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Well there is the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and similar, as well as universalism.I debated about posting this but I'm just curious,.. am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged? Or are there others on here as well? (Please don't try and get me to change my views because it isn't going to work and that's not what this thread is about.)
Well there is the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and similar, as well as universalism.
I'd be more interested in why you think that is the case.
Then you should wait till you can before presenting such a challenge. Its not fair to others if you can not justify your stand. Its like crying wolf with the body of Christ.Not sure how to,.. I always have to look up scripture and to know what I'm looking up. I don't have a lot memorized.
Not everyone who is an unbeliever hates God,.. they just don't believe in God. Doesn't mean that they hate Him. I bet if you polled many of the atheists on this board they would tell you the same thing.
Not everyone who is an unbeliever hates God,.. they just don't believe in God.
Agreed...we are merciful, but we cannot add to His Word to do so.It does look that way. I have to accept whatever God's truth is.
Thanks and yes - I try not to be a total monster myself over my faith - it happens though. I get all riled up and don’t mind a good fight (most Christians love a good controversy and scrap over scripture and application haha). Jesus is probably shaking his head at me haha.It's cool that you said this because for some people this statement is part of why people believe this way. My brother wrote his master's thesis on this subject. The hypotheses (or was it the theory? I get confused) in his essay went like this:
Does God have the ability to save everyone? Yes Does God desire that everyone be saved and be with him? Yes. Ipso facto God's will be done always.
So though there are many verses that say "the only way to the father is through the son" There are also verses like this one :
1 John 2:2"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." (NIV)
There are more verses with a similar message like:
Romans 11:32 "For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." (NIV)
From Wikipedia about a word that was mistranslated in the Latin Vulgate
Christian universalists point towards the mistranslations of the Greek word αιών (Lit. aion), as giving rise to the idea of Eternal Hell, and the idea that some people will not be saved.[14][25][26]
This Greek word is the origin of the modern English word aeon, which refers to a period of time or an epoch.
The 19th century theologian Marvin Vincent wrote about the word aion, and the supposed connotations of "eternal" or "temporal":
Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself. [...] Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting."
So based on this and there is more information like this. Another half a dozen Bible verses or so could lead anyone to the conclusion that God has the option of saving anyone if not everyone.
This topic really gets people fired up because in their mind they know for a fact only people like them can go to heaven. There are verses in the Bible that say they are correct in that thinking. It's probably the biggest contradiction in the Bible
But oh no! It's impossible for the Bible to contain contradictions. Well, there is are contradictions just above. Personally, I just let God figure all of that out and I try to do the right thing, putting my fate in God's hands where it belongs.
Does everybody have to have a reason to believe the way they do? Maybe it's just because they believe it.
No - you do not have to have reasons to believe as you see fit. It’s up to you. Generally speaking - you have to explain your reasoning if you’re trying to persuade others. (Which you aren’t) I dont think. (Admittedly I haven’t read the whole 7 pages of posts). I guess you call it the burden of proof is where it’s for you to explain your reasons if trying to persuade. You don’t have burden of proof if you’re just saying what you thinkDoes everybody have to have a reason to believe the way they do? Maybe it's just because they believe it.
Not everyone who is an unbeliever hates God,.. they just don't believe in God. Doesn't mean that they hate Him. I bet if you polled many of the atheists on this board they would tell you the same thing.
No - you do not have to have reasons to believe as you see fit. It’s up to you. Generally speaking - you have to explain your reasoning if you’re trying to persuade others. (Which you aren’t) I dont think. (Admittedly I haven’t read the whole 7 pages of posts). I guess you call it the burden of proof is where it’s for you to explain your reasons if trying to persuade. You don’t have burden of proof if you’re just saying what you think
Out of the love you have for Jesus - you may choose to try and form more nuanced beliefs. You might turn to biblical scholarship, theology, prayer to learn more. Over time - you can use your knowledge to help others struggling with their faith and the same questions you once had. Personally- I believe when I meet Jesus - I’ll find I was wrong about a lot of stuff. he can show me where I was mistaken. I can’t be sure I’ve got it right 100% - I hope he will have grace on me for those things.Also,.. doesn't the Muslim faith say that if you're not a Muslim you burn in Hell? Well I'm not worried about that because that's not what I believe. I'm not a Muslim. Seems like every religion has their own scare tactics and I don't believe God works like that. I came to Him because I love Him,.. not because I'm afraid that I'm going to burn in Hell if I don't.
Out of the love you have for Jesus - you may choose to try and form more nuanced beliefs. You might turn to biblical scholarship, theology, prayer to learn more. Over time - you can use your knowledge to help others struggling with their faith and the same questions you once had. Personally- I believe when I meet Jesus - I’ll find I was wrong about a lot of stuff. he can show me where I was mistaken. I can’t be sure I’ve got it right 100% - I hope he will have grace on me for those things.
Yes - a fact is for example - the bible records Jesus as having said “love your enemies”. The opinion bit is where you come to a conclusion as to what he meant by that. That is your opinion - since you can’t be sure your conclusion is about his statement is correct. You will have your reasons for your opinion, but, your opinion might be incorrect - most people are arguing over the opinion bit. That’s where they clash their reasons together and try to figure out who has the best reasoning. (Mostly - we all just disagree and argue though haha)I'm not sure I'm right either. I could be wrong. We all could be wrong and there's no God at all. I just go by what I believe in my heart as well as what the rest of us do and that's the only thing we can do since it's all based on faith and not by facts.
Yes - a fact is for example - the bible records Jesus as having said “love your enemies”. The opinion bit is where you come to a conclusion as to what he meant by that. That is your opinion - since you can’t be sure your conclusion is about his statement is correct. You will have your reasons for your opinion, but, your opinion might be incorrect - most people are arguing over the opinion bit. That’s where they clash their reasons together and try to figure out who has the best reasoning. (Mostly - we all just disagree and argue though haha)
I'm not sure I'm right either. I could be wrong. We all could be wrong and there's no God at all. I just go by what I believe in my heart as well as what the rest of us do and that's the only thing we can do since it's all based on faith and not by facts.
Allow me to disagree with the last sentence. I became a real Christian because of my studies and observations as a scientist, and now I can agree with Albert Einstein, Werner Heisenberg, Blaise Pascal, Max Planck, Isaac Newton, Johannes Kepler and many many other famous scientists whose experience you can summarize with the words of Heisenberg:
"The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you".
I've never been surer about God's existence than after studying natural sciences.
Haha That’s where nuance comes in. Notice I said “...the bible records Jesus ....”. I didn’t say Jesus said it. But good effort though.Wrong! Nothing Jesus said is fact,.. we can't prove that He said what He said in the Bible. Anything to do with Christianity is by faith not fact. It's a proven fact that Jesus lived and walked the earth, but it is not a fact that He was the Son of God because it can't be proven. It's all to do with belief.
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