Am I The Only One

Saint Steven said:

See post #292

I suggest you read the first chapter in this book (Catholic author) and come back with some REAL questions. Thanks.

Christ Triumphant, by Thomas Allin
Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

Click to expand...

Oops. I thought he was a Catholic author. Looks like he was an Anglican Priest. (C of E) My bad.

As I said no orthodox Christian believer whether Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox do not by into the absolute heresy of Universalism

That idea should make one think and understand that being non orthodox is not a great place to be.

RushMAN said:

As I said no orthodox Christian believer whether Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox do not by into the absolute heresy of Universalism

Click to expand...

Why are you afraid of heresy?
Jesus' teachings were unorthodox at the time.

When orthodoxy is threatened, the orthodox cry "heresy".
The label "heretic" is a child of the Dark Ages.
Back when they burned people for what they believed.
Such finger-pointing is from the same mentality.

RushMAN said:

That idea should make one think and understand that being non orthodox is not a great place to be.

Click to expand...

On the contrary. The orthodoxy of the day was against John the Baptist and Jesus.

Matthew 21:23-27
Jesus entered the temple courts, and, while he was teaching, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him. “By what authority are you doing these things?” they asked. “And who gave you this authority?”
24 Jesus replied, “I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things. 25 John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?”
They discussed it among themselves and said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ he will ask, ‘Then why didn’t you believe him?’ 26 But if we say, ‘Of human origin’—we are afraid of the people, for they all hold that John was a prophet.”
27 So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.”
Then he said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things. The people were amazed at his teaching, because he taught them as one who had authority, not as the teachers of the law.

Orthodox led to this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Medieval torments have a character peculiar to themselves "They represent a condition of thought, in which men had pondered long and carefully on all the forms of suffering; had combined, and compared, the different forms of torture, till they had become the most consummate masters of their art."- Lecky; Hist. of Ration. i. 330.

For if men believed that God would light up the gloomy fires of hell and keep them blazing to all eternity, it was an easy and a natural step, to set up in His name a little copy of His justice, and thus, as it were, to anticipate God's sentence. "As the souls of heretics are hereafter to be eternally burning in hell," such was the reasoning of Queen Mary in defense of her awful persecution, "there can be nothing more proper than for me to imitate the divine vengeance, by burning them here on earth."

Christ Triumphant, by Thomas Allin
Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

April_Rose said:

I debated about posting this but I'm just curious,.. am I the only Christian on here who believes that through the sacrifice of Christ unbelievers can still be saved after they're judged? Or are there others on here as well? (Please don't try and get me to change my views because it isn't going to work and that's not what this thread is about.)

Click to expand...

It has already happened once. Orthodoxy calls it the Harrowing of Hell.
Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?
(the realm of the dead) A term found 29 times in the NIV translation of the Bible.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Saint Steven said:

It has already happened once. Orthodoxy calls it the Harrowing of Hell.
Note: Christ was laid in an above ground tomb. Where is the heart of the earth?
(the realm of the dead) A term found 29 times in the NIV translation of the Bible.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

1 Peter 3:18-20
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he took many captives
and gave gifts to his people.”
9 (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also
descended to the lower, earthly regions?
10 He who descended is the very one who ascended
higher than all the heavens,
in order to fill the whole universe.)

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Click to expand...

@RushMAN, if you would like to read please do. You might find it insightful or reject. Either way, it's imperative at least to me in a true sense to be able to come to common grounds even if is just on the basis of love itself.

There is scriptures in 2nd Corinthians 5:10-21, that is good to look at. The first verse says we stand at the judgement seat of Christ and are judged based on what we did with our life, good or bad. Then it later mentions that because of the Lord Jesus Christ who died on the cross for the sin of the world, all people are dead. The only way people are raised back to new life is their belief, on God, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Who raises a person into a new life, and because we have a choice, we can either live in this new life or not. The judgement will be based on the choice of how we lived. Did we live in faith, and love others, or did we not live in faith, and hate others and never forgive them, even for their differences of opinions.

In my estimation that if we chose Jesus Christ we would be transformed into his light and his ways, that we would seek God in our lives, and try to even love our neighbors regardless of their distinguished beliefs.

It goes on to say, God reconciles the world unto himself. That to me says that God has saved all people from their sin in the world, through the blood shed of Christ Jesus, (1 John 2:2). So it seems to me, in my best estimation even though, I do not believe in the way of universalism anymore, yet that of total reconcilationism, that all people have been saved from their sin because of Jesus Christ.

It still leaves things up to God to decide by the judgement seat of Christ of what people have done with their life. We can find in John 5:29 about the two resurrections that are going to happen. One for the believer, and one for the unbeliever.

Now this is the confusion with universalism is that ALL are just going to go to heaven, but with no direct description of how this all plays out it's always seemingly convoluted in my opinion, though I respect my brothers who believe that way if that is what you desire so be it.

Referring back to the passage above about John 5:29 and the two resurrection we can see that believers, and unbelievers are both going to receive a spiritual body, (1 Corinthians 15 for more on that).

Now the most interesting thing about total reconcilationism, is that all of these people who pass away, whom are thus judged rightly by God, given a spiritual body that is pleasing to him, do not perish away (2 Peter 3:9), but all to come to knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:1-4).

Where do they all go?

All people go to God. They are either able to enter the kingdom of God due to their faith, and love towards other people. (Revelation 22) The Kingdom Of God or Heavenly Jerusalem is where God and his Lamb (Jesus) dwell, and those who are able to bear his light will be able to because it says there is no night or moon there, all the light emulates from God. Though there is an outside part to this city, IE where unbelievers, who are not able to bear the light reside. This is where unbelievers who are judged based on the life they have chosen, and they desired nothing to do with God, or to love others, or have faith.

Can people come into this Heavenly Jerusalem that are outside the Gate? Who are far out of proximity to God?

No one can say, though it doesn't never say the gates close these people off forever.

Agallagher said:

I do not believe in the way of universalism anymore, yet that of total reconcilationism, that all people have been saved from their sin because of Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

What is the difference between total and universal?

Agallagher said:

Now this is the confusion with universalism is that ALL are just going to go to heaven, but with no direct description of how this all plays out it's always seemingly convoluted in my opinion, though I respect my brothers who believe that way if that is what you desire so be it.

Click to expand...

This is a misunderstanding of Universal Restoration. We are not saying that everyone goes directly to heaven no matter how they have lived. How that happens is a bit sketchy. We see the outcome, but are not given the details on how it happens. The whole of creation is already saved. Most don't know it yet. And it needs to be completed. Everything back to its original state when God saw that it was good.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

Agallagher said:

Can people come into this Heavenly Jerusalem that are outside the Gate? Who are far out of proximity to God?

No one can say, though it doesn't never say the gates close these people off forever.

Click to expand...

Exactly. The gates are open.

@Saint Steven Judgement is probably the main difference, and that should be understood that we will be judged based on how we live our lives.

I agree with all scripture you shared in 1 Timothy, it just enforces the reconciliation of God and the world (people) that their sin is paid for.

Though God does no effect the will of the person in what make choices to do, good and bad. Although God can work in and around the experiences people have in this life that will eventually (the will of the person) break a person down after searching the ends of the earth for peace and happiness or relief from drugs, and look towards God who gives the spirit.

There is a scripture that I don’t know where it is at but it talks about how no make calls Jesus Lord except by the spirit.

What does that leave for the unbelievers, who willfully make the choice to not have anything to do with God at all?

What judgement does God give them?

Where do they Go?

These are fundamental beliefs that are found in total reconciliation that God will work out in the end for the benefit of his creation.

Shrewd disagree with me and said that total reconciliation are the same, and I respect his decision, however I disagree with that view. Cause it seems to me like there is no judgement.

If people believing in universalism expressed everything they seen and believed in their view it would be more openly seen and understood though it’s okay to believe if you make a choice to. Though I disagree completely because I don’t believe it to be the truth anymore.

April_Rose said:

Well,.. I'm happy believing what I believe so that's all that matters to me.

Click to expand...

Should we instead strive to believe what God wants us to.

Saint Steven said:

Why are you afraid of heresy?
Jesus' teachings were unorthodox at the time.

When orthodoxy is threatened, the orthodox cry "heresy".
The label "heretic" is a child of the Dark Ages.
Back when they burned people for what they believed.
Such finger-pointing is from the same mentality.

Click to expand...

I am not afraid. I feel sorry for you that you think that your way is right instead of God's way

Agallagher said:

Either way, it's imperative at least to me in a true sense to be able to come to common grounds even if is just on the basis of love itself.

Click to expand...

I have nothing in common with those who embrace heresy

Agallagher said:

There is a scripture that I don’t know where it is at but it talks about how no make calls Jesus Lord except by the spirit.

Click to expand...

That's 1 Corinthians 12:3. (see below)
Part of my whole presentation about acknowledging that Jesus Christ is Lord.
And as you are pointing out, this cannot happen except by the Spirit.
And if the Spirit is inhabiting a person, they are saved.
See the definition of "acknowledge" at the bottom. Most people discount what I am saying, claiming that the acknowledgement is forced. Not according to the NT Greek definition. It says, openly, whole-heartedly, without reservation.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says,
“Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Agallagher said:

Shrewd disagree with me and said that total reconciliation are the same, and I respect his decision, however I disagree with that view. Cause it seems to me like there is no judgement.

Click to expand...

I think the difference between you two is in the definition of judgment. This is a better way to look at that.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.