Amalek

[GeratTzedek]

And how is this worse than Israelis who killed women, children, and elderly during times of war? It is common sense.

Israel does not TARGET those people for death, even during a declared war. Israel targets combatants for death.

Again, its the old broken moral compass that says someone who does something intentionally is no worse than the person who means not to, who would rather not.

Ezekial 9:5-7, “And to the others he said in my hearing, Go ye through the city after him, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity; 6slay utterly the old man, the young man and the virgin, and little children and women; but come not near any man upon whom is the mark: and begin at my sanctuary.”

When you begin quoting things in context, then and only then can you presume to teach me about scripture. The verse you quote 1. refers to JEWS and 2. is NOT advocating the death of every person in the city, much less the genocide of an entire people. Again, there is only ONE, exactly one, precicely one instance in which G-d directs the Jews to wipe out an entire people, and this was regarding the Amalekites. For those reading along, here is the entire quote, giving context:

3 Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the LORD called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, "Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it."
5 As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple.
7 Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city. 8 While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, "Ah, Sovereign LORD! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?" 9 He answered me, "The sin of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great; the land is full of bloodshed and the city is full of injustice. They say, 'The LORD has forsaken the land; the LORD does not see.' 10 So I will not look on them with pity or spare them, but I will bring down on their own heads what they have done."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm pretty sure that Amalek is located in the minds of paranoid individuals these days.

Shalom. I was trying to study on the Nations YHWH told the Hebrew Israelites they would conquer in relation to the 7 churches in the GNT of Revelation and wonder if these were actual nations or perhaps more symbolic of the NATURE of them.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Revelation/rev50.htm

What are some of these nations the Lord has promised to deliver into our hands as we enter in to possess our spiritual land of promise?
Let us look at these seven nations!

http://www.scripture4all.org/
Hebrew/Greek interlinear

Gene 15:19 the Kenite/Qeyniy, and the Kenizzite/Q@nizziy, and the Kadmonite/Qadmoniy; 20 and the Hittite/Chittiy and the Perizzite/P@rizziy, and the Rephaim/rapha'; 21 and the Amorite/'Emoriy, and the Canaanite/K@na`aniy, and the Girgashite/Girgashiy, and the Jebusite/Y@buwciy.

Deuteronomy 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites;

Joshua 3:10 And Joshua is saying, in this ye shall know that El living in within of ye, and to evict He shall evict from thine faces the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.

Joshua 24:11 And ye are crossing Jordan/Yarden, and coming unto Jericho/Y@riychow, and possessors of Jericho/Y@riychow are fighting in ye, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Girgashites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; and I deliver them into thine hand.

Nehemiah 9:8 And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

Ezra 9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.

 

[Ramona]

LLOJ, you never fail to provide NCR with awesomeness.

~Hallie

 

[GeratTzedek]

Back in the days when the USA still won wars we remembered that lesson.

It tells me that I can't increase your reputation again until I've spread my repping around.

 

[Secundulus]

Are you sure this the only instance? I can give you a handful of instances, but I will start with this one:

Ezekial 9:5-7, “And to the others he said in my hearing, Go ye through the city after him, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity; 6slay utterly the old man, the young man and the virgin, and little children and women; but come not near any man upon whom is the mark: and begin at my sanctuary.”

If you need me to teach you your bible, then just ask.

If you are going to do Bible interpretation you need to learn how to do it properly. First of all, you have to put the verses in the contest of their historical circumstance and also in the context of what they say.

Ezekiel was a Prophet. A prophet in the Old Testament may be understood to mean preacher. What you see in Ezekiel is essentially a sermon delivered to the Jews telling them to repent and telling them that their misfortune with the Babylonians is due to their disloyalty to God. It is nothing more than an especially graphic Hell and Brimfire sermon.

It cannot be understood to be a commandment from God to do those things. He didn't even say it was a commandment from God. He said it was a vision. It was hyperbole given to make a point.

 

[uberd00b]

Thanks CaDan. I have no problem with those who might gripe about Israel's policies, so long as they acknowledge the restraint shown, and do not put Israel's actions on par with terrorism. Isn't there ALWAYS room for improvement? And there is nothing wrong with discussing alternative ideas for accomplishing the same goal.

In an effort to keep things in perspective, you are aware that there were Jewish terrorists in Palestine before the Palestinians started doing it right?

Also these guys.

 

[GeratTzedek]

uber: the definition of terrorism was less strict back then. a group could engage in simple vandalism and it was considered terrorism if it worked for a political goal. By this definition, we would have to call many environmental groups "terrorists." But we don't. We have tightened the definition. For a group to qualify as being terrorist, they have to TARGET INNOCENTS.

Israeli groups have not done that. They targeted property, etc., i.e. the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 was intended to destroy property but not to take lives. That's why they phoned ahead to say that the bombing was going to take place. Sadly, the British didn't take it seriously and people did die. But not because they were targeted -- they died because the Brits didn't believe the warning.

Imagine the change in the middle east of Hamas would simply call in advance... "Hey we are going to bomb Pizza Parlor X, or blow up this bus, or explode that daycare..." But Hamas does not do this because THEIR goal IS to kill innocents.

 

[Secundulus]

In an effort to keep things in perspective, you are aware that there were Jewish terrorists in Palestine before the Palestinians started doing it right?

Also these guys.

The Palestinians were massacring Jews long before the Jews themselves began to fight back, even if their means were unsavory.

In 1929 the Palestinians massacred 133 Jews and wounded 300 others at the Command of the Mufti of Jerusalem who said, "Slaughter the Jews."
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1929.php

The cause -- The Jews committed the unpardonable offense of praying at the Western Wall.

Israel was not a country. Nobody's land had been allegedly taken.

It will be interesting listening to the weak excuses of the Palestinian apologists over this.

 

[uberd00b]

Neither side is innocent in this conflict.

Deir Yassin Massacre.

Irgun members continued to defend settlements, but at the same time began counter-attacks, thus ending the policy of restraint. These attacks were intended to instill fear in the Arab side, in order to cause the Arabs to wish for peace and quiet. In March 1938, David Raziel wrote in the underground newspaper "By the Sword" a constitutive article for the Irgun overall, in which he coined the term "Active Defense":
The actions of the Haganah alone will never be a true victory. If the goal of the war is to break the will of the enemy - and this cannot be attained without destroying his spirit - clearly we cannot be satisfied with solely defensive operations... Such a method of defense, that allows the enemy to attack at will, to reorganize and attack again... and does not intend to remove the enemy's ability to attack a second time - is called passive defense, and ends in downfall and destruction... whoever does not wish to be beaten has no choice but to attack. The fighting side, that does not intend to oppress but to save its liberty and honor, he too has only one way available - the way of attack. Defensiveness by way of offensiveness, in order to deprive the enemy the option of attacking, is called active defense. The first operations began around April 1936, and by the end of World War II, more than 250 Arabs had been killed. The trend of activities was an attempt to respond "an eye for an eye" in the form of violent operations against Arab violence, and often to match the form of retaliation or its location to correspond to the attack that provoked it. A number of examples:

• After an Arab shooting at Carmel school in Tel Aviv, which resulted in the death of a Jewish child, Irgun members attacked an Arab neighborhood near Kerem Hatemanim in Tel Aviv, killing one Arab man and injuring another.
• On August 17, the Irgun responded to shootings by Arabs from the Jaffa-Jerusalem train towards Jews that were waiting by the train block on Herzl Street in Tel Aviv. The same day, when a Jewish child was injured by the shooting, Irgun members attacked a train on the same route, killing one Arab and injuring five.

Innocent people are still dying today under Israeli aggression, please don't try and paint them as the innocents in all this.

(No I don't excuse the Palestinians either)

 

[Secundulus]

The actions of the Haganah alone will never be a true victory. If the goal of the war is to break the will of the enemy - and this cannot be attained without destroying his spirit - clearly we cannot be satisfied with solely defensive operations... Such a method of defense, that allows the enemy to attack at will, to reorganize and attack again... and does not intend to remove the enemy's ability to attack a second time - is called passive defense, and ends in downfall and destruction... whoever does not wish to be beaten has no choice but to attack.

This quote simply shows that the guy was a wise military leader. It doesn't say anything essentially different than our Military Doctrine today. You cannot prevail by fighting defensively.


"War is cruelty. There is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is, the sooner it will be over"
- Union General William T. Sherman said this shortly before beginning his brutal March to the Sea

"Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can, and strike him as hard as you can. And keep moving on!"
- Ulysses S. Grant's philosophy of war

"Never stand and take a charge...charge them too." - General Nathan Bedford Forrest, CSA

 

[Secundulus]

Please don't try and paint them as the innocents in all this.

I don't paint anyone as innocent. Innocence is the first casualty of war.

There are no innocents. There are only those who win and those who lose.

This conflict will be the same. It's only a matter of how long we want to drag it out and how many true innocents we are willing to sacrifice to give us the illusion of a clean concience.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't paint anyone as innocent. Innocence is the first casualty of war.

There are no innocents. There are only those who win and those who lose.

This conflict will be the same. It's only a matter of how long we want to drag it out and how many true innocents we are willing to sacrifice to give us the illusion of a clean concience.

I just pray this isn't all in the name of Religion.

 

[Secundulus]

I just pray this isn't all in the name of Religion.

Of course it is. The sooner people accept this fact the sooner they will realize that diplomacy has run its course. Its time to move on.

 

[CaDan]

Of course it is. The sooner people accept this fact the sooner they will realize that diplomacy has run its course. Its time to move on.

You seemed to have despaired of any solution but death. Please don't.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Of course it is. The sooner people accept this fact the sooner they will realize that diplomacy has run its course. Its time to move on.

I am sure the innocents would also appreciate anything that can be done.

Isaiah 60:1 Arise!, shine!; that your light came, and glory of YHWH on you He radiates.
2 For behold!, the darkness is covering land, and gross-darkness peoples; and over you YHWH is being radiant, and His glory over you is appearing.
3 And Nations go to Thy Light, and Kings to brightness of thy rising/radiance.

Matt 4:16 The people, the one-sitting in darkness perceived a Light, great.
And/also to-the ones-sitting in part and shadow of death, a Light springs-up to-them.

 

[Secundulus]

You seemed to have despaired of any solution but death. Please don't.

There is no longer any room for hope when the Government we enabled is preaching Holy War on Israel and Holy War on us on public television to the Palestinians.
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1739.htm

Instead of confronting this, our inept Government facilitates it by helping Hamas to be a legally elected government.

Instead of confronting this, we encourage it by legitimizing them with the visits and attention of former Presidents.

War is not only inevitable, it has already begun and is upon us. Closing our eyes and pretending it doesn't exist will not end it sooner.

In the meantime, true innocents on both sides continue to die so that we can feel morally superior.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

There is no longer any room for hope when the Government we enabled is preaching Holy War on Israel and Holy War on us on public television to the Palestinians.

Do they realize they are Biblical "Brothers". Religion should have absolutely nothing to do with any wars or conflicts in my humble view.

Ezekiel 38:21 "And I call on him, to all of mountains of Me, a Sword, declaration of Lord of me, YHWH".
"Sword of man in brother of him"
.
Matthew 10:34 "No you should be inferring that I came to be casting Peace upon the land. Not I came to be casting Peace, but a Sword /macairan <3162>";

 

[Secundulus]

Do they realize they are Biblical "Brothers". Religion should have absolutely nothing to do with any wars or conflicts in my humble view.

Ezekiel 38:21 "And I call on him, to all of mountains of Me, a Sword, declaration of Lord of me, YHWH".
"Sword of man in brother of him"
.
Matthew 10:34 "No you should be inferring that I came to be casting Peace upon the land. Not I came to be casting Peace, but a Sword /macairan <3162>";

If you want to speak in Biblical terms then the Sons of the inheritance cannot be at peace with their brothers who seek to usurp the inheritance. (I am not talking simply about the land)

But lest I be accused of being a fundamentalist, I don't need religion to be on the side of Israel.

Israel is our ally and we share common interests. The Palestinians danced in the streets in celebration of 9-11 and members of their Parlement publicly declare that they will conquer us. We share a common cultural heritage with Israel. Islam is opposed to Western values.

Islam is the source of the philosophy of dar al-Islam and dar al-Haarb. That is not the idea of either the West or Israel.

 

[uberd00b]

There is no longer any room for hope when the Government we enabled is preaching Holy War on Israel and Holy War on us on public television to the Palestinians.

Though religion is a major factor in the stubborness of the people there are others factors that drive them to fight. Israelis are sick of getting blown to smithereens while shopping and the Palestinians are sick of the grinding oppression the Israelis place them under.

There but for the grace of God go us.

You're right though that religion does kill almost all our hope for a peaceful solution. Some Israeli's actually believe they have a divine right to the land, as you didn't hint at there really. Which is a major problem.

Something I have just realised is that the religious are actually unable to tell right from wrong anymore. This is a dangerous situation.

Instead of confronting this, our inept Government facilitates it by helping Hamas to be a legally elected government.

Hamas were a legally elected government were they not? They're a reflection of the will of the people to fight back against the tyranny that the Israeli government visits on them.

Instead of confronting this, we encourage it by legitimizing them with the visits and attention of former Presidents.

Indeed we try to make peace. Something the Israeli's certainly don't want, but it's possible that Hamas could be persuaded.

War is not only inevitable, it has already begun and is upon us. Closing our eyes and pretending it doesn't exist will not end it sooner.

Do you think we should try to make peace?

 

[Secundulus]

Something I have just realised is that the religious are actually unable to tell right from wrong anymore. This is a dangerous situation.

I think you misuderstand. The religious have a very clear understanding of right and wrong. The problem is that the religions define right and wrong differently.

That is why we cannot deal with Hamas in good faith.

Hamas were a legally elected government were they not? They're a reflection of the will of the people to fight back against the tyranny that the Israeli government visits on them.

I agree that they are a reflection of the will of the people. Thay will not stop until the last Jew is erradicated from the face of the earth. This is what they have said. Do you want to be a part of that?

We find ouselves in the same situation as in 1938 where our enemy is clearly announcing his intention and we continue to refuse to believe him.

Do you think we should try to make peace?

There is a time for peace and a time for war. We have tried peace only to have been made into fools.