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mikkyo

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When you begin quoting things in context, then and only then can you presume to teach me about scripture. The verse you quote 1. refers to JEWS

Both the Quran and Bible advocate violence for the purpose of conquering land. To be honest with you, I see no difference between the bible and the quran, no difference between Allah and Jehovah, and no difference between Jews and Muslims. In fact, both groups fit the description of the Amalekites. It is quite obvious your god is pitting Jews and Muslims against each other. That is why you all are suppose to fear him.

Again, there is only ONE, exactly one, precicely one instance in which G-d directs the Jews to wipe out an entire people, and this was regarding the Amalekites. For those reading along, here is the entire quote, giving context:

What about this verse:

Deut 2:31-34, “And Jehovah said unto me, Behold, I have begun to deliver up Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Jahaz. 33And Jehovah our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every inhabited city, with the women and the little ones; we left none remaining:
Seriously, how can you be in such denial?

 
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mikkyo

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If you are going to do Bible interpretation you need to learn how to do it properly. First of all, you have to put the verses in the contest of their historical circumstance and also in the context of what they say.

And do you also believe Muslims when they use the same pretext to justify murder in the name of religion? I would not think so.

He didn't even say it was a commandment from God. He said it was a vision. It was hyperbole given to make a point.

But your god had the reputation of ordering the Jews to murder. It clearly says so.

Deut 2:31-34, “And Jehovah said unto me, Behold, I have begun to deliver up Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, unto battle at Jahaz. 33And Jehovah our God delivered him up before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed every inhabited city, with the women and the little ones; we left none remaining:

You cannot tell me this is a vision.
 
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mikkyo

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This conflict will be the same. It's only a matter of how long we want to drag it out and how many true innocents we are willing to sacrifice to give us the illusion of a clean concience.

As long as the murder rate never exceeds the number of innocent civilians who died in Iraq, then why should America or the UN care? You all just don't get how evil the world has become, but instead everyone waste time pointing fingers at each other.
 
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Secundulus

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That doesn't say God ordered them to kill anyone. It says that Sihon attacked them as they attempted to pass and that with God's help they were victorious in battle.
 
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GeratTzedek

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Mikkyo:

Lets quote then entire chapter you reference and read it while considering your two statements: that G-d had a habit of asking the Jews to "murder" people, and that this secondly was a way to get land. Everyone will now see for themselves that in this one chapter Israel comes into contact with FOUR peoples. Three of them HaShem specifically states they are not to engage them or encroach upon their land. That means that if we extrapolate from the chapter you quote, 75% of the time HaShem says, "Leave other people alone."

And the 1 out of 4 which Israel did engage? Joshua initially asks only for peaceful passage through the land. When King Sihon REFUSES them safe passage and ATTACKS Israel instead, THAT is when Israel follows HaShem's instruction to conquer.

Gee, that sounds nothing like what you decribed. It is apparent to me that you decided in advance that Israel's G-d is some kind of bloodthirsty deity, and then went looking for quotes to prove your prejudice. Sorry. the passage speaks for itself.

 
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mikkyo

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That doesn't say God ordered them to kill anyone. It says that Sihon attacked them as they attempted to pass and that with God's help they were victorious in battle.

So are you saying the Jews made a mistake when they killed the women and innocent children? Would you have done the same thing if you were a Jew living in that time?
 
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mikkyo

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Mikkyo:

Lets quote then entire chapter you reference and read it while considering your two statements: that G-d had a habit of asking the Jews to "murder" people, and that this secondly was a way to get land. Here is Deuteronomy chapter 2:

How about you explain the entire chapter, then we shall see.
 
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Secundulus

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As long as the murder rate never exceeds the number of innocent civilians who died in Iraq, then why should America or the UN care? You all just don't get how evil the world has become, but instead everyone waste time pointing fingers at each other.
What is your suggested solution?

And get off your moral pedestal. The majority of innocent civilians killed in Iraq are those killed by the brave Muslim Shaheeds who buy their way into Allah's paradise by killing Muslim women and children. We would have left four years ago if Muslims from all over the world had not come to kill their brothers and sisters.
 
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GeratTzedek

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That doesn't say God ordered them to kill anyone. It says that Sihon attacked them as they attempted to pass and that with God's help they were victorious in battle.
Yeah, you would think this would be obvious. But people have a tendency to see what they WANT to see, even when the text says otherwise.
 
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Secundulus

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So are you saying the Jews made a mistake when they killed the women and innocent children? Would you have done the same thing if you were a Jew living in that time?
I am saying that by the standards of warfare at that time that it was not unusual. That was how wars were fought. If you read this entire thread you will see the examples I have provided.
 
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mikkyo

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What is your suggested solution?

Either one goes or the other. I only say this because there is no more solutions, and I have a feeling the Palestinians will one day be wiped out.


This has nothing to do with my moral pedestal. Maybe for once you should use your clairvoyance instead of relying on your bipartisan faith. Just think about it. Every effect can produce 1 effect, sometimes 2 or even 100 effects. Everyone uses the excuse, "he started it". Then people use this excuse, "well I will finish what he started". Both actions can easily produce myriad effects. And in the end you can point the finger this way, or that way, or even a thousand ways. Now instead of having one solution to the problem, you have to now create more solutions to the overall problem.

Was Iraq worth it? Ask yourself that question. In order to remove 1 dictator, civilians were sacrificed, military soilders killed, terrorists flocking to the war zone, trillions of dollars spent, political instability, creation of more jihadists and even sympathizers, and thousands of soilders suffering depression syndromes. Do you honestly believe the future generations will not inherit these problems. It will be ongoing and endless until the world finally ends.

Let me ask you this. If you were in George Bush's shoes, and you had a vision of the effects that we see today, would you still go into Iraq? Therefore, you ask me what the solution is. But George Bush's original solution to oust Saddam has now demanded more solutions to fix the problem. I will then tell you, the only solution is to do nothing. Leave it be.
 
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mikkyo

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I am saying that by the standards of warfare at that time that it was not unusual. That was how wars were fought. If you read this entire thread you will see the examples I have provided.

So according to today's standards is it wrong? And if you were a Jew, would you have murdered women and children?
 
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GeratTzedek

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Such a question is out of order. Monday night quarter backing is cheap. George Bush AND THE ENTIRE WORLD believed that Saddam has WMD. Saddam had violated the terms of surrender from the earlier gulf war. These are th things the invasion was based upon because that is what was known then. Any arguments made for or against the invasion of Iraq must be predicated on these two facts of that time.
 
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mikkyo

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Gee, that sounds nothing like what you decribed. It is apparent to me that you decided in advance that Israel's G-d is some kind of bloodthirsty deity, and then went looking for quotes to prove your prejudice. Sorry. the passage speaks for itself.

So if you were a Jew living during that time, would you have killed the women and slay innocent children?

Also, your god did not order the Jews to only wipe out the Amalkelites. In general, he said kill infidels and even the towns they lived in.

Deut 13:13-15 says, “13Certain base fellows are gone out from the midst of thee, and have drawn away the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in the midst of thee, 15thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.”[/font]
 
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GeratTzedek

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So according to today's standards is it wrong? And if you were a Jew, would you have murdered women and children?
Well, that is the question. That is why i opened this thread. Let's say that going on the assumption G-d actually did command it, I would hope that I would obey even if I didn't understand. But I don't know what I would have done. In addition, it is confusing to me how much of this mandate applies to all of today's "Amalekites." I had hope to have a more well rounded discussion, but this IS passover week after all, and most of the Jews here are Orthodox, and VERY involved in things at their synagogues and in their homes.
 
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mikkyo

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George Bush AND THE ENTIRE WORLD believed that Saddam has WMD.

The UN inspectors told US Saddam did not have WMD, and they refused to believe it. The following video speaks for itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=803apgVhMDQ


You say your god is all-knowing, correct? Ok then, would you believe George Bush was under divine guidance when choosing to go to war with Iraq?
 
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GeratTzedek

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Also, your god did not order the Jews to only wipe out the Amalkelites. In general, he said kill infidels and even the towns they lived in.
Strike three. You quote yet again another passage which refers to JEWS, and then tell us it is about gentile peoples. I showed you with the chapter you yourself quoted that generally speaking, G-d instructed Israel to not bother the other peoples. You can insist to the contrary all you want and spout your bigotry and prejudice til the cows come home. Scripture speaks for itself.

Strike three means, btw, that you are too irrational for me to continue conversing with. I am a teacher. I teach others how to read for comprehension and to respond. You get an F.
 
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mikkyo

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But this is no different than Islamic fundamentalists justifying their cause. In today's world, you have to be very mindful in how you use violence even when using self-defense. Honestly, this is not a joke anymore. Nuclear warheads can easily be unleashed. That saying still resonates in peoples'minds, "he started it, so I will finish it".
 
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CaDan

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Not me. And probably not Gump Worsley.

But that is quite far afield, I'm afraid.
 
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