Am I too Simple Minded?

[farout]

I know what I believe about what the Bible says. I know what verse or verses or even chapters prove why I believe the things I do. I am a solid core conservative Bible believing Christian.

What I find frustrating is those who find fault in my believing the Bible from beginning to end, every word. I believe in it took a literal six days for God to do all of creation. Evolution for me is false, I stand with Ken Ham and his ministry Answers in Genesis and the proof that Creation is a valid belief.

The Trinity is a core teaching in Scripture. However when I state that I am belittled. I admit I am not a scholar. But I am willing to stand for the basic cores of Orthodox Christianity. I have been talked to as if I am so stupid to believe such things. I consider this Post Modernism when the core issues of the Christian faith are belittled or made out to be wrong.

If you are a conservative Christian and even a Baptist what are your thoughts.

 

[Hoghead1]

I hear you, Farout. However, I am sharing some points I feel it is important for you to consider. Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis are not at all solid scientific or apologetic authorities, in the fist place. Maybe you are impressed by them. That's understandable le. Many laity are. The problem is that those of us with a solid education in science and theology are not. Let's discuss Genesis. First of all, more than one major church father argued ide makes no sense to take it literally. I am sure Ham and other apologetic sites fail to mention that Augustine wrote a major work titled "Genesis in the Literal Sense," in which he argued it is nonsense to take Genesis literally. Actually, Genesis is not one account, but two separate contradictory ones written by different authors from different time periods. This conclusion is based upon a painstaking literary analysis of the text and is standard fare in modern biblical scholarship. It is seen as contradictory because it presents two conflicting chronologies. In Gen. 1, first animals, then man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. Granted, online apologists often appear to have explained all this away. However, to date, any attempt to fuse them together into one unified account have all failed. If you wish, I can go down through these attempts and show why in each case they fail. Just to give one example, a favorite tactic among online apologists is to argue that Gen. 2 is most properly translated in the pluperfect tense. Hence, the line should read, "So God had created the animals..." Putting everything in the pluperfect would refer everything back into 1 and solve the problem. Looks convincing to laity. Problem is, there is no pluperfect tense in Hebrew. Also, you need to more carefully check out the so-called scientific proofs for creationism. Often, they prove to be totally bogus. Just to give one example, more than one site cites the research of creation scientist Barry Setterfield. His argument is that science should wake up and face the fact that c (speed of light is not absolute), that in the beginning it was infinite and has been slowing down ever since. Many laity swallow this, especially as it appears to be based on the solid fact claimed that Setterfield discovered that if you looked at all the estimates of c given down through history, you would find estimates of c are continually getting slower. Looks impressive. Forget it. Actually looking at estimates f c given down through the ages indicates its estimates have been consistently getting faster. Anyhow, this is a bogus argument, to start with, as estimates gained by more primitive scientific instruments cannot be considered definite today.

 

[Goodbook]

I know what I believe about what the Bible says. I know what verse or verses or even chapters prove why I believe the things I do. I am a solid core conservative Bible believing Christian.

What I find frustrating is those who find fault in my believing the Bible from beginning to end, every word. I believe in it took a literal six days for God to do all of creation. Evolution for me is false, I stand with Ken Ham and his ministry Answers in Genesis and the proof that Creation is a valid belief.

The Trinity is a core teaching in Scripture. However when I state that I am belittled. I admit I am not a scholar. But I am willing to stand for the basic cores of Orthodox Christianity. I have been talked to as if I am so stupid to believe such things. I consider this Post Modernism when the core issues of the Christian faith are belittled or made out to be wrong.

If you are a conservative Christian and even a Baptist what are your thoughts.

Well, I wouldn't take any notice of scientists who belittle you or anyone who doesn't agree with their 'scientific findings'. That's just showing their ignorance of God and also their arrogance.

I don't, and it doesn't bother me..they can go argue in their little room by themselves without God if they think they above Him and know so much more. Persecution can come in mockery of God but as you know God isn't mocked. People belittled Jesus on the cross and it was the Pharisees, the sadducees and those scholarly and religious learned types as well. Jesus was there with God in the beginning. So I don't know what these science types wanna argue, that Jesus wasn't real or something. Well, there's an empty tomb they can't prove that he didn't rise from the grave did he? If people lack faith, and only believe in what they see right in front of them, well, ok but even Jesus said to doubting Thomas stick your fingers in my hands and feet and feel the scars.

And it's all written down and clear as day in scripture, so maybe just pray that these science types eyes are open to God's Word and that He reveals understanding and wisdom on spiritual matters.

 

[farout]

I hear you, Farout. However, I am sharing some points I feel it is important for you to consider. Ken Ham and Answers in Genesis are not at all solid scientific or apologetic authorities, in the fist place. Maybe you are impressed by them. That's understandable le. Many laity are. The problem is that those of us with a solid education in science and theology are not. Let's discuss Genesis. First of all, more than one major church father argued ide makes no sense to take it literally. I am sure Ham and other apologetic sites fail to mention that Augustine wrote a major work titled "Genesis in the Literal Sense," in which he argued it is nonsense to take Genesis literally. Actually, Genesis is not one account, but two separate contradictory ones written by different authors from different time periods. This conclusion is based upon a painstaking literary analysis of the text and is standard fare in modern biblical scholarship. It is seen as contradictory because it presents two conflicting chronologies. In Gen. 1, first animals, then man and woman together. In Gen. 2, first man, then animals, then woman. Granted, online apologists often appear to have explained all this away. However, to date, any attempt to fuse them together into one unified account have all failed. If you wish, I can go down through these attempts and show why in each case they fail. Just to give one example, a favorite tactic among online apologists is to argue that Gen. 2 is most properly translated in the pluperfect tense. Hence, the line should read, "So God had created the animals..." Putting everything in the pluperfect would refer everything back into 1 and solve the problem. Looks convincing to laity. Problem is, there is no pluperfect tense in Hebrew. Also, you need to more carefully check out the so-called scientific proofs for creationism. Often, they prove to be totally bogus. Just to give one example, more than one site cites the research of creation scientist Barry Setterfield. His argument is that science should wake up and face the fact that c (speed of light is not absolute), that in the beginning it was infinite and has been slowing down ever since. Many laity swallow this, especially as it appears to be based on the solid fact claimed that Setterfield discovered that if you looked at all the estimates of c given down through history, you would find estimates of c are continually getting slower. Looks impressive. Forget it. Actually looking at estimates f c given down through the ages indicates its estimates have been consistently getting faster. Anyhow, this is a bogus argument, to start with, as estimates gained by more primitive scientific instruments cannot be considered definite today.

I strongly believe you fall into the very category I was referring to. I think you fail to fully grasp that there a wide number of well educated people that back creationism. Unfortunately your lack of understanding that genesis 1 and 2 do in fact tell not two different accounts, but one is general in nature and the second is in depth.

I have no intention to debate this subject with you in anyway, except to say Higher Criticism most generally sets its goals to discredit literal understanding. If what you feel is your life mission is to attempt to prove a person can not take the WORD of Yahweh literally, then you won't make any progress with me. You are they very type of person I was wanting to avoid. Please its best to not dialogue with me about this any further.

 

[farout]

Well, I wouldn't take any notice of scientists who belittle you or anyone who doesn't agree with their 'scientific findings'. That's just showing their ignorance of God and also their arrogance.

I don't, and it doesn't bother me..they can go argue in their little room by themselves without God if they think they above Him and know so much more. Persecution can come in mockery of God but as you know God isn't mocked. People belittled Jesus on the cross and it was the Pharisees, the sadducees and those scholarly and religious learned types as well. Jesus was there with God in the beginning. So I don't know what these science types wanna argue, that Jesus wasn't real or something. Well, there's an empty tomb they can't prove that he didn't rise from the grave did he? If people lack faith, and only believe in what they see right in front of them, well, ok but even Jesus said to doubting Thomas stick your fingers in my hands and feet and feel the scars.

And it's all written down and clear as day in scripture, so maybe just pray that these science types eyes are open to God's Word and that He reveals understanding and wisdom on spiritual matters.

I totally agree with you. The very sad thing is in their wisdom they have become fools. There are a large number of scientific evidence that scholars have to disprove so many widely held beliefs that are not compatible with Biblical writings. These who oppose what Scripture says are not open to truth. Sadly worldly knowledge that is in opposition to Scripture seems to have a greater attraction for some who just can't or won't actually did deep for then self. It is so very much easier to go with the so called intelligence that is taught, then to investigate with due diligence and actually discover for them selves the truth. This takes lots of real hard evaluation which seldom do the highly educated have the desire to do.

The same is true for those who refuse to see that without a genuine born again experience and becoming a follower of Jesus there is no other way to GOD but by Jesus Christ.

 

[Job8]

If you are a conservative Christian and even a Baptist what are your thoughts.

A Christian who believes the Bible without any reservations whatsoever is NOT simple-minded but anchored in God's truth. Christians need to learn to simply ignore everything that passes for worldly knowledge (evolution, climate change, left-liberalism, socialism, feminism, etc) and stay focused on Divine revelation.

A literal six-day creation is absolutely true, Noah's Flood is absolutely true, the Deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity are absolutely true. Why? Because they are revealed to us by God the Holy Spirit.

You should always be mindful that Satan hates the Bible, hates Christ, and hates Christians. If he can get you to start believing his lies and abandoning Scripture, he has achieved his goal. At this time in history too many Christians are believing the lies and forsaking the truth.

 

[Hoghead1]

Again, I hear you, Farout. I understand your frustration. I believe much of it would go away if you allowed yourself to become more aware of the situation you are in. Many laity think of Christianity as a monolithic religion, just one way. However, that is far from the actual reality. Christianity represents a rich plurality of diverse beliefs. That may confuse some. But I like it. It means we have choice, freedom in Christianity. If one church doesn't work for you, you can choose another, one that does. Yu are coming out of the conservative right-wing branch of the church. Nothing wrong with that. However, you should recognize that not all Christians can be or should be on the right. While the right wing certainly does meet the needs of some, it does not meet the needs of everyone, it do not even begin to meet my spiritual, emotional, and intellectual needs. Hence, I moved way to the left. In addition, I think you reflect on the fact that you are coming out of the laity. Nothing wrong with that. Most persons are laity. Other Christians are coming out of academic, with a highly educated background in biblical studies, science, theology, etc. Nothing wrong with that, either. The problem is that when the two meet up, there is a huge town-gown gulf to be bridged. Lay persons, bless their hearts, often have very naïve ideas about what to expect from the world of scholarship. Hence, they are often shocked and frustrated by what they may here from the scholarly end of it. It seems like it's all a bunch of crazy, nutty professors. And that's understandable. The academic world of biblical scholarship is a completely different world from that of the laity, from your Sunday-school class, from your cherished beliefs, etc. It's rules are different, its values are different, and its priorities are very different. And that is good, believe me. The thing to do is get educated, don't sit and be frustrated. Try to find out more about why the scientists and academics may hold a very different position from your own. Writing them off as all godless, etc. is a total cop out that prevents you from having any real understanding or insight into the matters. For example, I'm pretty sure that in a previous email here, I outlined why I felt the Genesis account is deficient. Did you take the time to read and consider anything I said? Have you ever studied the scientific case for evolution? If you, how would you offer a rational rebuttal to their claims? I mention that, because all too often here, I find that the anti-evolutionary people have had little or no formal education in science. Bottom line: The more education you obtain, the lesser your frustration in encountering viewpoints contra to your own.

 

[Goodbook]

Actually the thing is..we are already educated.
Its the scientists who actually dont really know anything as they are constantly doing research to try and prove hypothesis. I have a scientist friend who tells me that all the research they are doing actually is not of much use. All the money is being poured into useless projects eg finding cures for cancer when we already know prevention is the best cure. God has already given us leaves for healing. God has already provided us with everything we need to live a long healthy life but...theres so much sin in the world today that it is hard to stay pure. It is not Gods fault, it is our sinful ways and the consequences of polluting our environment and ignoring God.

Plus all the unethical experiments they do...she has a lot of trouble reconciling that.

So you have to be careful about picking your battles. Some scientists are really closeminded about things that are not in their speciality. Some actually believe science is god. It isnt.

If you are not a scientists yourself dont try to argue with scientists or you are going to have to wade knee deep in literature reviews, methodology etc. theres so much flawed scientitific thinking out there its like a landmine. Also the process of peer review is not rigid as it appears. Theres favouritism and one upmanship in science too.

 

[Goodbook]

What you do is spread the gospel. If the scientists dont listen and put their science above God Himself then just shake the dust off your feet and move on.

We are not called to say whether or not there was billions of light years since the beginning or a billion and one. Just stick to the gospel, and if the scientists still wanna believe in silly evoltuonary theories then leave it up to God and His word to correct their misbelief. If they truly believe in Jesus then they will also believe what Moses said and all the prophets.

 

[Hoghead1]

So be it, Farout. Only thing I would suggest is that you ask yourself whether you feel you be in a serious discussion group, the purpose of which is to challenge one another. f you can't stand the heat, please leave the kitchen.

 

[Hoghead1]

I'm curious what kind of education you have ha din science, Goodbook. You speak of scientists and other scholarly people in a very derogative way. Having been both educated in science and theology, I find your comments totally off base. It sure seems that you are most intolerant of educated people who do not think the way you do. And you then are bund to have conflicts with educated people, because you simply do not have the knowledge base they do.

 

[Hoghead1]

Look, Job8, I realize you are coming from the far right of the church. Nothing wrong with that. However, you fail to take into consideration that while the right wing meets the needs of some, it doe not meet the needs of many others. It did not even begin to meet my emotional, spiritual, and intellectual needs. I fund it quite oppressive and stifling for me. I l and so was definitely not happy with its basically anti-intellectual foundation. I was not happy with the way it thrives on condemning to hell anyone, including fellow Christians, who deviate the slightest or question the slightest its dogmas. You need to recognize that not all Christians are or can be on the right. I moved way to the left because I wanted to be with fellow Christians who respect in others, rather than sitting in judgment on others, believing they had the power to say who is saved or damned. I also wanted to find a place where you can question dogmas and doctrines. I found many conservative doctrines to be purely human-made, to begin with, and way out of touch with reality, in addition to fostering nothing but intolerance, oppression, and ignorance. So I really find it offensive when you right-wingers come on with the holier-than-thou approach. I find it offensive the way you parade human-made theories about Scripture, nature, etc., which you unduly deify. I find it offensive the way you hold up a questionable doctrine and then try to escape out of the hot seat, by asking who are you to question God. Well, neither God or Scripture are in question here, your wacky ideas ideas about them are. I find it offensive the way you cast disparaging remarks on anyone who disagrees with you, rather than offering up a solid rational rebuttal.

 

[John Robie]

I know what I believe about what the Bible says. I know what verse or verses or even chapters prove why I believe the things I do. I am a solid core conservative Bible believing Christian.

What I find frustrating is those who find fault in my believing the Bible from beginning to end, every word. I believe in it took a literal six days for God to do all of creation. Evolution for me is false, I stand with Ken Ham and his ministry Answers in Genesis and the proof that Creation is a valid belief.

The Trinity is a core teaching in Scripture. However when I state that I am belittled. I admit I am not a scholar. But I am willing to stand for the basic cores of Orthodox Christianity. I have been talked to as if I am so stupid to believe such things. I consider this Post Modernism when the core issues of the Christian faith are belittled or made out to be wrong.

If you are a conservative Christian and even a Baptist what are your thoughts.

I find no fault. I believe Genesis and Exodus teach a literal six days. Jesus affirms the historical Adam and Eve, Noah, Jonah, etc. I'm not bothered by the detractors that are embarrassed by God's word. That's their problem, not mine.

 

[Emmy]

Dear farout. You are not too SimpleMinded, and here our Saviour gives us good advice. In Matthew 22: 35-40:
Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it, love thy neighbour as thyself: Do unto others as you would have others do to you.
Verse 40 tells us: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. That is straightforward and easy to understand. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told:
" ask and you will receive," then thank God and share all Love and Joy with your neighbour. Keep asking and receiving, then thank God and share all Love and Joy with all you know and all you meet, friends and not friends.
God will see our loving efforts and God will bless us.
The Bible tells us: " Repent and be Born Again," change from being selfish and unloving to Loving and Caring.
Love is very catching, and love will change all to the better. Gradually we will change from being selfish to be Loving and Caring. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY.
We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring. God will keep Blessing us, and we will gradually change into the men and women which God wants us to be.
I say this with love, farout. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[Goodbook]

I was watching this doco on national trust gardens and it mentioned Biddulph Grange and how the creator, James Bateman was a creationist and he had actually created a museum to show people what the first seven days of creation were like, with geological evidence.

Of course when you go into almost any natural history museum today, they will follow darwins ideas, and try and state about their billions of years theory that everything exploded and came from nothing and it was all rocks and atoms and we all mutated etc. But theres still a few that hold out and are radical and true to Gods word.

 

[miamited]

I know what I believe about what the Bible says. I know what verse or verses or even chapters prove why I believe the things I do. I am a solid core conservative Bible believing Christian.

What I find frustrating is those who find fault in my believing the Bible from beginning to end, every word. I believe in it took a literal six days for God to do all of creation. Evolution for me is false, I stand with Ken Ham and his ministry Answers in Genesis and the proof that Creation is a valid belief.

The Trinity is a core teaching in Scripture. However when I state that I am belittled. I admit I am not a scholar. But I am willing to stand for the basic cores of Orthodox Christianity. I have been talked to as if I am so stupid to believe such things. I consider this Post Modernism when the core issues of the Christian faith are belittled or made out to be wrong.

If you are a conservative Christian and even a Baptist what are your thoughts.

Hi farout,

Well, if it's of any value, I agree with you. I also am fairly simple minded in my faith and understanding of the Scriptures. However, I think that's exactly what Jesus was referring to when he told us that unless we become like little children we shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. I also believe that when Jesus warned us of being mocked and persecuted that these things are exactly what he was talking about.

Therefore, I expect to be mocked and persecuted for my simple-mindedness and accept it as a promise from my Lord. Sadly this comes nearly as much from within the fellowship of believers as from without. This is when I have to remind myself of Jesus' promise to the disciples about the day of his Father's judgment. "May will say to me, Lord, Lord. Did we not drive out demons in your name and in your name perform great miracles?" It seems painfully obvious to my simple mind that the people speaking to Jesus in this account were accounted on the earth as being christians.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT​

This thread had a small clean up. Please remember that the
Statement of Purpose Baptist Statement of Faith
includes this:​

• The 66 Books comprising the Scriptures are given by the verbal inspiration of God, and as such are the only and all sufficient, authoritative rule of faith. Given their divine origins, the Scriptures are without error as originally given.

That does not mean that there are not different understandings of what is written, but Baptists do believe scripture is God-inspired and a fallible book written by fallible men with worldly teaching. ​