Am I on satan's side by default?

[ebia]

Well, that's what I'm here for
I say you're pigeon holing me.

Am I? In what way?

 

[undoing]

God has created everything, so naturally disbelief in Him would cause Him to be angry. But, Christianity is not about Gods anger, but rather his mercy. Despite the pain we as humans have put Him through, he gives us chance after chance to come to him, to know him.

I can't see how the option to go to him could be removed.

God is not simply capable of anger and wrath. Think about it this way, in Genises is says that God created man in his own image. The way we feel when we are rejected...He also feels. The way we feel when we are forgotten, He also feels. He is a passionate God, who wants a personal relationship with each and every one of us. However, the majority of people on this planet reject Him.

If forming a relationship with me is what he wants why then doesn't he approach me, knowing full well that I can't him? I mean, I don't just wish for things that I know are impossible, I think about what it takes to get them and decide if it's worth the effort.

The reason that it is said that you are on Jesus side or against is because God has drawn the line. He has put the option on the table, drawn the line, made the purposal, given us a choice to make. One choice is this, we can accept that He exist, and that he wants a personal relationship with us. To do this we must simply allow His Son to intorduce us to Him, and thus we become part of his family. He looks after us as His children, and we look up to Him as our Father.

I don't see how it's logical to assume that because I don't believe that I am rejecting. Assuming God to be real, if he were there holding out his arms and asking if I would spend time with him then you can use the dichotomy of accept/reject, the yes/no. That makes some sense, but then I might consider myself halucinating because seeing and hearing God aren't everyday events of nonbelievers. So I would probably say yes and then go and see the doctor.

The second option is this. We can chose to reject Him, and thus we open ourself willingly to the anger He feels since He has been rejected by the very person he created to love. Then his wrath is upon you. But the choice is entirely yours to make, and once you make your choice then you have chosen the side that you are truely on.

Ok this two sides thing you keep mentioning is only relevant to you as a believer. For instance, I don't believe in heaven and hell yet I do believe in right and wrong. If I follow what I know to be right then by your dichotomy of accepting God or rejecting Him, I am still on evils side; Then there are some who believe they can hear God speaking to them and who subjectively know that Jesus died for their sins who commit horendous crimes and are commited to hospital etc. What about the witch burnings? There's a good example of murder.

Satan knows he will not, and can not win. So he hopes to take as many of Gods precious and loved creation down with him. To do so, he will do whatever he can to get any of us to reject Jesus, and thus reject the invitation to a personal relationship with the Creator. Basically, when you reject God's very existance, you reject Jesus since you do not believe in God in the first place. Therefor, you are unintentionally doing just what Satan want.

That's your perception of where my nonbelief comes from. My view is that there are millions of these logical fallacies that are espoused about God but in reality I can't find anything out about God.

Does that mean you are evil? Not exactly. It just means you have been decieved. You still have the choice that you can make. Every breath you take is a chance that God gives you in His mercy to become part of the Family. That is how it goes.

I think to accept the point of view of God is to be deceived. I trust the truth and what I can experience, I think my imagination works best on things which I can see, hear, etc. If I form feelings and find meanings in things I still know which of those things are real and which are imaginary.

Am I? In what way?

Right here, for one example, where your meaning that my nonbelief is somehow contributing to some sort of problem, which you haven't specified as yet:

Thinking "I know what to do - I don't need to worry about God" is the ultimate source of everything that is wrong with the world.

I'm interested to learn what you think these problems are. I don't want to contribute to them unwittingly.

 

[ebia]

Right here, for one example, where your meaning that my nonbelief is somehow contributing to some sort of problem, which you haven't specified as yet:

I'm interested to learn what you think these problems are. I don't want to contribute to them unwittingly.

To oversimplify somewhat, in Judeo/Christian thinking everything that is wrong with the world - all the suffering, death, frustration,... - is the result of humanity not living up to its calling to be God's image in and for the world.

If you don't give God his due place you inevitably have something or somethings in that place (idolatory) and thereby fail to be the image of God that you need to be both for yourself and for the rest of creation. You fail to be fully human.

 

[undoing]

To oversimplify somewhat, in Judeo/Christian thinking everything that is wrong with the world - all the suffering, death, frustration[sup]a[/sup],... - is the result of humanity not living up to its calling to be God's image in and for the world.

If you don't give God his due place you inevitably have something or somethings in that place (idolatory)[sup]b[/sup] and thereby fail to be the image of God that you need to be both for yourself and for the rest of creation. You fail to be fully human.

a. Are you saying that suffering, death, and frustration are completely separate from religious belief? What about all the wars which occur over it? How about all the suffering which goes on because of it?

b. Lets assume that I don't worship anything, where would you find my idol?

 

[ebia]

a. Are you saying that suffering, death, and frustration are completely separate from religious belief?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by your question. We are all part of the problem. Jesus gives us the opportunity to be part of the solution as well.

b. Lets assume that I don't worship anything, where would you find my idol?

I don't know you remotely well enough to be able to tell you that.

 

[undoing]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by your question. We are all part of the problem. Jesus gives us the opportunity to be part of the solution as well.

I don't doubt for a minute that there is good intentioned motivation among Christians to make the world a better place. I also think there are many people who make the world a better place no less effectively through charity, protest movements, etc.
I also think there is a grey area which believers and nonbelievers alike can 'fit into' where actions aren't made for bettering the world anymore than the world is bettered by them being in it. Such people make those around them happy, or have other beneficial qualities to those near to them.
Not being religious shouldn't necessarely make a person a 'contributer to the worlds evils', in my opinion.

I don't know you remotely well enough to be able to tell you that.

I think my point is that any person who worships nothing at all has no idol. Overindulgence in something like alcohol consumption, sex, aren't really forms of an idol, but assuming a person "worships/overindulges" in nothing (in your opinion) would you say they also weren't subject to idolatory?

 

[ebia]

I don't doubt for a minute that there is good intentioned motivation among Christians to make the world a better place.

We aren't part of the solution because we try to solve the problem, but because we are on-board with God's solution to the problem. What we do by way of building for the Kingdom, and living in anticipation of that Kingdom is simply the outworking of that. God's solution is to rework us back into his image in and for creation.

Not being religious shouldn't necessarely make a person a 'contributer to the worlds evils', in my opinion.

That would appear to be because you haven't grasped what we should be, so that you are satisified with where we are at.

I think my point is that any person who worships nothing at all has no idol.

Because you have too narrow a view of worship and idolatory.

Overindulgence in something like alcohol consumption, sex, aren't really forms of an idol, but assuming a person "worships/overindulges" in nothing (in your opinion) would you say they also weren't subject to idolatory?

Yes.

 

[undoing]

We aren't part of the solution because we try to solve the problem, but because we are on-board with God's solution to the problem[sub]a[/sub]. What we do by way of building for the Kingdom, and living in anticipation of that Kingdom[sub]b[/sub] is simply the outworking of that. God's solution is to rework us back into his image in and for creation[sub]c[/sub].


That would appear to be because you haven't grasped what we should be, so that you are satisified with where we are at[sub]d[/sub].


Because you have too narrow a view of worship and idolatory[sub]e[/sub].


Yes.

a. What is God's solution to "the" problem?; it's almost nonsense, but I'm sure you're not saying it correctly.

b. So it someone isn't working toward entering heaven then their earthly deeds are erroneous? Sounds more like self righteousness to me.

c. So why do I need to accept God's existence in order to learn what God wishes so as to put that into practice? Seems competely self defeating to me, why not make his intentions accessable world wide in the exact same format?

d. Please fill me in, I'm all ears.

e. Here you seem to say that my understanding on idolotry is inferior. Tell me what is idolised after everything there is ceases to be worshipped?!

 

[ebia]

a. What is God's solution to "the" problem?; it's almost nonsense, but I'm sure you're not saying it correctly.

Because the worldview in which it makes sense is radically different from your worldview.

b. So it someone isn't working toward entering heaven then their earthly deeds are erroneous?

Some would say that, I wouldn't. A right answer is a right answer however it is arrived at, and right behaviour is a right behaviour however it is arrived at. However, what is ultimately required to put creation back on course is a transformation far beyond what we can achieve on our own, so that the thinking behind our behaviour is ultimately important.

c. So why do I need to accept God's existence in order to learn what God wishes so as to put that into practice? Seems competely self defeating to me, why not make his intentions accessable world wide in the exact same format?

Because what God wants is for you to be transformed into his image in Creation. To recognise him as Lord and bring his justice and mercy into the world.

d. Please fill me in, I'm all ears.

I couldn't possibly achieve that in a couple of paragraphs, but I suggest reading and re-reading the narratives of the life, death and resurrection of the representative human who is the true image of the living God - Jesus of Nazareth.

e. Here you seem to say that my understanding on idolotry is inferior. Tell me what is idolised after everything there is ceases to be worshipped?!

Whatever you put trust in when your trust should be in God, whatever you enjoy when your enjoyment should be in God, whatever you value when you should be valueing God, whatever you choose to do when you should be worshipping God, whatever motivates you when you should be motivated by God, whatever directs your choices when they should be directed by God, whatever someone sees when they look at you when what they should see is the reflected image of God, ...

You cannot not worship anything - all you do is cease to acknowledge what you are doing because it doesn't look like what you imagine by the word. When you put anything in a place that should be occupied by God that is idolatory.

 

[undoing]

Because the worldview in which it makes sense is radically different from your worldview.

Well if you can describe it using english then it must be nonsense.

Some would say that, I wouldn't. A right answer is a right answer however it is arrived at, and right behaviour is a right behaviour however it is arrived at. However, what is ultimately required to put creation back on course is a transformation far beyond what we can achieve on our own, so that the thinking behind our behaviour is ultimately important.

Thinking leads to action. What is "right" about a thought or action depends on effectiveness of that thought-action in accomplishing what it was intended to, the negative effects the thought-action has (such as time wasted, adverse consequences, etc) and in terms of righteousness it is entirely dependent on interpretation of each individual.
So "right" is really only meaningful to the person calling it "good" etc (regardless what the reason is for that persons perception).

Because what God wants is for you to be transformed into his image in Creation. To recognise him as Lord and bring his justice and mercy into the world.

Ok, from your perspective that's what life's meaning is about.

I couldn't possibly achieve that in a couple of paragraphs, but I suggest reading and re-reading the narratives of the life, death and resurrection of the representative human who is the true image of the living God - Jesus of Nazareth.

I've read the narratives, I didn't find them to be a perfect match at all. Even I could edit the first four books of the bible and make the same story consistent.

Whatever you put trust in when your trust should be in God, whatever you enjoy when your enjoyment should be in God, whatever you value when you should be valueing God, whatever you choose to do when you should be worshipping God, whatever motivates you when you should be motivated by God, whatever directs your choices when they should be directed by God, whatever someone sees when they look at you when what they should see is the reflected image of God, ...

This sounds a little bit preachy but I thankyou for sharing.

You cannot not worship anything - all you do is cease to acknowledge what you are doing because it doesn't look like what you imagine by the word. When you put anything in a place that should be occupied by God that is idolatory.

I thought everything was meant to be God
Sounds like more nonsense to me, next you should be telling me that everything should be followed up with God!
So that:
Car = God
Car = idol
therefore
God = idol

 

[I-can-see]

You have made your choice then. I am not going to try and convince you.

 

[ephraimanesti]

My view is that there are millions of these logical fallacies that are espoused about God but in reality I can't find anything out about God.

MY DEAR BROTHER,

Your primary problem is that you are trying to "reach God" in your head through collecting information and exercising your reasoning ability (of which you appear to be unduly proud), as opposed to experientially developing a relationship with Him in your heart.

Head knowledge of God is of absolutely no value unless it feeds an already existing relationship--helps it to grow and reach greater depths (primarily of surrender on our part.) That is why our Lord tells us that we must become as little children or we will never be able to connect with Him and enter His Kingdom: "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." (Luke 18:16b-17) Children, in case you have forgotten, experience and then reason from the experience--not the other way around.

i have read myriads of your Posts, and it quickly becomes obvious that your "searching" for knowledge regarding God is merely an intellectual exercise--a mind game--and not, as it should be, a desperate seeking for contact and relationship with Him. This course of action is a futile waste of time, given that thereby you can only learn everything about nothing and nothing about everything through your intellectualizing.

The only way to apprehend God is to experience Him. ALL SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE IS EXPERIENTAL.
The only way to experience Him is to surrender to Him.
The only way to surrender to Him is humbly on your knees.
The only way to fall humbly on your knees before Him is to look within and see yourself rather than looking without, hoping to catch a glimpse of God.
"KNOW THYSELF" and everything else will fall into place.

A BOND-SLAVE OF CHRIST,
ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

I have come across the line: "if you're not with jesus then you are, by default, with satan", but I'd like to imagine that most christians would consider this statement a little immature, or thoughtless.
Is it correct in your eyes for all atheists to belong with satan?
Why/why not?

MY BROTHER,

Why are you blaming God for the consequences of your freely-made choices?

God has provided you with all the information you need to choose life--(Romans 1:18-22)--and yet you have wontedly chosen death instead. How is God at fault?

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[undoing]

You have made your choice then. I am not going to try and convince you.

What choice have I made? Joining this forum was a choice, replying to this post was a choice, being unconvinced about God isn't. Is there a God? I don't know, I'm not going to ignore the evidence should it arrive.

MY BROTHER,

Why are you blaming God for the consequences of your freely-made choices?

You said before that I should develop a relationship experientially without any knowledge of Him, correct? So your idea of my choice is that I'm at fault for not loving something which I don't know exists and wont until after I'm dead!? I can't be responsible for being more reasonable than this.

God has provided you with all the information you need to choose life--(Romans 1:18-22)--and yet you have wontedly chosen death instead. How is God at fault?

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

The bible isn't information, it's little more than blindly followed historical heresay; if not heresay.

 

[ephraimanesti]

What choice have I made?

MY DEAR BROTHER,

You have chosen to chose your eyes to avoid seeing THE Light and then persistently and falsely attempt to blame the Light for not revealing Himself to you. That is your foundational choice by which the rest of your house of cards is supported.

Joining this forum was a choice, replying to this post was a choice, being unconvinced about God isn't. Is there a God? I don't know, I'm not going to ignore the evidence should it arrive.

It has already arrived and you have indeed already ignored it:

"What may be known about God is plain to all, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew of God's existence, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile an their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools." (Romans 1:18-22)

You said before that I should develop a relationship experientially without any knowledge of Him, correct?

You obviously need enough information about God--which the Bible amply provides--in order to know how to approach Him, how to offer yourself to Him, and what to expect when you do. Everything beyond this is largely irrelevant and is mainly the purview of theologians. When it comes to a relationship with Abba, little children trump theologians every time!

You have all the knowledge you need--ACT UPON IT!

So your idea of my choice is that I'm at fault for not loving something which I don't know exists and wont until after I'm dead!? I can't be responsible for being more reasonable than this.

You are completely responsible in God's eyes since you have been given the truth--both through His Son, Jesus Christ, through His apostles and disciples down through the ages, and through His Written Word, the Bible. Nothing could be clearer to those truly seeking.

As we are told, "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you." Death adds nothing, especially in the area of God's existence. Then, we will see Him as He is, but this knowledge will just build upon a relationship which exists in the here and now--for those who desire it, that is.

i just came across an interesting quote this morning, which i believe applies to your self-imposed "situation":

"When it comes down to it, many of us do not really want to be led by God through the Power of His Holy Spirit. Or, more fundamentally, many of us don't want to be led by anyone other than ourselves. The whole idea of giving up control (or, rather, the delusion of it) is terrifying, isn't it? Do you thrive on controlling the bigt and small in your life? Does the thought of letting go and listening to the Spirit's guidance scare you and only make you cling tighter to what you think you have?" (from FORGOTTEN GOD by Francis Chan)

HONESTY?

The bible isn't information, it's little more than blindly followed historical heresay; if not heresay.

Well, my brother, to Christians it is God's Holy Word--given to us to guide us into a Loving relationship with Him. No one on the path to God's Kingdom is blind, only those who refuse to stop hiding in the darkness and step out into the light--Golems all!

You have chose to label it as you have above because to do otherwise would be to admit to God's existence and the actions expected of you given this fact. You methodology, in this regard is exactly the same as color-blind individual labeling a gorgeous sunset as a "mudpuddle" and turning away in order to avoid admitting to his disability--even to himself--and surely spiritual blindness is the most serious type of blindness of all, if for no other reason that it is self-imposed.

MAY GOD GRANT YOU THE COURAGE TO OPEN YOUR EYES!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Pure760]

In response to the first post, yes all athiests are with satan but its not a big deal because most people are with satan no matter what religeon they are. To not have satan in your life you must not sin, its extreamly simple but sadly not many people want to understand that, they prefer complication, but they can.. and will.. eventually.

The simple thought that a girl/guy is attractive. Lust.
Wanting somthing other than God. Greed.
Thinking you know somthing others do not. Pride.
Watching TV. Sloth.
Eating anything that isnt good for you or wanting to. Gluttony.
Wrath, Envy are pretty self explanitory.

When you perfectly understand that no sin will satisfy you the way that God can will you no longer be 'sided with satan.'

 

[undoing]

MY DEAR BROTHER,

You have chosen to chose your eyes to avoid seeing THE Light and then persistently and falsely attempt to blame the Light for not revealing Himself to you. That is your foundational choice by which the rest of your house of cards is supported.

My eyes are open, I see the light which is reflected and emitted by its source. My eyes work normally, my inner eye does too notice another has likened my reason to haphazardly balanced cards forming an imposible place to live within.

It has already arrived and you have indeed already ignored it:

"What may be known about God is plain to all, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--His eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew of God's existence, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile an their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools." (Romans 1:18-22)

You call this evidence I understand it as writing. Basically, the idea being said in this is that in order to see one must believe first. When someone believes then they can see the world through that belief. No?

You obviously need enough information about God--which the Bible amply provides--in order to know how to approach Him, how to offer yourself to Him, and what to expect when you do. Everything beyond this is largely irrelevant and is mainly the purview of theologians. When it comes to a relationship with Abba, little children trump theologians every time!

I know what is required to 'be at one' with God. That's easy, it can also be happy and pleasant to feel like there's a special someone in the clouds there, all knowing, caring, watching my every move "ahhh"

You have all the knowledge you need--ACT UPON IT!

Again, this isn't what I call knowledge. A book has an author, in the case of the entire bible/s there are several authors. A book is always written from an author's understanding. So the knowledge you say I've obtained is only the knowledge of the authors of the bible.

You are completely responsible in God's eyes since you have been given the truth--both through His Son, Jesus Christ, through His apostles and disciples down through the ages, and through His Written Word, the Bible. Nothing could be clearer to those truly seeking.

Who said I was seeking? In fact I've said that isn't my interest here; I've outlined my interests being mostly to understand Christians and to better understand how I can communicate with them with consideration to my person views being a possible source of antagonism. I would like to think that I am entitled to my opinions and aren't required to answer untruthfully.
Although in terms of coming to find actual evidence in favour of God's existence, I'm happy to take it on board.

As we are told, "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you." Death adds nothing, especially in the area of God's existence. Then, we will see Him as He is, but this knowledge will just build upon a relationship which exists in the here and now--for those who desire it, that is.

I'd like that relationship to be mutual and two sided

i just came across an interesting quote this morning, which i believe applies to your self-imposed "situation":

"When it comes down to it, many of us do not really want to be led by God through the Power of His Holy Spirit. Or, more fundamentally, many of us don't want to be led by anyone other than ourselves. The whole idea of giving up control (or, rather, the delusion of it) is terrifying, isn't it? Do you thrive on controlling the bigt and small in your life? Does the thought of letting go and listening to the Spirit's guidance scare you and only make you cling tighter to what you think you have?" (from FORGOTTEN GOD by Francis Chan)

This is a false analogy. You can undoubtedly understand that everyone is swayed to some degree, meaning that absolute autonomy is practically impossible. To go on to say through argument that it's therefore follows that those who don't relinquish their "non-existent" autonomy to do those things which are apparently demanded from God is akin to living in a falsehood is untrue.
The statement made is that if you can't recognise the falsehood in the statement itself then you might as well succumb to the absurd solution.

HONESTY?

Please

Well, my brother, to Christians it is God's Holy Word--given to us to guide us into a Loving relationship with Him. No one on the path to God's Kingdom is blind, only those who refuse to stop hiding in the darkness and step out into the light--Golems all!

Now you resort to name calling, just says it all.

You have chose to label it as you have above because to do otherwise would be to admit to God's existence and the actions expected of you given this fact. You methodology, in this regard is exactly the same as color-blind individual labeling a gorgeous sunset as a "mudpuddle" and turning away in order to avoid admitting to his disability--even to himself--and surely spiritual blindness is the most serious type of blindness of all, if for no other reason that it is self-imposed.

No, I'm not turning away from the observable, empiracle, parsimonious, comprehensiveness, internal consistency, testability, usefulness, or acceptability for any of the criteria of evaluating theories.

MAY GOD GRANT YOU THE COURAGE TO OPEN YOUR EYES!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

I keep my open for 99.9% of my conscious life, where might I see the real deal?

 

[I-can-see]

The evidence has already arrived. You have just not accepted it. Therefor you have made your choice to disbelieve the evidence. The bible is not just a religious book, it is a historical document. Many historians have cross referenced events in the bible with other literature and historical documents, and found that the bible is just as valid as any other historical writings. You believe that the events of Pearl Harbor happened right? For what reason? Because it is documented, and there are eye witness accounts of it.

But, what about 2000 years from now? Do you think pearl harbor would just become a myth? Of course not, even old Greek and Roman battles have survived until today, and people believe them why? Because of documentation and eye witness accounts.

The bible is full of documentation and eye witness accounts. It also has made several predictions on the future that HAVE come true. Several prophets in the bible predicted that the nation of Israel would fall, and its people scattered across the earth. Then the Babylonian empire came and did just as predicted, after them the Greeks came, then the Romans. Then the Jewish people were scattered across the earth. That is what made the holocaust so easy for the Nazi. The exile of the Jewish people from Israel is documented in other places outside the bible as well.

Then the bible makes another prediction. It says that the Jewish people will return to their land, and Israel would become a nation again. Then in 1948, it happened. An event that had been for told more then 2000 years earlier.

The proof is right in front of you. Historians acknowledge the bible as an accurate account of history.

Historical/Scientific Evidence of Validity of Bible and Chrsitianity

You ask for evidence, and the evidence is all around you. You refuse to believe the evidence because you have made the choice not to believe. What more do you want? You want God to send an archangel to knock you upside the head for proof? We have all the proof we could ever want. Eye witness accounts, historical accuracy, and prophecy come true.

I have mentioned just a few examples of the proof. There are many more proofs of the bible, and of Gods existence, and of Jesus birth and resurrection.

 

[undoing]

The evidence has already arrived. You have just not accepted it. Therefor you have made your choice to disbelieve the evidence. The bible is not just a religious book, it is a historical document. Many historians have cross referenced events in the bible with other literature and historical documents, and found that the bible is just as valid as any other historical writings. You believe that the events of Pearl Harbor happened right? For what reason? Because it is documented, and there are eye witness accounts of it.

I don't discount an overall historical accuracy being reflected in the bible, this includes what were perceived acts of God, etc. And when those writers seen the world they seen it through their belief and so their own writing would show this. I think some of the stories are probably based on dreams but might have even omitted stating them as such in order to not offend God. Religion has these sorts of elements.

But, what about 2000 years from now? Do you think pearl harbor would just become a myth? Of course not, even old Greek and Roman battles have survived until today, and people believe them why? Because of documentation and eye witness accounts.

No, history can be substantiated to some extent. If I were more skeptical about the floods and droughts etc from the times the bible was writen, I'd look for additional historical records from that period. I could draw a conclusion based on whether the records were consistent, or I could scrutinise each record's validity.

The bible is full of documentation and eye witness accounts. It also has made several predictions on the future that HAVE come true. Several prophets in the bible predicted that the nation of Israel would fall[sup]A[/sup], and its people scattered across the earth[sup]B[/sup]. Then the Babylonian empire came and did just as predicted, after them the Greeks came, then the Romans. Then the Jewish people were scattered across the earth. That is what made the holocaust so easy for the Nazi. The exile of the Jewish people from Israel is documented in other places outside the bible as well.

A: This operates according to natural principle. 'What goes up must inevitably come down again'.
B: Funnily enough people do tend to travel. This isn't remarkable imo.

Then the bible makes another prediction. It says that the Jewish people will return to their land, and Israel would become a nation again. Then in 1948, it happened. An event that had been for told more then 2000 years earlier.

So the motivations for some to act in accordance with their beliefs don't account for anything, it is purely prediction?? What about that? can you honestly say that having that account in the bible hasn't contributed to such actions?

The proof is right in front of you.

Heresay isn't the same as proof.

You ask for evidence, and the evidence is all around you. You refuse to believe the evidence because you have made the choice not to believe. What more do you want? You want God to send an archangel to knock you upside the head for proof? We have all the proof we could ever want. Eye witness accounts, historical accuracy, and prophecy come true.

If were to have actual proof I would undeniably believe in God's existence. Prophecy? I see vague and probable truisms. Eye witness accounts are heresay, unless they can substantiate their claim to the greater extent and even then I can only decide that their story matches what is real. Such as a woman runs in screaming that she seen God and he threw a lightening bolt at an atheist temple which burst into flames. I could run out there and see whether the building was actually alight (or had been), but I can't know if she lit the fire herself, was covering for someone else, or if it had really only been a lightening bolt (until authorities could determin that); if it had been a lightening bolt all I have is her word that it was God himself. Maybe she just believes it was him, maybe she is suffering some shock. Who can be sure?

I have mentioned just a few examples of the proof. There are many more proofs of the bible, and of Gods existence, and of Jesus birth and resurrection.

Yes I understand that the bible supports your views of God. You follow the bible. In terms of validity the bible doesn't hold much weight for supporting itself with it's own argument. Clearly I can claim that the bible is biased toward the Christian religion. I think this view is valid.

 

[I-can-see]

The bible biased? Then you have no idea. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all have the same foundation. The bible is most of that foundation. So how is the bible biased towards christians?

Also, I challenge you to present another country that has been destroyed and it inhabitants scattered across the globe, and then re established. After all this time humanity has been on this earth, it has never happened.

Sure, countries have bounced back before. But never after it's inhabitants were scattered across the earth by invading empires.