

The debate matters to those Christians who can't understand that the past glories they imagine do not matter today.

 

[lifepsyop]

At this point in time, it's all meaningless as to what the founding fathers believed.

We are Christians today and the nation and society itself, is very anti-Christian.

So, the only thing we can do is be true to Christ and practice our faith as best we can. This will change as persecution increases.

True enough but at the same time Christians should be encouraged to detach themselves from, for lack of a better term, the 'spirit of America', which many still believe is somehow synonymous with Christianity itself.

I see in the church today this false idea that the ideals of American revolution and ideology of human liberty somehow overlap with the way of Christ laid out in the Gospel, but actually one may as well be mixing Christianity and Mormonism.

The United States as a political community is a kind of Civil Religion, based in the mythic Greek worldview, as Shining City that has emerged, through man's reason and willpower, out of the darkness of monarchical superstition, to allow man to live in the light of liberty to basically think and do whatever he pleases, including ruling himself by the stated powers of his own collective human will (democracy / republicanism) . Everything about it is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ... (and indeed the American Founders and Framers explicitly rejected the deity of Jesus Christ).... they just use the word "God" a lot. It's actually quite disturbing how hooked into Americanism the church is.

I don't think we need to actually do anything about it except realize all the America stuff is meaningless. We have a similar regard for America as Judah might have had while living in Babylonian exile. Yes, we obey our authorities, accepting that God has placed them there, but we don't live in this fairytale that we share in the same object of veneration or spiritual values, as Christians today try to impose upon pagan America.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

True enough but at the same time Christians should be encouraged to detach themselves from, for lack of a better term, the 'spirit of America', which many still believe is somehow synonymous with Christianity itself.

I see in the church today this false idea that the ideals of American revolution and ideology of human liberty somehow overlap with the way of Christ laid out in the Gospel, but actually one may as well be mixing Christianity and Mormonism.

The United States as a political community is a kind of Civil Religion, based in the mythic Greek worldview, as Shining City that has emerged, through man's reason and willpower, out of the darkness of monarchical superstition, to allow man to live in the light of liberty to basically think and do whatever he pleases, including ruling himself by the stated powers of his own collective human will (democracy / republicanism) . Everything about it is anti-Gospel and anti-Christ... (and indeed the American Founders and Framers explicitly rejected the deity of Jesus Christ).... they just use the word "God" a lot. It's actually quite disturbing how hooked into Americanism the church is.

I don't think we need to actually do anything about it except realize all the America stuff is meaningless. We have a similar regard for America as Judah might have had while living in Babylonian exile. Yes, we obey our authorities, accepting that God has placed them there, but we don't live in this fairytale that we share in the same object of veneration or spiritual values, as Christians today try to impose upon pagan America.

Have no doubt about it, the United States, in fact in the West, was based on Judeo/Christian values. They didn't always get it right, but it has far better for
people in America and the West than in other parts of the world.

"The Book That Made Your World," by Vishal Mangalwadi, gives many examples of how the West and the United States were developed from Judeo/Christian values found in the Bible.

Vishal Mangalwadi, born and raised in India, shows how British Colonialism and the Christian values they brought, made life better for Indians wherever they were able to. I thought this was strange until I started reading how live was like where the Hinduism and Islam were the primary religions of the culture, and how untouchability did so much harm to people over the centuries. He writes about how
when he was young and went to England the first time and saw how much better life was there than in India. As he shows, it wasn't because the English oppressed India, but rather the Bible which centered around the culture, changed people for the better. He points out that the first hospital and first schools were built by Christian missionaries. In fact, he shows how wherever colonialism developed in various Asian nations, life got better.

Outside of Christianity, it was rare that the people would go to help strangers not part of their culture. Yet, Christians went to all parts of the world and made things better for people who were strangers to them.

Even after WWII, Japanese POW's were shocked at how Japan treated their POW's, and how well they were treated here in the States. Why did they treat them so well? They learned that it was how they were raised in Christianity.

Even today with our nation rejecting God, we still have Jews and Christians bringing aid to other people of the world.

We may be a country where many of the Founding Fathers were deists, but even they were influenced by the Bible in the culture they lived in. They may have rejected Christian religion itself, but the values found in the Bible, were still ingrained in them.

 

[lifepsyop]

We may be a country where many of the Founding Fathers were diets, but even they were influenced by the Bible in the culture they lived in. They may have rejected Christian religion itself, but the values found in the Bible, were still ingrained in them.

And their values became ingrained in us. A pagan-style humanistic deism that exists in a state of rebellion against the authority of the God of Israel. For example, today our nation's major medical institutions are celebrating and encouraging transgenderism for children.

 

[Suggestion Box]

I have been informed that a post I made in a separate thread is relevant here. Please review:
Was the American Revolution a sin?

This is my case against the American Revolution; this is only one factor in this topic, but I think it's an important one. Keep in mind that I am willing to hear anyone out who thinks the Revolution was correct, but I have yet to find a conclusive argument saying so. Also keep in mind that I do recognize the USA as a legitimate nation, because God's appointed authority did finally recognize it.

 

[lifepsyop]

I have been informed that a post I made in a separate thread is relevant here. Please review:
Was the American Revolution a sin?

This is my case against the American Revolution; this is only one factor in this topic, but I think it's an important one. Keep in mind that I am willing to hear anyone out who thinks the Revolution was correct, but I have yet to find a conclusive argument saying so. Also keep in mind that I do recognize the USA as a legitimate nation, because God's appointed authority did finally recognize it.

I think it reveals a particular blindness of modern Christians. We are too in love with the spirit of Americanism to see the truth of how rebellious it was against God's command... taking up arms against a king, (who by most accounts was a just and fair Christian monarch)... slaughtering other Christians on the battlefield in the name of lower taxes and self-government... and churches all over America will still celebrate this as one of the greatest events in history.

The same blindness manifests with the American founders themselves who were largely Deist and Masonic, aligning themselves to a tradition that explicitly rejects the authority of the Bible and the divinity of Jesus Christ.

The founding of the American nation was all about the exaltation and worship of man. (The spirit of this is captured in the "Apotheosis of George Washington" painting)

We even have a massive idol of the god of America, the statue of Liberty carrying the torch of man's enlightenment and liberation from all authority. It's right there staring us in the face.

You come to understand all those accounts of Israel setting up idols to Baal all through the land. There is a kind of delusion that settles over a rebellious people which makes them blind to what should be very clear signs of danger.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The founding of the United States was predicated by the Christian mindset, that began in Israel, but spread throughout Europe. In Western Europe, even atheists and anti-Christian minds were developed within the Judeo/Christian culture.

It spread to the US and the Enlightenment period, but even then, these things developed out of the Judeo/Christian culture.

Was the American Revolution a sin? If we lived in that time we probably would think not. King George I was far from being a fair-minded leader. He imposed taxes and declared the death sentence on anyone who defiled his orders. The Tower of London was a place of torture for both murders, thieves and political prisoners. You didn't want to go there.

In the colonies during the British rule, the soldiers of the English Army, could force you to house and feed their soldiers, at will. The commanding officer could have you or your loved one's executed for violating his just or unjust orders. Taxes were imposed by the British Government without representation from the Colonies. More than that, the monarchy in England could impose laws and restrictions on colonists without their say. Was it a sin to revolt against this? It may have been under a just war doctrine. Keep in mind that when early Christians were told to obey the authorities, they had no choice and would've been wiped out as soon as they tried to rebel. Better to go along on order to get along at that time. Eventually, the Continental Congress was ordered to disband.

The Founding Fathers, some who were deists, some who were Christian, all put their lives on the line when they signed the Declaration of Independence. Regardless of what atheists try to say today, the Founding Fathers were born and raised in a Christian culture with Judeo/Christian standards. Tell us of another form of government that existed which was better?

If America had not been born on that July 4th, nations in Western Europe would've remained under the rule of Kings, Queens and tyrannical dictators. The United States was the first country on the history of the world, to have a government by the people and for the people, with the checks and balances to preserve it. It wasn't perfect, but it evolved to where we are today. Was it the result of God's will? I think it was or it would've failed.

What would you replace it with if you detest this government so much?

 

[Suggestion Box]

If the US is not a Christian nation, or if the American Revolution is sinful, that does not mean that one must detest the US government. Just like in Rome, we should honor and respect the government and pay taxes (Romans 13:7) because God has appointed its leaders to power. I think that God did not condone the Revolution, but after King George III ceded authority to the US, the US gained authority. And there is no authority except from God... so those that exist must have been instituted by God (Romans 13:1). Therefore we should not detest the US government.

This is a difficult thing to do, but it must be done. There are exceptions: we must obey God rather than men. If they command you to put your allegiance to the US higher than that of Christ, you must not. (For instance, I see quite a few Christian flags mounted underneath US flags... and I question the sincerity of their faith). I also remain cautiously pessimistic about the pledge of allegiance, and it's a shame because there are some kids programs I might otherwise get my sons involved in. But if even if leaders are evil people, but they're not commanding you to do something evil, or commanding you not to do something Christ commands, then you can't disregard their authority.

Why is it so important to us today that we get this correct? Because we are currently living under tyranny far surpassing that of King George III. What am I talking about? I'm comfortable. I have freedom. I have no lack of sustenance. I am not being persecuted. But am I supposed to be content while our government is endorsing, enforcing, and funding the mass extermination of millions of smaller, weaker humans, merely because I am not the one suffering from this? I would not have rebelled in Nazi Germany; I would not have rebelled in Rome; I would not rebel in modern day Russia. But all these have tyranny, and we should not be satisfied with it.

If we say that the USA's founders rebelled within the limits of Christian virtue, then we would have to also say that it is generally correct to rebel against any tyranny surpassing that of King George III with reasonable chance of success. And if it were right in the eyes of God, then a reasonable chance of success could be gotten. But the reason it isn't gotten is because it isn't right to rebel. It seems to me that any who affirm rebellion, and yet fail to advocate for rebellion today, either are not aware or do not care about the present situation. Again, I would gladly change my viewpoint if someone could make a case for it. I don't want to believe this, but it seems like the obvious conclusion to draw from the facts.

from Romans 13

1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.... 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

 

[lifepsyop]

The founding of the United States was predicated by the Christian mindset, that began in Israel, but spread throughout Europe. In Western Europe, even atheists and anti-Christian minds were developed within the Judeo/Christian culture.

It spread to the US and the Enlightenment period, but even then, these things developed out of the Judeo/Christian culture.

based on your logic, you'd have to argue that today's popularization of atheistic materialism or transgender children also "developed out of a Judeo/Christian culture". So the argument doesn't really make sense...

It doesn't matter where people came from, but what spirit they are carrying with them. The main founders of the American nation, and the framers of the original documents, fully rejected the Biblical worldview and divinity of Jesus Christ, and fully embraced the pagan spirit of the Enlightenment, that only recognized the deistic/masonic 'god of reason'

Tell us of another form of government that existed which was better?

I guess it's a matter of perspective... A child still in its mother's womb was arguably much safer under a government before the United States.

If America had not been born on that July 4th, nations in Western Europe would've remained under the rule of Kings, Queens and tyrannical dictators. The United States was the first country on the history of the world, to have a government by the people and for the people,

and only several generations later the United States is openly hosting "Drag Kids" events with major corporate sponsorship.

I think it's a fair argument that most, if not all, of the original American revolutionaries would have run screaming back into the arms of Kings and Queens if they could have seen what a government "of the people" would morph into in the following centuries.

I wonder what they would think about today's presentation of excessive taxation and unaccountable government bureaucracy? How many Americans today do you think feel represented? What is the approval ratings of congress these days?

with the checks and balances to preserve it. It wasn't perfect, but it evolved to where we are today. Was it the result of God's will? I think it was or it would've failed.

It was God's will that nations like ancient Babylon be raised up in power as well. God allowed Egypt to reign in power over an enslaved Israel for a time. God raised up the original Canaanites in power for a time. God has clearly allowed America to reign in power for his purposes, but this does not mean He endorses the pagan philosophies that undergird it, any more than God endorsed the religious practices of Egypt or Babylon.

What would you replace it with if you detest this government so much?

I don't detest the American government, but the philosophy behind the Enlightenment and the following American revolution was completely anti-Christian. What bothers me is seeing Christians embrace the revolutionary spirit of 1776, not understanding that it is a revolution against God that continues to this day in its exaltation of the will of a fallen humanity.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't detest the American government, but the philosophy behind the Enlightenment and the following American revolution was completely anti-Christian. What bothers me is seeing Christians embrace the revolutionary spirit of 1776, not understanding that it is a revolution against God that continues to this day in its exaltation of the will of a fallen humanity.

For my part, I empathize with some of your misgivings about the historical state of affairs in our country, but I think your language is a little hyperbolic when you use qualifiers like "completely anti-Christian."

I'm not refuting you. There is an amount of truth in some of the aspects you've brought up in this thread, BUT at the same time there's a lot more to the ideological amalgamation that made up the thinking of the Revolutionaries and Founding Fathers that has led to our modern ideological climate. Some of their thinking was born out of practical political foresight; and some of it has been born out of philosophical and social disagreements that existed between various factions living at the time of the Revolution. The elites were affected, obviously, by the Enlightment. I'm not sure we can say this was the case with the masses of the non-elite common people, although on the industrial side of things, they definitely benefited. Many Americans (from colonial times) have been Christian. But then again, if they have been, they've been Christians who have vied with and judged their fellow Christians in other colonies (i.e. of other denominations). And a number of them owned slaves due to faulty interpretive applications of the Bible.

Anyway, on these kinds of topics I prefer to talk about historical research from many various angles, research that exists for us all to consider rather than just plastering [my] limited two-cents in a post and based on some singular source I've read. The U.S. is an ideological amalgamation of [diverse] Enlightenment ideals, Christian influence, and practical innovation and resolve to build a nation that would avoid some of the political pitfalls that historical befell the European nations (i.e. as seen in the European religious wars). In some ways, our Founding Fathers succeeded in their preventative endeavor to bring diverse colonies into Union and out of tragic infighting, and in some ways as it turned out, they failed (as seen in our own Civil War). But I suppose this is to be expected since politics is never clean or perfect.

In all of this, I agree with you that we should be mindful of the complexities that have made up the historical development of our nation and we should all be willing to evaluate our ideological surroundings today. I think everyone here, and you obviously, have some good points for us to consider, but in this we need to realize that our form of U.S. political ideology, especially as it was developed at its founding, is and has been a mixture of ideas and forces, some of which are not friendly to the Christian faith. But in knowing this, it would be beneficial if we address this issue with language which fits the problem and is articulated with intelligence, salted with the benefit of the doubt, and strongly in proportion to the evidence we actually find in having done more expansive research and thoughtful evaluation.

... ... And the rest of what I'd say in this post would probably just reiterate much of what @Suggestion Box has said above in his post (#48). That is a reasonable post!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

based on your logic, you'd have to argue that today's popularization of atheistic materialism or transgender children also "developed out of a Judeo/Christian culture". So the argument doesn't really make sense...

That's not my logic, but yours. Christianity has been under attack for the past 40 years and our society today embraces paganism and immorality more than Judeo/Christian moral values. That doesn't mean the country was originally founded on Judeo/Christian beliefs, which was part of Western culture. Christianity was very much part of Western Culture for at least 1500 years before the new world was even discovered. There is no other nation on earth that was built on the values that the United States was founded on.

It doesn't matter where people came from, but what spirit they are carrying with them. The main founders of the American nation, and the framers of the original documents, fully rejected the Biblical worldview and divinity of Jesus Christ, and fully embraced the pagan spirit of the Enlightenment, that only recognized the deistic/masonic 'god of reason'

No, they didn't reject the Bible as you say, as their writings often quote verses from the Bible. They didn't all reject the Divinity of Jesus. Many were Christians and one signer of the Declaration of Independence was Catholic. The deists merely did not accept Jesus as divine, but didn't reject him either.

I guess it's a matter of perspective... A child still in its mother's womb was arguably much safer under a government before the United States.

We're talking about the environment that child is born into. He could've been born into a tribe of headhunters and cannibals. That's child's life would be far worse than being born in the United States.

and only several generations later the United States is openly hosting "Drag Kids" events with major corporate sponsorship.

True, but has nothing to do with how Western culture developed over the centuries.

I think it's a fair argument that most, if not all, of the original American revolutionaries would have run screaming back into the arms of Kings and Queens if they could have seen what a government "of the people" would morph into in the following centuries.

That's speculation. The Kings and Queens of the nations in the 18th century were far worse than what we see today. If they had to live under them verses our current government, they would gladly embrace the current. The American military enlistment skyrocketed on September 12, 2001. Americans will still defend this nation despite the problems we have.

I wonder what they would think about today's presentation of excessive taxation and unaccountable government bureaucracy? How many Americans today do you think feel represented? What is the approval ratings of congress these days?

They'd be appalled that we let it get this way. The solution is for Americans to return to the moral values that God gave us. Giving up is not an option.

It was God's will that nations like ancient Babylon be raised up in power as well. God allowed Egypt to reign in power over an enslaved Israel for a time. God raised up the original Canaanites in power for a time. God has clearly allowed America to reign in power for his purposes, but this does not mean He endorses the pagan philosophies that undergird it, any more than God endorsed the religious practices of Egypt or Babylon.

God punished the Israelites for not obeying his commandments. He'll do the same today. However, God also wills the good and the founding of the United States, despite the problems was a good and I believe willed by God.

I don't detest the American government, but the philosophy behind the Enlightenment and the following American revolution was completely anti-Christian. What bothers me is seeing Christians embrace the revolutionary spirit of 1776, not understanding that it is a revolution against God that continues to this day in its exaltation of the will of a fallen humanity.

You'd be wrong. However, don't take it from me, an American, but from a person from outside like, Vishal Mangalwadi who studied the differences of the West compared to everywhere else in the world especially India, where he was born and raised. Read his book, "The Book that Made Your World: How the Bible Created the Soul of Western Civilization."

 

[Fantine]

There were the Puritans in New England and the Cavaliers in Virginia, bringing the Anglican faith to the USA.

And the Virginians drafted the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution with Jefferson as the scribe.

Puritans were the precursors of evangelism--the Cavaliers of mainstream Protestantism, which is far more progressive and open today.

So if evangelicals believe in America as a "fundamentalist" nation, I don't see it at all.

And I believe that's a good thing.

 

[lifepsyop]

The deists merely did not accept Jesus as divine, but didn't reject him either.

This is a troubling statement. I am reminded of the "Liar, Legend, Lunatic, or Lord" argument by CS Lewis... If Jesus wasn't who he said he was, then he was off his rocker. Separating Jesus from his divinity is worse than ignoring him completely. Jesus is either the risen Lord or else Christianity is complete nonsense.

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. - 1 Corinthians 17-19

This is what makes Deism (or Gnosticism) so dangerous, and this is reflected in the duplicitous language of the Deist American founders. They appear to have respect for the morality of the Bible and Christianity, and this makes Christians drop their guard, but when you boil it all down, those Deists completely reject the cornerstone of the faith.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

This is a troubling statement. I am reminded of the "Liar, Legend, Lunatic, or Lord" argument by CS Lewis... If Jesus wasn't who he said he was, then he was off his rocker. Separating Jesus from his divinity is worse than ignoring him completely. Jesus is either the risen Lord or else Christianity is complete nonsense.

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. - 1 Corinthians 17-19

This is what makes Deism (or Gnosticism) so dangerous, and this is reflected in the duplicitous language of the Deist American founders. They appear to have respect for the morality of the Bible and Christianity, and this makes Christians drop their guard, but when you boil it all down, those Deists completely reject the cornerstone of the faith.

Their rational at that time was that the gospels were written by men who never knew Jesus and for them lacked credibility. They also saw the harms that religious fanatics caused to other people over European centuries.

Faith doesn't come from merely reading the Gospels, but the revelation and experience of Jesus in the life of the person. Not everyone experiences this,
and the reason why some do and others don't, is a mystery and can only be
judge by God himself.

 

[Suggestion Box]

The Kings and Queens of the nations in the 18th century were far worse than what we see today. If they had to live under them verses our current government, they would gladly embrace the current.

I'm not sure of the numbers, but I find it hard to believe that 18th century monarchs were nearly as tyrannical as modern democracies. This is because I believe that if a government endorses, enforces, and funds the extermination of millions of smaller, weaker humans, then that government is guilty of extreme tyranny. I don't think the monarchs were dealing quite that much death. Do you think they were?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I'm not sure of the numbers, but I find it hard to believe that 18th century monarchs were nearly as tyrannical as modern democracies. This is because I believe that if a government endorses, enforces, and funds the extermination of millions of smaller, weaker humans, then that government is guilty of extreme tyranny. I don't think the monarchs were dealing quite that much death. Do you think they were?

Monarchs were opposed to democracies in the 18th century.
Democracies are not tyrannical as you believe. I'm not sure
where you got this nonsense?

 

[lismore]

There has never been a truly Christian nation...
There's no competition to Christ. He alone is the Savior. No nation can save us, but God will save us.

Agreed. Jesus said his Kingdom was not of this world (John 18:36). Therefore there cannot be a 'Christian Nation'. God Bless

 

[Mingo Bible Believer]

The influence of the European Enlightenment and Deism is pervasive in government and religion in America. That is undeniable. But the colonial heritage is even older and also has its influence. The colonialist unholy trinity of racism, violence, and exploitation is still operative. The concept of Manifest Destiny still rules, though rarely mentioned. Fortunately, we may all recall at any moment the Golden Rule.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The influence of the European Enlightenment and Deism is pervasive in government and religion in America. That is undeniable. But the colonial heritage is even older and also has its influence. The colonialist unholy trinity of racism, violence, and exploitation is still operative. The concept of Manifest Destiny still rules, though rarely mentioned. Fortunately, we may all recall at any moment the Golden Rule.

Nonsense!

Racism is a term thrown around by those who have no clue.
Manifest Destiny is a term I haven't heard for a while, but it
too is of the past and not the present.

The only racists are those who focus on race like Hitler did and the KKK do.

 

[Mingo Bible Believer]

Nonsense!

Racism is a term thrown around by those who have no clue.
Manifest Destiny is a term I haven't heard for a while, but it
too is of the past and not the present.

The only racists are those who focus on race like Hitler did and the KKK do.

True, race does not exist, but racism, that is, treating people differently based on perceived race, certainly does exist, and it exists in the church. Denial of that is only made by those who have no clue, having fortunately never suffered from it and being devoid of empathy.
Manifest Destiny is the doctrine that the settlers on the American continent after 1492 have a divine mandate to replace the earlier inhabitants, their lifeways, and their languages. It is largely a thing of the past, as you say. Many laws and policies against Native Americans disappeared after the mid-20th century, largely because they were no longer functional, having succeeded in destroying some of the most valuable of human treasures on earth. Most of what churches have done in the past and are doing today in regard to Native Americans, and especially their languages, supports the on-going momentum of Manifest Destiny.
The vehemence of your response is evidence enough of the fact that Manifest Destiny is still a guiding principle of American life.

Nonsense!

Racism is a term thrown around by those who have no clue.
Manifest Destiny is a term I haven't heard for a while, but it
too is of the past and not the present.

The only racists are those who focus on race like Hitler did and the KKK do.